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2015/07/02 23:27:26
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
If anything, one model = one model means that list building is more important than ever. Especially because list building is done on the fly during deployment. Horde armies are basically dead in that a "horde army" used to be lots of little dudes. Whether you go by Models or Warscrolls or anything, as long as one model is considered equal to any other one model, only the strongest models will see the table. Because there is literally no reason other than "I want to handicap myself" to do so.
Er, no. If the scenario specifies exactly which models to bring to the battle, there will be no list building. Your line of reasoning assumes that the scenarios will allow for flexibility in this regard. My point is that it doesn't have to be so. you may not like that idea. but that doesn't mean it's not possible.
Ah, I misunderstood what you were saying then.
Still, it's pretty sad that the only way forward for anything but "make stuff up" play would be "play one of the six given scenarios with the given forces". I mean, that frankly sounds like the worst tournament scene ever! I play skaven, and while I'm aware that Warscrolls for the units are coming, without some way to balance them I have literally 0 guidelines (not even the 6 scenarios) to help me play a balanced game against my friend's dwarves. If Warhammer will literally come down to "make crap up or play Khorne vs Lightning Marines", well, it's been a fun ride at least.
Well, I'm speculating of course, but if it's to be a really simple game in order to make it easier to sell to a new audience, simplicity may be key, rather than tournament feasibility. Add to that a "lock in" effect and you've got a business model.
And I'm not sure I'll totally dislike this.
It's not just tournament feasibility. If we're locked into the six scenarios, then we are literally down to two armies in Age of Sigmar. Between my friends, we own every single Warhammer Fantasy army except Warriors of Chaos. Which is funny, given that the box set is Warriors of Chaos and a new army! I mean, they're effectively squatting all the old armies. Yes, yes, I realize that they're releasing free Warscrolls for all the existing units, but if I don't have a frame work to use them in, what good does that do me? How do I create a fun, balanced game with a friend if the only thing we have to go on are two armies and six scenarios?
Even releasing new armies doesn't really help if all they do is release "balance" via scenarios with prescribed army lists too. I mean, it's terrible game design and even more terrible marketing. Why should I buy anything beyond exactly enough models for the scenario?
Basically it comes down to: If GW didn't want to make rules anymore, just figures, they should have just farmed out the rules to someone else and made figures like they have apparently want to do for awhile now. If they were intent on making their own rules, they should at least make rules that work.
2015/07/02 23:31:45
Subject: Re:Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
If anything, one model = one model means that list building is more important than ever. Especially because list building is done on the fly during deployment. Horde armies are basically dead in that a "horde army" used to be lots of little dudes. Whether you go by Models or Warscrolls or anything, as long as one model is considered equal to any other one model, only the strongest models will see the table. Because there is literally no reason other than "I want to handicap myself" to do so.
Er, no. If the scenario specifies exactly which models to bring to the battle, there will be no list building. Your line of reasoning assumes that the scenarios will allow for flexibility in this regard. My point is that it doesn't have to be so. you may not like that idea. but that doesn't mean it's not possible.
Ah, I misunderstood what you were saying then.
Still, it's pretty sad that the only way forward for anything but "make stuff up" play would be "play one of the six given scenarios with the given forces". I mean, that frankly sounds like the worst tournament scene ever! I play skaven, and while I'm aware that Warscrolls for the units are coming, without some way to balance them I have literally 0 guidelines (not even the 6 scenarios) to help me play a balanced game against my friend's dwarves. If Warhammer will literally come down to "make crap up or play Khorne vs Lightning Marines", well, it's been a fun ride at least.
Well, I'm speculating of course, but if it's to be a really simple game in order to make it easier to sell to a new audience, simplicity may be key, rather than tournament feasibility. Add to that a "lock in" effect and you've got a business model.
And I'm not sure I'll totally dislike this.
It's not just tournament feasibility. If we're locked into the six scenarios, then we are literally down to two armies in Age of Sigmar. Between my friends, we own every single Warhammer Fantasy army except Warriors of Chaos. Which is funny, given that the box set is Warriors of Chaos and a new army! I mean, they're effectively squatting all the old armies. Yes, yes, I realize that they're releasing free Warscrolls for all the existing units, but if I don't have a frame work to use them in, what good does that do me? How do I create a fun, balanced game with a friend if the only thing we have to go on are two armies and six scenarios?
Even releasing new armies doesn't really help if all they do is release "balance" via scenarios with prescribed army lists too. I mean, it's terrible game design and even more terrible marketing. Why should I buy anything beyond exactly enough models for the scenario?
Basically it comes down to: If GW didn't want to make rules anymore, just figures, they should have just farmed out the rules to someone else and made figures like they have apparently want to do for awhile now. If they were intent on making their own rules, they should at least make rules that work.
Farming out the rules writing is what their competitors do:
To be fair on the tournament front, most tournaments don't run stock scenarios - the very popular ETC pretty much rebalanced the whole game in 8th, so I'm sure if necessary someone will do it for Age of Sigmar.
2015/07/02 23:34:51
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
It seems like 95% of the people are missing that GeeDubs is not going to cater to a fanbase that barely even exists.
.
Nobody is missing that .
WHFB used to be GW's flagship game. The audience has dwindled due to decisions GW made. Instead of trying to correct their errors in an effort to entice that audience back, they've decided to just scrap the game and start over.
And that's a valid business decision.... But it's not one that will make existing customers happy if what they're wanting is for the game they play now (or did play, and would like to return to) to continue and be improved.
I'm just going to go ahead and deny that round bases will be a thing. IT'S JUST A RUMOUR PEOPLE! Everyone should calm down and wait till they've bought the new game before they rush to judgements. You have to buy the game to know whats in the game.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/07/02 23:44:43
2015/07/02 23:45:30
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
4th edition had I believe a cut down set of rules (the one with ultras and nids).
It had the full core rules , just left out the campaign and alternate scenarios.
Yep. Like all the smaller format books, it was the full rule book. The hardcovers simply had additional Appendices, hence my "12 page" joke.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/07/02 23:46:21
You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was
2015/07/02 23:48:53
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
Big fan of most of the art we're seeing. Is this why some of the recent 40k books have suffered in that department?
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
2015/07/02 23:50:23
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
Reading back, my way of speech was condescending. In that sense, I was wrong and ineffective.I apologize for that and recognize it as a mistake, and perhaps immature.
I also recognize that GW may have royally destroyed WHFB and that would be terrible. It's a giant game with amazing models that need to have a tactically rewarding game based around them and the world they inhabit. I desperately want to invest in it (besides my daemons) because the models are incredible and the game system was apparently complex and rich, generally.
I still recognize the statistically improbable chance that something in the future may change what appears now to be a shallow replacement into something good. The WD article that stated they would release books for the game in the future. The advertisement of what looks like a campaign book coming out. The possibility that the starter box may be a balanced scenario package designed for extreme ease of play and the downloadable warscrolls include a point cost and downloadable rules include more structure. Many possibilities exist that could in very slight ways change the game back into a rewarding system from the ghost that's been represented in rumours. Also, you're correct, of course everybody is entitled to change their minds if it's awesome and they thought it would suck. I hope that happens. But maybe GW just killed it instead.
As for disliking me, that sucks. I didn't intend for that to happen. I just don't get the point of being so emotionally charged until you know the thing's dead. I could have just said "What's the point?" but nobody would have really been affected by that. I think there's still hope, or a statistically improbable chance at least.
Also, that meme you created was awesome and genuinely made me laugh. haha.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/02 23:54:03
7500 pts Chaos Daemons
2015/07/02 23:55:57
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
ImAGeek wrote: I kind of sadistically would be interested to see the fallout of this kind of reboot but for 40k...
We already did this.
Remember 40k3?
Best edition of 40k, ever.
Wait, 3rd Ed 40K had no points values, no army lists, completely obliterated the galaxy in which the product is set and started the fluff from scratch? Damn, I drank a lot more during my teens than I thought, apparently I blacked the eff out for several years straight and invented a completely fictional version of 40K that was nothing like that.
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
2015/07/03 00:02:13
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
This looks awful. I actually like the idea of "alignments" for armies and the ability to use warscrolls to mix and match warbands. Lots of fluff opportunities there.
However, the fact that the fluff is boring, boring, stargate good vs evil garbage makes that really unappealing. I really hope they've got some kind of army creation structure coming. This is nutso.
Thought for the day
2015/07/03 00:23:41
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
Yodhrin wrote: Wait, 3rd Ed 40K had no points values, no army lists, completely obliterated the galaxy in which the product is set and started the fluff from scratch? Damn, I drank a lot more during my teens than I thought, apparently I blacked the eff out for several years straight and invented a completely fictional version of 40K that was nothing like that.
I'm withholding final-final-FINAL judgement til I see all the warscrolls. Some people have been comparing the AOS 4 page rules to MTG, which I think is a good comparison - when a new Magic set comes out it gets judged by its cards, not the rule booklet that comes with it. The interactions and combos are what make or break a set.
That said, I don't have particularly high hopes that GW's rules have suddenly leveled-up to be on par with WOTC or PP. Oh well, we'll see in a couple of days.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/03 00:41:13
DA:70+S--G-M+B++I+Pw40k09++DA+/hWD-R-T(BG)DM+
2015/07/03 00:43:42
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
I just picked up my WD75. First of all, the leaked photos do the models no justice. Holy crap, the actual photography is amazing. The Khorne Goretide models are AMAZING. Skuldrak the Khorgorath (the Hellbrute) looks freaking awesome, and Threx Skullbrand (the fella with giant round banner thing) is out of this world. It's quite possibly the first time ever I've been excited about Chaos. Even the Bloodreavers (Fantasy cultists by another name) look really, really awesome.
The Angels have a really lame name (Prosecutors, LOL). But the models and images look spectacular. The wings are very cool -- they make me think "Fan of Knives". The Lord Celestant (cat guy), Lord Relictor (banner dude) and Retributors (2h hammer guys) are incredible.
The other thing that's pretty cool are the two new gold paints. The basecoat looks more gold than Balthazar (FINALLY), and the light gold paint sits between Auric Armor Gold and Runefang Steel, which is wonderful, if you care about such things. I don't know about the Flayed One flesh.
The other thing to note is that WD75 is totally sold out, with long waiting lists at stores where people want one.
Gonna go assemble my free Stormcast Eternal!
2015/07/03 00:44:42
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
Relapse wrote: The FLGS here is pretty stoked on the game and giving a free $35 dollar box of whatever someone who buys a copy wants.
I'd probably drop the cash if mine did that, too.
I mean, I guess I could save myself $90 and just buy the $35 box, but the Chaos blokes in the box are growing on me.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/07/03 00:49:27
You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was
2015/07/03 00:55:19
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
Talys wrote: The other thing that's pretty cool are the two new gold paints. The basecoat looks more gold than Balthazar (FINALLY), and the light gold paint sits between Auric Armor Gold and Runefang Steel, which is wonderful, if you care about such things. I don't know about the Flayed One flesh.
Wait, we have a new base paint to replace the good old shining gold finally? I miss GWs old metallics (the new ones separate too easily) but I would be onboard with a new shining gold for a few pots.
2015/07/03 00:57:02
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
Relapse wrote: The FLGS here is pretty stoked on the game and giving a free $35 dollar box of whatever someone who buys a copy wants.
I'd probably drop the cash if mine did that, too.
I mean, I guess I could save myself $90 and just buy the $35 box, but the Chaos blokes in the box are growing on me.
Yep, it's kind of tempting. What's ironic in a good way is that I was getting away from Fantasy and rebased all my demons for 40k before the rumors started coming out about the new Warhammer.
2015/07/03 00:58:45
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
Torga_DW wrote: I'm just going to go ahead and deny that round bases will be a thing. IT'S JUST A RUMOUR PEOPLE! Everyone should calm down and wait till they've bought the new game before they rush to judgements. You have to buy the game to know whats in the game.
There's direct scans from the WD this coming week that explain bases are irrelevant. You can use any shape base you want. Round bases are a 'thing' just as square ones or triangular ones or hex ones are.
Or, you might have been sarcastic... hard to tell.
"Wheels within wheels, in a spiral array, a pattern so grand and complex.
Time after time we lose sight of the way, our causes can't see their effects."
2015/07/03 01:07:05
Subject: Re:Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
For list building, I see nothing wrong with something like this:
10 warscrolls
1-3 heroes
0-2 monsters
2+ core
No unit may have more then 25 wounds (25 can be changed to any number agreed upon). That would mean you could play with 20 1 wound skeletons (aka horde) or 10 2 wound chosen etc etc. Considering that looking at the warscrolls we have seen then that 20 man skeleton unit would have the capability of killing anything due to rolling on a fixed number (saves make it harder of course).
That is no different to me then the previous fantasy army composition tables, or 40k:
2000 points
No super heavies
No Lords of war
maximum 3 sources (detachments/formations).
Personally I think people are forgetting the fact that there is rumoured to be 3 or 4 months of fantasy releases, my local FLGS was telling me yesterday, most questions I asked he said come back Saturday but one that stood out was that he said that going forward there would be a very heavy focus on campaigns which would have campaign specific rules and ways of playing/building lists etc etc. He did say that some house rules would always needed but pointed out that we already do this for old fantasy as well as 40k.
The problem is at the moment we haven't seen those scenarios and a lot of people are assuming the worst.
Fez
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/07/03 01:07:57
-- $k 
-- 9k 
-- 6k 
-- 4k 
-- 
Thought for the day 
Orks
GreyKnights