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Yes, Jon had a lot of Plot Armor on there (Proof Against Missiles!) - but overall, OK!

No Great Northern Conspiracy - sadly.

Rickon and Summer really are dead - and more "What You See Is What You Get" there.

Looks like Littlefinger will...make his move next week too - Ick!

And I hope Sansa has those dogs shot too!

(Pour one out for Wun Wun too - maybe with his CGI money off the books we can see Ghost now?)

They do have three dragons back on the regular cast though.

 Alpharius wrote:
Yes, Jon had a lot of Plot Armor on there (Proof Against Missiles!) - but overall, OK!

He's Azor Ahai, his plot armor is actually the Red God's protection.

My god..... That episode was a rollcoaster!

Anyone else agree?

They had me going there for a second - I thought Jon was actually going to get trampled/suffocated to death!

 Asherian Command wrote:
My god..... That episode was a rollcoaster!

Anyone else agree?

I thought it was fething fantastic.

It was predictable but that's fine in my book so long as the show is able to pull it off, and they did.


Sansa's smirk as she walked away from Ramsay was the best because feth that guy.

I'm certainly glad that Ramsay is FINALLY gone.

And yes, good point d-usa - the dragons are back, so there goes the CGI Budget again.

Maybe we won't see Ghost again this season!

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
My god..... That episode was a rollcoaster!

Anyone else agree?

I thought it was fething fantastic.

It was predictable but that's fine in my book so long as the show is able to pull it off, and they did.


Sansa's smirk as she walked away from Ramsay was the best because feth that guy.

SO poetic of a death. Finally the starks are back! But they don't have an army anymore. It looks like karstark and his army got annihalited by ramsay's arrows.

Also Dany is actually DOING SOMETHING SMART!

FINALLY!

Also greyjoys are allied with Dany now. And man I wish we got to see some of the ironborn fight. But man I was so tired after all that I was exhausted.

We finally got to see what everyone in the entire series wanted to do.

Punch ramsay in the gosh damn face.

I'm certainly glad that Ramsay is FINALLY gone.

And yes, good point d-usa - the dragons are back, so there goes the CGI Budget again.

Maybe we won't see Ghost again this season!

Maybe he kept ghost back because he knew it would die in the combat and left it with sansa to protect her.

I was thinking that "death by Ghost" would be a fitting death for Ramsey, but the show did him in perfectly.

 d-usa wrote:
I was thinking that "death by Ghost" would be a fitting death for Ramsey, but the show did him in perfectly.

Ha!

I was saying the same thing - but better that Ramsay go at the teeth of his own 'loyal beasts'.

Though I was a bit surprised that his men fired so freely and easily on their own.

I thought that was going to come back and bite him in the end...but, no!

 Alpharius wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
I was thinking that "death by Ghost" would be a fitting death for Ramsey, but the show did him in perfectly.

Ha!

I was saying the same thing - but better that Ramsay go at the teeth of his own 'loyal beasts'.

Though I was a bit surprised that his men fired so freely and easily on their own.

I thought that was going to come back and bite him in the end...but, no!

They are soldiers, they do as command.

Kind of hard to complain about this episode. Probably the best in the series.

That's...not something soldiers would easily or readily do.

But yes, overall a great episode!

 Alpharius wrote:
That's...not something soldiers would easily or readily do.

But yes, overall a great episode!

I do think that it fit the theme of the episode and the main "lesson" of this episode.

A man like John Snow creates loyalty through his actions. Man follow him, fight for him, fight for each other, and are willing to die for each other. Wildlings, Northeners, a giant, and a tiny house with 62 men. His leadership and his actions got them to fight.

A man like Ramsey creates loyalty through fear and desperation, which was actually mentioned in the episode itself. People fight for him because it's the best option for them, not because they believe in him. But fear and desperation only go so far and when people get desperate enough they will betray each other. Houses betray the Starks, soldiers fire when they know their own side will die as a result, and in the end, your actions can even make your hounds so desperate that they will turn on you.

 d-usa wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
That's...not something soldiers would easily or readily do.

But yes, overall a great episode!

I do think that it fit the theme of the episode and the main "lesson" of this episode.

A man like John Snow creates loyalty through his actions. Man follow him, fight for him, fight for each other, and are willing to die for each other. Wildlings, Northeners, a giant, and a tiny house with 62 men. His leadership and his actions got them to fight.

A man like Ramsey creates loyalty through fear and desperation, which was actually mentioned in the episode itself. People fight for him because it's the best option for them, not because they believe in him. But fear and desperation only go so far and when people get desperate enough they will betray each other. Houses betray the Starks, soldiers fire when they know their own side will die as a result, and in the end, your actions can even make your hounds so desperate that they will turn on you.

Exactly. That is beautiful poetic, and that makes this one of the best epsiodes of the whole series, because we finally have the starks back in winterfell, the boltons are all gone now. The Starks have returned, and now Jon Snow, not Sansa Stark, won the north, through his actions.

I am expecting something like Rob Stark have happened to him.

We haven't seen house Manderly or the other houses announce for jon snow or fight for ramsay I think we are going to see .... THE KING IN THE NORTH. Or queen.

I loved sansa's speech to Ramsay.

"No one will remember your name, your house, everything you are will be forgotten."

And man that is the truest statement.

Also beautiful irony for Smalljon as well, his house wears the giants chains, as they are known as the giants by many... And they were undone by Tormund Giantsbane. Fething beautiful payoff. Poetic justice for the win!

Alot of statements and alot of payoff.

For once the starks have won.

And they won by sheer luck, honor, and fighting prowress. The rest of the kingdoms will now see the North make a return. The North Remembers, and the North never forgets.

Great episode, and looks like the trials start next week. I am holding out hope for a episode 10 cleganebowl

My favorite part besides the giant ripping people in half was the dogs at the end.

 Necros wrote:
My favorite part besides the giant ripping people in half was the dogs at the end.

About time really.

I have been waiting for that guy to die for so long...

I think my predictions all panned out XD

Hurray for me!


Also preview for next episode.

Uhh... GoT threads can be so difficult. Book purists are the worst. Even heard someone complain that the dogs didn't kill Ramsay the "right way". Yikes...

Anyway, that was kinda harrowing. After the triumph of Danny soaring into battle with her dragons we get Ramsay playing Jon like a fiddle and Jon walking right into a trap, losing the battle, and then getting bailed out by Dues Ex Littlefinger. At least Sansa got her revenge.

 Alpharius wrote:
(Pour one out for Wun Wun too - maybe with his CGI money off the books we can see Ghost now?)

Wun Wun's not CGI. It's a tall dude in a suit, composited into scenes. Big difference to a totally CGI element.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Uhh... GoT threads can be so difficult. Book purists are the worst. Even heard someone complain that the dogs didn't kill Ramsay the "right way". Yikes...

Anyway, that was kinda harrowing. After the triumph of Danny soaring into battle with her dragons we get Ramsay playing Jon like a fiddle and Jon walking right into a trap, losing the battle, and then getting bailed out by Dues Ex Littlefinger. At least Sansa got her revenge.

 Alpharius wrote:
(Pour one out for Wun Wun too - maybe with his CGI money off the books we can see Ghost now?)

Wun Wun's not CGI. It's a tall dude in a suit, composited into scenes. Big difference to a totally CGI element.

Personally I can't wait for next episode. I think Sansa is going to tell Jon about LF, and going to betray LF by gobbling him up. Would be a fitting end really.

Like the actual battle was mostly CGI,

They had around 200 extras, and 80 horses. Which they had to copy and paste over and over.

They posted it on the youtube channel and its very indepth and very awesome how much work they put into the battle.

Most of the fighting was not CGI.

The body piles and guys surrounding that group was not CGI.

I loved the bit where the horses from the vale just tore up the bolton forces.

Yeah, I saw that behind the scenes things. The way they worked in the CGI to make things more chaotic (and to add stuff going on in the background) was cool.

And yeah, the body piles were made up of fake bodies that looked really real.

Well...that was a thoroughly depressing and bleak episode....Don't get me wrong, I'm relieved they won, and cheered when the Knights of the Vale rode to the Starks' rescue. But I just can't feel any sense of triumphalism.

Rickon's murder...and then being made a pin cushion.
The massacre of the first charge, when Ramsay had his archers slaughter everybody, sacrificing his own cavalry.
The mountain of corpses.
The ring of death.
The stampede, Jon Snow almost being crushed to death.
Wun Wun's death.
Ramsay almost being beaten to death and then eaten alive (I mean, he deserved it and I'm glad he's dead, but still...it was a human being almost beaten to death and then eaten alive).

The Stark's have defeated the Boltons and taken back their home, but at what cost? Its definitely a Pyrrhic Victory, and Littlefinger has them at his mercy.

...

...

And now theres a mountain of fresh corpses just waiting for the Winds of Winter to come rolling in next episode...


Its often said that GRRM's ASOIAF series has an inherent anti-war message (GRRM was a conscientious objector in the Vietnam War IIRC), and that the showrunners have completely ignored if not outright disrespected that anti-war message in favour of doing a typical Hollywood esque Actrion Blockbuster with lots of glorified violence and all conquering Heroes. But they finally acknowledged and adapted that anti-war message for the TV screen. Better late than never I suppose, even if it did take them 6 Seasons...


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For once the starks have won.

And they won by sheer luck, honor, and fighting prowress. The rest of the kingdoms will now see the North make a return. The North Remembers, and the North never forgets.

No they didn't. The Starks lost the battle. It was only the intervention of the Knights of the Vale that saved them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also...Ramsay is an idiot. If he'd just picked up a sword instead of a bow, he might have had a chance against Jon Snow.


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Oh, and one final remark...If I ever get the opportunity to run a pitched battle in my Dungeons and Dragons campaign, its going to have a mountain of bodies. That was probably the coolest part of this episode.

I thought it was a great episode. We get the characters I care most about (Dany's group and Jon's group) outside of Arya finally winning and starting to move forward.

The battle of the bastards was amazing. I love the Jon and Ramsay interactions. The contrast to leadership were great as well. I couldn't tell if Karstark went down in the battle or not but the North is back with the Starks now. Also, Jon is a beast! Even once the plot armor of arrow protection is removed the dude is a machine.

I'm eager to see what happens with Davos and the Red Woman. I'm eager to see what happens if Bran actually manages to get back. All of Littlefingers machinations will be for nothing when a living Stark male returns to winterfell. Not like Sansa is going to do a thing to her remaining little brother and he'll have Jon on one side and Sansa on the other to support him cripple or not.

Best episode of the series so far for me. I also like the contrast of this week vs. last week with the banners. As House Tully falls so does House Stark rise.

Ramsay picking up the bow instead of the sword makes perfect sense for his character - he's basically a coward at heart, and thought he could kill Jon froma distance.

He'd already mentioned knowing Jon's reputation as a swordman, so no way was he going to try and fight fair.

It was a great episode. But its also one of those episodes that I don't really desire to see a second time, like the Red Wedding.

As for the rise of House Stark....no. They're entirely at Littlefinger's mercy. Littlefinger has a fresh and powerful army at his command, the Starks have the battered exhausted remnants of a small and weak army. It it comes to the worst case scenario, and Littlefinger decides to move against the Starks, then their only hope is to undermine his support over the Lords of the Vale. Littlefinger is far from home, and his authority derives from his influence over Lord Robin Arryn who I presume has stayed behind in the Vale.

Sansa could convince the Lords of the Vale to turn on Littlefinger.

 Alpharius wrote:
Ramsay picking up the bow instead of the sword makes perfect sense for his character - he's basically a coward at heart, and thought he could kill Jon froma distance.

He'd already mentioned knowing Jon's reputation as a swordman, so no way was he going to try and fight fair.

Not seen it yet but that's totally wrong - you are mixing him up with Joffrey who was a coward.

Ramsey is (was) a psycho - see how it reacted when he found Theon's sister and her men in his hold - half naked he jumped straight in to the fight with glee - he really doesn't care. If they made him a coward they changed the character.

Fighting fair - he sees no reason to do so because honor means nothing to him - see psycho.

I agree. Ramsay is no coward. Yes, he knew he couldn't beat Jon in a fair fight as Jon is the better swordsman. But thats not cowardice, thats pragmatism. (though I still think it was unwise to use a bow given that Jon only had to grab a shield). Cowardice would have been Ramsay escaping into the countryside.

Ramsay's instinct was to retreat to Winterfell and prepare for a siege.
A coward would have simply vanished.




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Also, just rewatched the scene when Sansa watches the Hounds eating Ramsay...looks like is now the Show's Lady Stoneheart for all intents and purposes.

I think it was a fitting end for ramsay.. I like how he was smug till the end, till the dog started licking and his doucheyness suddenly vanished.

Looking forward to seeing what Davos does about the deer.

And yeah I think Littlefinger is gonna be the next enemy to beat, unless he suddenly turns nice. In the preview it looked like he was gonna as sansa to marry him.. he wants to be king of the north.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
It was a great episode. But its also one of those episodes that I don't really desire to see a second time, like the Red Wedding.

As for the rise of House Stark....no. They're entirely at Littlefinger's mercy. Littlefinger has a fresh and powerful army at his command, the Starks have the battered exhausted remnants of a small and weak army. It it comes to the worst case scenario, and Littlefinger decides to move against the Starks, then their only hope is to undermine his support over the Lords of the Vale. Littlefinger is far from home, and his authority derives from his influence over Lord Robin Arryn who I presume has stayed behind in the Vale.

Sansa could convince the Lords of the Vale to turn on Littlefinger.

For all his machinations, it doesn't seem like Littlefinger is in a *great* spot, realistically speaking. He saved the day, but he's highly reliant on the benevolence/honor/generosity of others now. Sansa doesn't HAVE to be eternally grateful. If she puts a knife in his belly, are the Knights of the Vale really going to do something about it, considering he's not actually their lord and Lord Royce hates his conniving butt? Especially if she makes her plea to them/the Lords of the Vale? Given that the show is very straight-line at this point (and because season 6 *IS* grrl power!!!), I'll guess that this becomes the 'student becoming the master' moment for Sansa where she takes it all from Littlefinger.

Very enjoyable episode, with great production values. Still think the writing is cartoony in spots, but it is what it is. So glad to see Ramsey gone. The character had become ridiculous, right up to the moment where his plan rested on his ability to put kill shots on a moving target with a bow and arrow from at least a couple hundred yards. Which of course he pulled off because he's a magic ninja, at least until the target was a hero 10 paces away. It's TV. *shrug*

Looking ahead, they sure seem to be setting up Cersei for her Joker moment and just wanting to see the world burn. We got another wildfire reference in this ep.

Heres something we can all enjoy....

@Shadow Captain Edithae

House Stark is on the rise. There is a Stark in Winterfell again. With the rebellious lords put down the rest of the north will rally to the Stark banner (very few of the actual northern houses were in play in this battle, just the 3 largest with Ramsay and I think 4 more small houses or so on the Stark side).

Yes, Littlefinger could be a problem but I don't think so. While he does want power he knows he can't hold the north himself and there are no good puppets left for him if he does something to the remaining Starks. The Knights of the Vale will be needed back in the south once word reaches Kings Landing about what's happened in the North. Especially since the entire realm can turn its attention to the north/aerie now that Riverrun isn't a running wound in their side.

And yeah, Ramsay was no coward. But the north hears things and a bastard like Ramsay may well have been keeping out a keener ear about news about another major bastard. Jon is a man that was battle trained by the best of the north, then polished fighting some of the boogiemen the other northerners fear, word had gone out about Hardhome even if people don't believe it, and he's managed to get wildings (who value martial ability extremely highly) to follow him against an numerically superior force. Essentially Ramsay knows he's outclassed in a physical confrontation. The bow was smart. If Jon was a little slower physical or mentally the bow would have worked. Most men won't abandon their weapon to grab a shield and then charge the man who murdered their little brother.