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Yea a part of me wonders with the Sansa/Ramsay scene was there bring back the "grit" or something. You know something like a Red Wedding moment. I mean looking at the previous 5 episodes in this season there wasn't that much grit really for this show.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Oh dear. Looks like Bronne is fethed.

Spoiler:

The Dornish love to poison their weapons. Especially the Red Viper and his daughters.

Feminist twitter outrage aside, the Ramsay - Sansa thing makes perfect sense for Ramsay, its exactly the sort of thing that he would do (and does in fact do in the books, but to a different character). Seems they've completely thrown the book Sansa's story arc out the window. Guess they decided it wasn't interesting enough for the show. So really, this had to happen to Sansa, because for intents and purposes she is "Fake Arya", and this is exactly what happened to Fake Arya in the book.

In fact what happened to Jeyne Poole was worse because Ramsay had Reek...lubricate her... for him. <hurls>

Not that I'm saying that this scene was good writing or anything.

 gorgon wrote:
Could there be a twist coming in the next episode? That would at least excuse the bad writing, although not the trolling for outrage.

Assuming that...

[BOOK SPOILER/POSSIBLE TV SPOILER]

Spoiler:

Mance Rayder really has been killed off for good, and he wasn't switched with someone else disguised by Melisandre to look like him for the execution...Then it means that there is no-one being sent to Winterfell to rescue "Fake Arya"/Sansa. In the books, Mance and a few Spearwives went in disguise to Winterfell to free "Arya", and started offing various Bolton soldiers and servants, creating a climate of fear and distrust.

So maybe Sansa herself will be the "Ghost of Winterfell", and start offing people for revenge. Starting with Miranda.

Thats all I can think of...

 Alpharius wrote:
It looks as if you're bound to be continually disappointed here...

So is Grey Worm.

Agreed - Its Ramsey Bolten / Snow - why did anyone think that was going to go well? He had already said he was looking forward to the wedding night WITH Miranda taking part...........
His dad was cut in the same cloth - yeah I killed your mothers husband, then raped her and nearly had her horsewhipped and you thrown in the moat when she came to me with a son.

Now I guess the really unpleasant stuff is more palatable in the books as its not an actress or actor going through the (often very graphic scenes).

There is of course a certain lady Knight and Stark loyalists nearby - but apparently Sansa needs to climb the really old and dodgy tower and light a candle ................when she has a moment.

I forgot it was fake Arya and not fake Sansa in the books................

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

[BOOK SPOILER/POSSIBLE TV SPOILER]

Spoiler:

Mance Rayder really has been killed off for good, and he wasn't switched with someone else disguised by Melisandre to look like him for the execution...Then it means that there is no-one being sent to Winterfell to rescue "Fake Arya"/Sansa. In the books, Mance and a few Spearwives went in disguise to Winterfell to free "Arya", and started offing various Bolton soldiers and servants, creating a climate of fear and distrust.

So maybe Sansa herself will be the "Ghost of Winterfell", and start offing people for revenge. Starting with Miranda.

Thats all I can think of...

 Blood Hawk wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

[BOOK SPOILER/POSSIBLE TV SPOILER]

Spoiler:

Mance Rayder really has been killed off for good, and he wasn't switched with someone else disguised by Melisandre to look like him for the execution...Then it means that there is no-one being sent to Winterfell to rescue "Fake Arya"/Sansa. In the books, Mance and a few Spearwives went in disguise to Winterfell to free "Arya", and started offing various Bolton soldiers and servants, creating a climate of fear and distrust.

So maybe Sansa herself will be the "Ghost of Winterfell", and start offing people for revenge. Starting with Miranda.

Thats all I can think of...

Spoiler:

I think that the role of Mance may be played by brienne of tarth instead. They did already set that up. So similar situation different characters.

Of course.

Couldn't disagree more about the end of the episode.

Been a bit but I believe Sansa was raped in the book to by Ramsey. It was afterwards that Theon (damn his black soul to eternity!) starts getting back into Theon of old I believe

 Jihadin wrote:
Been a bit but I believe Sansa was raped in the book to by Ramsey. It was afterwards that Theon (damn his black soul to eternity!) starts getting back into Theon of old I believe

It ain't Sansa.

Thanks for the correction

Theon kept the fact that he didn't kill the Stark boys secret last week.

Littlefinger clearly knew something bad would happen when he lied (probably) claiming he knew nothing about Ramsey Bolton.

That certainly was quite the awkward way to end that last episode...

 Vaktathi wrote:
That certainly was quite the awkward way to end that last episode...

Well...at least they didn't play The Bear and the Maiden Fair over the credits...

Was the book that graphic? (I assumed so... and if so, shouldn't we all seen this coming?)

Interesting over the reaction to the rape scene on the Social 'Net... and yet, Theon's castration? Crickets.

 George Spiggott wrote:
Theon kept the fact that he didn't kill the Stark boys secret last week.

Littlefinger clearly knew something bad would happen when he lied (probably) claiming he knew nothing about Ramsey Bolton.

Roose did tell ramsay he needs to keep his habits more discrete telling him people feared him which is not good, stories and whispers start to get around. If anyone knows about Ramsay's hunts, certainly little finger would with his ability to get info.

"A peaceful land, a quiet people. That has always been my rule. Make it yours."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 whembly wrote:
Was the book that graphic? (I assumed so... and if so, shouldn't we all seen this coming?)

Interesting over the reaction to the rape scene on the Social 'Net... and yet, Theon's castration? Crickets.

"A peaceful land, a quiet people. That has always been my rule. Make it yours."

Given his descritpion of how he treated Ramsey's mother and ehr husband - slightly ironic...

Watched the most recent episode now - not sure what all the fuss is about...

Its not (IMO) a great episode - the Arya stuf is vaguely interesting but as in the books, it appears to be a indulgent meander into something that seems fairly estorirc and possibly unrelated to any other plot or it might be relevant in some very very distant future - or maybe not..

The Dorne stuff was a major disapointment to myself, and my female friends - bad fight scene, in fact by the standards of previous ones - shockingly so - the vaunted Sand Snakes were pretty laughable and seemed to be operating on no real plan apart from run into garden grab princess. If they had given them some mooks to show their "prowess" (or lack of) it might have helped but it was a very badly filmed fight.

Tyrion and Jorah - best bit in it - no surprise there alongside the chat between Lady Tyrel and Cersi.

The "Trial" was pretty good and sets up some interesting stuff to come.

and then we come to Sansa - niether I nor the girls had any issues with what they did - it all made sense both within the plot and had been forshadowed to a large degree - even Sansa knew pretty much what was coming and it would have been the reality for many teenage girls marrying. I am honestly not sure what else people thought would or indeed could happen. If fact we thought it would have been a cop out to do anything else - Sansa was obviously prepared to sacrifce herself for the greater good etc.

 whembly wrote:
Was the book that graphic? (I assumed so... and if so, shouldn't we all seen this coming?)

Interesting over the reaction to the rape scene on the Social 'Net... and yet, Theon's castration? Crickets.

I know right? so much outrage over one fictitious crime, and zero against another.


I am really hoping theon gets some cumuppance later on,




really enjoying the bronn and jamie story line right now too

 easysauce wrote:

 whembly wrote:
Was the book that graphic? (I assumed so... and if so, shouldn't we all seen this coming?)

Interesting over the reaction to the rape scene on the Social 'Net... and yet, Theon's castration? Crickets.

I know right? so much outrage over one fictitious crime, and zero against another.

Uhm...Theon was a totally hated character who betrayed the family who grew up with. He totally deserved it. Sansa has repeatedly been beaten down and hit in the nuts. In the series, she has been portrayed as an increasingly strong character...but then, rape. Like, come on. The series writers just don't care as much anymore. Jaime, in the books, is a very complex character who has a strong dynamic. In the series? Herp derp, I have a golden hand. The series simplifies the story too much and slaps other character's stories on existing characters, resulting in a mess.

...and who the HELL directed that Dorne fight? That was one of the worst fight scenes I have EVER seen.

 easysauce wrote:
I am really hoping theon gets some cumuppance later on,

Losing his cock wasn't enough?


Oh, and btw...One word:





DISCLAIMER:

Not actually a spoiler as no comeuppance has yet occurred in the books.

 whembly wrote:
Was the book that graphic? (I assumed so... and if so, shouldn't we all seen this coming?)

Interesting over the reaction to the rape scene on the Social 'Net... and yet, Theon's castration? Crickets.

It's because one character was a piece of gak that no one liked, while another character was starting to win fans as she began to stand up for herself and learn how to survive. Until the writers thought it'd be cheaply titillating to ruin that arc and gak all over her again, worse than ever before, while also doubling down this season on rapes that aren't in the books (note that Jeyne <> Sansa, even if Sansa picked up a little of her arc).

I realize this is Dakka, which collectively has an EQ of roughly -17, but this really isn't that hard to figure out.

 Sigvatr wrote:

Uhm...Theon was a totally hated character who betrayed the family who grew up with. He totally deserved it. Sansa has repeatedly been beaten down and hit in the nuts. In the series, she has been portrayed as an increasingly strong character...but then, rape. Like, come on. The series writers just don't care as much anymore. Jaime, in the books, is a very complex character who has a strong dynamic. In the series? Herp derp, I have a golden hand. The series simplifies the story too much and slaps other character's stories on existing characters, resulting in a mess.
.

You must be watching a different show than I am.

Sansa has only 'becoming stronger' in like, the last three episodes. And I think we'll see more of it in her response to her wedding night. Old Sansa would have wilted. I think new Sansa is going to blossom from it. In fact, I think she's going to end up saving Theon, rather than the other way around.

Jaime is incredibly complex in the series. We saw that in his relationship with Brienne. I think we'll see more of that as he interacts with Doran.

I think all of the character blendings have been incredibly strong, thus far. The Jeyne Poole gak was too convoluted. Bringing in Griff would have been introducing another throw away character. I miss Strong Belwas, but he's entirely unneeded.

 cincydooley wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

Uhm...Theon was a totally hated character who betrayed the family who grew up with. He totally deserved it. Sansa has repeatedly been beaten down and hit in the nuts. In the series, she has been portrayed as an increasingly strong character...but then, rape. Like, come on. The series writers just don't care as much anymore. Jaime, in the books, is a very complex character who has a strong dynamic. In the series? Herp derp, I have a golden hand. The series simplifies the story too much and slaps other character's stories on existing characters, resulting in a mess.
.

You must be watching a different show than I am.

Sansa has only 'becoming stronger' in like, the last three episodes. And I think we'll see more of it in her response to her wedding night. Old Sansa would have wilted. I think new Sansa is going to blossom from it. In fact, I think she's going to end up saving Theon, rather than the other way around.

Jaime is incredibly complex in the series. We saw that in his relationship with Brienne. I think we'll see more of that as he interacts with Doran.

I think all of the character blendings have been incredibly strong, thus far. The Jeyne Poole gak was too convoluted. Bringing in Griff would have been introducing another throw away character. I miss Strong Belwas, but he's entirely unneeded.

Not important at all.

The very first episode of the show had a teenager sexually assaulted by her brother.

A teenage bride is raped by a much older clan lord.

A different brother rapes his sister.

Cersei had talked a few times about how she was raped by Robert.

It is clear that the Mountain smashed babies against walls and raped their mother while their brains are still on his hands.

Threats to rape Arya and any of the other female characters are abundant. Joffrey has threatened to have his guards rape Sansa and threatened to rape her himself after she was married.

Rape as a spoils of war is rampant.

And that's just the show, it is worse in the books.

Why is this the one rape that people are suddenly pissed off about? Is it because instead of someone unknown being raped or someone that isn't liked being raped it was a character people liked?

Because.
Talking is fine, especially if its referencing people you dont know in the books because it is world building.
but the second you do it to a main char, it somehow is wrong, destroys that char and what they are.
But thats the thing GoT is about(other than Tyrion) no one having plot armor. Everyone is a target.

It's worth pointing out that the same character rapes a woman in the same room, for no apparent reason, IN THE PREVIOUS EPISODE and no-one gave a gak! Yeesh, you rape ONE Stark girl...

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Because.
Talking is fine, especially if its referencing people you dont know in the books because it is world building.
but the second you do it to a main char, it somehow is wrong, destroys that char and what they are.
But thats the thing GoT is about(other than Tyrion) no one having plot armor. Everyone is a target.

As noted - apart from the characters involved - what exactly was different about the scene between Drogo and Dany and Ramsey and Sansa.

Both teenage girls, both forced to have sex with an older man to whom they have been sold? Looked the same - in fact much less graphic with Sansa - much younger actress IIRC. What happene dot both girls would have been happening all over the GOT world - its the world they live in. Some people do not seem to get this at all

Plot armour is pretty bad in the books - Jon Snow is built of it, as is Aryia - hell he brings people back to life left right and centre. Then there is all the dozens of pointless characters he keeps throwing in..........

For us, the most recent rape plot made total sense in terms of characters involved - note that Sansa chooses this path - although manipulated by Littlefinger, knows whats likely to happen and accepts it - she doesn not want it but its part of her (perhaps misguided) plan to take back winterfell. Personally I hope they don't "redeem" Theon through this - no need for it and he made his chocies long ago

This may build or destroy Sansa - but she will change.

Big event for me in that episode was the Lannister/Tyrell spat. It seems Cercei is prepared to cut her nose to spite her face, looks like we might be seeing the last of Diana Rig and her awesome one-liners (bearing in mind, I haven't read the book!) and perhaps her foxy daughter as well. It would leave the Lannisters massively weakened without the Tyrell's money and food, but that's the power of vitriol..

Albatross wrote:It's worth pointing out that the same character rapes a woman in the same room, for no apparent reason, IN THE PREVIOUS EPISODE and no-one gave a gak! Yeesh, you rape ONE Stark girl...

Yes, very true! Although, I think the reaction in this episode was due to us having seen her grow from being a child, and although she is an adult now there is still a feeling of naivity and vulnerability about her.

What is true now though is that there is a new 'most hated' in Ramsay, who people will cheer for the demise of in the same way we did Geoffrey.

cincydooley wrote:Couldn't disagree more about the end of the episode.

Spoiler:

It was harrowing and horrible to watch, sure, but I'm don't agree that it's "just awful" or makes Sansa "be the victim" more. In fact, I'd argue that it's something she knew would be coming, something she knew she had to do, and is something that the person she learned the most from outside of her parents (Cersei Lannister) almost certainly had to endure many times. I think it's far too early to say that Sansa is "just the victim" as a result of the ending of the episode, and I think the preview for next week hinted at that considerably (it actually looks like sansa is going to be the one saving Theon, which is fething awesome).

The feminists can get up in arms, but think about it this way: it could be worse. Roose was also entitled to her, as well, and doesn't seem to have taken up his prima nocte rights.

I think the scene between Jorah and Tyrion, where Jorah finds out his father is dead, was brilliant. I also thought the nod to the fighting pits was a great way to tie the worlds together.

I think the scene in Dorne, while perhaps a bit too coincidental and hurried, was very good. I can't see a situation where Jaime doesn't end up working with Doran Martell. I just don't see it happening. And in fact, it gives a lot of credence to the net theories that Jaime is, in fact, the "little brother" Moll was referring to in her prophecy, not Tyrion.

The Arya gak is going a bit slowly, but I think we're almost guaranteed to see the Cat of the Canals story resolve this season, which is good.

Probably the weakest episode of the season, which still makes it better than everything else on TV.

Completely agree.

I wonder now if in calling himself by his given name, Theon might have 'snapped out' of the persona that has been created by Ramsay.

The scene where had tears in his eyes at the end of the last episode almost brought to mind the end of Return of the Jedi, where you were egging him on to step in and save her.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 easysauce wrote:

 whembly wrote:
Was the book that graphic? (I assumed so... and if so, shouldn't we all seen this coming?)

Interesting over the reaction to the rape scene on the Social 'Net... and yet, Theon's castration? Crickets.

I know right? so much outrage over one fictitious crime, and zero against another.

Uhm...Theon was a totally hated character who betrayed the family who grew up with. He totally deserved it. Sansa has repeatedly been beaten down and hit in the nuts. In the series, she has been portrayed as an increasingly strong character...but then, rape. Like, come on. The series writers just don't care as much anymore. Jaime, in the books, is a very complex character who has a strong dynamic. In the series? Herp derp, I have a golden hand. The series simplifies the story too much and slaps other character's stories on existing characters, resulting in a mess.
.

sansa has been a passive pawn of basically everyone... she has absolutely nothing redeeming about her, or at least no more then theon other then being a more liked victim of circumstance... sansa betrayed her sister, and her father (she told cerci on him, resulting in his death, and arguably many others deaths), and was more then happy to dote over geoffrey in the beginning.

Sansa made her mistakes out of fear/naivete as opposed to theon making his mistakes out of misplaced loyalty to his father(and I would also say naivete as well). Very comparable, both had the best of intentions as they themselves saw it, both got betrayed for their troubles, both have been suffering quite a lot too, but the degree to which theon has suffered far FAR surpasses what has happened to sansa.

Having a rough husband you dont like rape you is horrible, no one argues that, but its a cake walk compared to castration not to mention the severe torture theon was, and still is subjected too... remember sansa sleeps in beds for this whole time while theon sleeps with dogs in a fetid enviroment. Its just bonkers to get worked up about the suffering of sansa when she has comparatively been untouched up until this point.


I also dont buy that sansa wed that guy with the impression they would never have sex, or that it would be any kind of fun as his abhorrent character shows through quite quickly. (well acted actually, you really despise that guy i find) sansa knew this when she went along with little fingers plan, and again, acted the part of the pawn. if she didnt know it, then shes even more naive and even more of a pawn.

at least theon tried to do something of his own volition, even if it was stupid/brutal/ect and ended poorly.

This scene wasn't about tearing Sansa down. It was about building Theon up. I'll say no more, due to spoilers and the like.

 djones520 wrote:
This scene wasn't about tearing Sansa down. It was about building Theon up. I'll say no more, due to spoilers and the like.

thats what I got out of it too, theon is slowly waking back up I think, I felt that he was the main focus of the scene.

Not important at all.

So yes, we agree. Not important at all.