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Personally I like war walkers. are they going to get buffs to compensate for this nonsense?

 Sir Arun wrote:
Did someone here honestly compare crappy jetbikes with an entire army of terminators, the literal best of the best?

In lore - yes the best of the best.....

On the board.. I would like to see 1080 Deathwing terminators... Grey Knight Terminators, hell Space Marines Terminators go up against that bike army and tell me who wins

I reckon it's most likely that a 6 to wound makes them Destroyer, the same way at the moment a 6 to wound is instant death/auto penetrate.

 Blacksails wrote:
I think I've eaten alphabet soup with better writing in it.

This made me laugh Exalted good sir.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I reckon it's most likely that a 6 to wound makes them Destroyer, the same way at the moment a 6 to wound is instant death/auto penetrate.

Which I'm sure we can all agree, is still absurd.


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 Frozocrone wrote:


This made me laugh Exalted good sir.

I could have gone in a slightly different direction with that joke, but I figure this board is PG.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Did someone here honestly compare crappy jetbikes with an entire army of terminators, the literal best of the best?

Yeah, that was the point. Two armies of equal point value, one Saim-Hann and one 1st Company, both equally fluffy, but the jetbikes will kick the snot out of the terminators hands down, even though the terminators should be "the best of the best" fluff-wise. No fault of the players involved either as the Eldar player can't really be accused of cheese for building a list with lots of jetbikes and everything else in Wave Serpents - that's just how Saim-Hann roll, and terminators just happen to be terrible.

The rules are horribly unbalanced, so even if you're trying to play friendly and fluffy, it ends up immensely rewarding certain fluff builds and screwing others into the ground.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blacksails wrote:
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 Frozocrone wrote:


This made me laugh Exalted good sir.

I could have gone in a slightly different direction with that joke, but I figure this board is PG.

If the alphabits are still readable coming out the other end, you may want to see a doctor.

 RunicFIN wrote:
Anyway, a jetbike horde isn't going to dominate anything. There's so many counters to it off the top of my head that it doesn't worry me one bit.

Well, bring it on.
Give me three good counters to them.

Going to reserve judgment until Saturday. Seems a slight, indirect buff to Guard and artillery lists, but that only really works for eternal war missions

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:
Did someone here honestly compare crappy jetbikes with an entire army of terminators, the literal best of the best?

Yeah, that was the point. Two armies of equal point value, one Saim-Hann and one 1st Company, both equally fluffy, but the jetbikes will kick the snot out of the terminators hands down, even though the terminators should be "the best of the best" fluff-wise. No fault of the players involved either as the Eldar player can't really be accused of cheese for building a list with lots of jetbikes and everything else in Wave Serpents - that's just how Saim-Hann roll, and terminators just happen to be terrible.

The rules are horribly unbalanced, so even if you're trying to play friendly and fluffy, it ends up immensely rewarding certain fluff builds and screwing others into the ground.

That was exactly the point I was making. You can be a fluffy/casual (whatever word you want to use) player and pick an army that is better than another fluffy/casual army, because the balance of 40k is basically nonexistent. I use that as my go-to example to show that it's not just competitive players who are hurt by unbalanced things (in fact they're hurt less) but the casual gamers who will pick an army based on looks/fluff and it just so happens that the units Bob likes are better than the units Jim likes, because reasons.

 Blacksails wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I reckon it's most likely that a 6 to wound makes them Destroyer, the same way at the moment a 6 to wound is instant death/auto penetrate.

Which I'm sure we can all agree, is still absurd.

Absurd if(and this is a big if) nothing else about the D-Scythe or Wraithguard profiles have changed.

If D-Scythes lose their Template and instead become the same range minus the Template, that's a significant change.
If Wraithguard become Extremely Bulky and can no longer be transported in Wave Serpents, that's a significant change.

I think that either of those changes would immediately do a big number on the potential power of Wraithguard having Destroyer weapons.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I reckon it's most likely that a 6 to wound makes them Destroyer, the same way at the moment a 6 to wound is instant death/auto penetrate.

Which I'm sure we can all agree, is still absurd.

Absurd if(and this is a big if) nothing else about the D-Scythe or Wraithguard profiles have changed.

If D-Scythes lose their Template and instead become the same range minus the Template, that's a significant change.
If Wraithguard become Extremely Bulky and can no longer be transported in Wave Serpents, that's a significant change.

I think that either of those changes would immediately do a big number on the potential power of Wraithguard having Destroyer weapons.

Second one doesn't matter, people would just ally in DE with warp portal and deepstrike with no scatter anywhere.

Isn't the no scatter DS only for units who can already DS (ie, raiders)? If so, then a min squad of 5 would mean the archon couldn't fit in the raider with the wraithguard.

IIRC, he could join normally without a transport and they could then DS, but at least they'd have a chance at scattering.

Jetbikes with scatter lasers everywhere? Typhon Siege Tank would like to meet those blobs and give 'em a demonstration why the galaxy belongs to man.

 Drasius wrote:
Isn't the no scatter DS only for units who can already DS (ie, raiders)? If so, then a min squad of 5 would mean the archon couldn't fit in the raider with the wraithguard.

IIRC, he could join normally without a transport and they could then DS, but at least they'd have a chance at scattering.

No, the Webway portal doesn't need anything else. It simply grants its user and the squad he's in the ability to DS with no scatter, it grants the ability to DS, and the ability of no scatter.

This is basically my reaction to 40k right now, because I love the game and can't stop playing it:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
This is basically my reaction to 40k right now, because I love the game and can't stop playing it:

I love it

I'm just glad we're all getting on the same page now. For years, people who dared express dissatisfaction were shouted down as whiners, personally derided for their comments. The defenders kept saying how GW was working towards a goal with the game, and that the accelerated rule cycles were just flukes, or a result of a bad 6th edition. But the team that couldn't do 6th right in the first place damn sure couldn't make 7th all that much better- it doesn't seem that it was really ever their goal to get things into shape.

But now hopefully 40k fans will be in a more healthy, unified group, everyone recognizing that the designers don't give a flying feth about balance and the game is insane, and either choosing to accept that and play, or choosing to not and leave.

How many ppm are the bikes bare?

I would think a 50/50 mix of scatter lasers and shuriken cannons would be the way to go. Bladestorm on a 6 is pretty nice when you are pumping out 60 shots, and you will still have 80 scatter laser shots...

The ranges are a bit skewed (36" vs. 24"), but they are Jetbikes. It's not like they won't be in range by the end of turn 1 anyways, and they can always just scoot away in the assault phase.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Drasius wrote:
Isn't the no scatter DS only for units who can already DS (ie, raiders)? If so, then a min squad of 5 would mean the archon couldn't fit in the raider with the wraithguard.

IIRC, he could join normally without a transport and they could then DS, but at least they'd have a chance at scattering.

No, the Webway portal doesn't need anything else. It simply grants its user and the squad he's in the ability to DS with no scatter, it grants the ability to DS, and the ability of no scatter.

OK then. Cheers for clearing that up for me. I guess you can just say goodby to whatever unit the eldar player wants to delete then...

...If you're foolish enough to play them in the 1st place.

 Great White wrote:
How many ppm are the bikes bare?

17ppm. Ridiculous.

Wait until we find out that the formation bonus for the jetbike formation is +1 to jink saves. [/rampant speculation]

 Blacksails wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I reckon it's most likely that a 6 to wound makes them Destroyer, the same way at the moment a 6 to wound is instant death/auto penetrate.

Which I'm sure we can all agree, is still absurd.

It's a bit unbalancing in that it can potentially do a lot of damage, but lets not forget the rule is currently a 6 to wound = instant death regardless of toughness, which is actually more powerful against T6+ stuff than being Destroyer on a 6 to wound.

It also depends how they price it and how the other stats for the distort weapons change. If the number of shots per point is very low they aren't going to be very competitive, hoping for the 1 in 36 chance that it does something epic to something expensive on your opponent's army is not really conducive to a good competitive army (it just pisses people off when your baneblade cops an unlucky roll).

While I agree GW aren't to be trusted, it's a bit early to call the sky is falling (at least on the distort stuff, the bikes are bad enough ).

 Drasius wrote:
Isn't the no scatter DS only for units who can already DS (ie, raiders)? If so, then a min squad of 5 would mean the archon couldn't fit in the raider with the wraithguard.

IIRC, he could join normally without a transport and they could then DS, but at least they'd have a chance at scattering.

Nope, WWP gives the bearer and any unit he joins no scatter DS

people just put them in transports so they can jink.

Also all the templates come off of any point on the vehicle, rather than having to be arrayed in DS formation.

A 6 to wound = instand death isn't as broken as S: D though.
Instant death doesn't affect vehicles. It could also be "countered" with Eternal Warrior.
The moment your IK/Stompa/Blaneblade/whathaveyou gets shot with S: D and blows up first turn by a single shot.. ID cannot deal THAT kind of damage.
That was one of the few advantages vehicles had vs MC's.

Additionally there is no g'tee that the wraith guard will stay troops - or can be taken as troops - given as 7th has done away with force org swapping armies.

Does it really matter though? S: D was reserved for Super Heavys that cost a FORTUNE points-wise for a reason... and ranged S: D was very, very rare. And now you get it on Wraithguards. The number of S: D and availability sky rockets with that change to ludicrous levels.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Additionally there is no g'tee that the wraith guard will stay troops - or can be taken as troops - given as 7th has done away with force org swapping armies.

Which is no problem as you have plenty of troops with all your S6 toting Jetbikes. With that many shots at a high strength in Troops you can just fill other slots with your Destroyer weapons.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I reckon it's most likely that a 6 to wound makes them Destroyer, the same way at the moment a 6 to wound is instant death/auto penetrate.

Which I'm sure we can all agree, is still absurd.

It's a bit unbalancing in that it can potentially do a lot of damage, but lets not forget the rule is currently a 6 to wound = instant death regardless of toughness, which is actually more powerful against T6+ stuff than being Destroyer on a 6 to wound.

It also depends how they price it and how the other stats for the distort weapons change. If the number of shots per point is very low they aren't going to be very competitive, hoping for the 1 in 36 chance that it does something epic to something expensive on your opponent's army is not really conducive to a good competitive army (it just pisses people off when your baneblade cops an unlucky roll).

While I agree GW aren't to be trusted, it's a bit early to call the sky is falling (at least on the distort stuff, the bikes are bad enough ).

It's not going to gain the D trait on a 6 to wound. That would mean you are wounding a model twice. Roll to hit, then roll to wound. Roll a 6 to wound? Well, now you roll on the Destroyer Weapon table, where if you roll a 1, nothing happens. 2-5, bad stuff, 6 really bad stuff.

Remember, D weapons don't roll to wound. If they hit, you roll on the Destroyer Weapon table.

GW has moved away from "On a 6 to hit, you gain this" and moved to a "doesn't matter what you rolled to hit. What did you roll to wound?" system. I can't find any weapons right now that give special benefits on a 'to hit' roll. They are all on 'to wound' rolls.

 Accolade wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
This is basically my reaction to 40k right now, because I love the game and can't stop playing it:

I love it

I'm just glad we're all getting on the same page now. For years, people who dared express dissatisfaction were shouted down as whiners, personally derided for their comments. The defenders kept saying how GW was working towards a goal with the game, and that the accelerated rule cycles were just flukes, or a result of a bad 6th edition. But the team that couldn't do 6th right in the first place damn sure couldn't make 7th all that much better- it doesn't seem that it was really ever their goal to get things into shape.

But now hopefully 40k fans will be in a more healthy, unified group, everyone recognizing that the designers don't give a flying feth about balance and the game is insane, and either choosing to accept that and play, or choosing to not and leave.

If only. There's already been people in the rumours thread (and of cours Runic here) proving that's already not the case, there's still 'blame the players' mentality and 'it's not too bad, play better'...

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

 Accolade wrote:

 Great White wrote:
Do we know the scatter laser rules? Maybe they got nerfed

They have not, they are the same. S6 4 shots.

Evidence of this anywhere? And even then its not the end of the world, instead of freaking out why not discuss ways to counter this?

No one is freaking out like its the end of the world... 160 s6 shots in just over 1000 points is pretty ridiculous though.

on a relentless and mobile 3+ save platform...

It's hilarious I ask for bolter buffs on marines and get shafted and eldar get a scatter laser on each jetbike. Time to quit 40k.

The bolter is fine! The shuriken cannon needed the upgrades all along!