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Poly Ranger wrote:
No - being serious. Name me a unit with that damage output, that maneuverability, that range, that durability (factor range in) and scoring (or OS in 7th) for 270pts in the history of the game. Hell just name me a unit for 135pts with half the durability and firepower.

A 5-man unit of eldar jetbikes all upgraded to the heavy weapon of your preference, obviously. Man, I thought you were gonna ask a difficult question.

This thread is almost the same as when people found out about Necron Wraiths....

 Hawkeye888 wrote:
This thread is almost the same as when people found out about Necron Wraiths....

Except worse.


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The jetbikes even make a mockery of Wraiths.

And Wraiths have limitations that were identified quickly. Seen as OP, but not on the same magnitude.

Wraiths were 'wtf'.

Bikes are 'omgwtfbbq'.

Love how everyone reacts as if

A. All shots fried from jetbikes will land and wound while the Eldar opponent will fail all their armor saves.

B. Jetbikes will never have to jink since their 3+ armor will always be effective

C. No jetbike model will ever die or fall back.

D. Every model in the jetbike unit will always have full line of sight to their opponent.

E. Eldar opponents will line up out in the open and allow themselves to be shot to pieces at maximum range.

F. No Eldar jetbike will ever be charged and will always squirm out of range of CC while firing all their weapons to full effect.

G. Eldar will always go first and destroy half their opponent's army in the first turn.

I swear, every time there's a rules leak people collectively wet their pants and start raging. You'd think after so long people would know better than to lose their sh*t before we have a chance to even see the full codex.

Looks like Eldar are getting the buffs they needed to be competitive again, which is great news for the hobby. Str D weapons on wraith is probably the most obvious change they could have done in this codex and I don't see why people are impressed by it, the jet bikes will be lots of fun and I can't wait to see what else the eldar get in their codex, probably a lot of very good internal balance, which means stronger accross the board, with no more twin linking from scatter lasers and no more shooting the serpent shield, which is exactly what everyone expected. Well done GW, looks like another hit codex.

confoo22 wrote:
Love how everyone reacts as if

A. All shots fried from jetbikes will land and wound while the Eldar opponent will fail all their armor saves.

Obviously you missed all the math where we figured out how many unsaved wounds would occur from 160 shots.

B. Jetbikes will never have to jink since their 3+ armor will always be effective

Can you make all 6 units jink?

C. No jetbike model will ever die or fall back.

How many can you kill or force off the board in one turn?

D. Every model in the jetbike unit will always have full line of sight to their opponent.

12" move, 36" range. You figure it out.

E. Eldar opponents will line up out in the open and allow themselves to be shot to pieces at maximum range.

You may not be familiar with the idea of kiting. What unit is going to catch the jetbikes?

F. No Eldar jetbike will ever be charged and will always squirm out of range of CC while firing all their weapons to full effect.

12" move, 36" range. What unit is going to assault them?

G. Eldar will always go first and destroy half their opponent's army in the first turn.

Valid point. Can you kill 40 jetbikes in 6 units and 3 Batteries of Vauls in one turn? No? You just lost.

You'd think after so long people would know better than to lose their sh*t before we have a chance to even see the full codex.

Valid point. It is entirely possible that the WD is wrong on multiple fronts and/or we haven't seen some mitigating factor.


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 Registered Ork Offender wrote:
Looks like Eldar are getting the buffs they needed to be competitive again, which is great news for the hobby. Str D weapons on wraith is probably the most obvious change they could have done in this codex and I don't see why people are impressed by it, the jet bikes will be lots of fun and I can't wait to see what else the eldar get in their codex, probably a lot of very good internal balance, which means stronger accross the board, with no more twin linking from scatter lasers and no more shooting the serpent shield, which is exactly what everyone expected. Well done GW, looks like another hit codex.

Not sure if serious...

 pretre wrote:

D. Every model in the jetbike unit will always have full line of sight to their opponent.

12" move, 36" range. You figure it out.

On models that ignore terrain to boot.

And we're forgetting assault phase moves. Good luck getting to them.

The only good part is that 40 jetbikes take up a lot of real estate so they can only hide so much.

 Davylove21 wrote:
This adversely affects tournament players and people who have Eldar playing, WAAC friends. Saying that the game is destroyed/unplayable/broken/dead is crazy. It's like people who complained because Dark Souls got an easy mode or whatever when they are under no obligation to play it.

Trying to overcome jetbike spam sounds fun, anyway. I'm sure Imperial Guard armies spamming autocannons wouldn't mind too much.

spamming bs3 auto cannons on t3 5+ models is one thing. Though I'd chalange you to get that many auto cannons for 1000 points in a gard army.

a platon can get you what? 12 autocannons for about 550 points right you also get some lasguns too? for that cost you can have 20 jetbikes with scatter lasers. they are bs4 to your mostly bs 3 - 3+ saves to your 5+ - and can move and shoot where you can't - you get a small range advantage but 36" range moving 12 inches is the exact same threat range. They are durable where your autocannon teams are getting 1 shot by a single str 6 wound and your platoons die with relative ease as well. it's not even close in terms of power.

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 Registered Ork Offender wrote:
Looks like Eldar are getting the buffs they needed to be competitive again, which is great news for the hobby. Str D weapons on wraith is probably the most obvious change they could have done in this codex and I don't see why people are impressed by it, the jet bikes will be lots of fun and I can't wait to see what else the eldar get in their codex, probably a lot of very good internal balance, which means stronger accross the board, with no more twin linking from scatter lasers and no more shooting the serpent shield, which is exactly what everyone expected. Well done GW, looks like another hit codex.

Not sure if serious...

Just being honest, we'll have to wait a week to see if I'm right or not.

Not a huge help, but they do *not* fully ignore terrain. If they spam bikes, they should lose some of them to dangerous terrai . (1/18 checks)

Poly Ranger wrote:
Anyone trying to claim 27pts for 4 st6 shots on a bs4, 3+ t4 model with 4+ jink, 12" move and 18" (or 24"?) Turbo boost base with access to OS is absolutely insanely deluded or has absolutely no concept of balance or fairness in the game.

This. It boggles the mind that GW is putting that out. It boggles it even further that there are STILL people trying to defend it.

"It's ok guys, just play to the objectives and you'll beat the army of obsec models that can zip anywhere on the board in one turn, and can table your force from outside your effective range in half a game!"

I'm probably going to call ahead to tournies and ask if they're allowing eldar. If they say yes, I'll wish them luck with their eldar+ a few scrubs tourney and move on.

 pretre wrote:
And we're forgetting assault phase moves. Good luck getting to them.

The only good part is that 40 jetbikes take up a lot of real estate so they can only hide so much.

Which is why I am very seriously considering getting a Deathstrike Launcher. Or two.

If I'm going to lose an absurd amount of units, I'll be damned if I won't swamp you with obscene missile launches!

Bharring wrote:
Not a huge help, but they do *not* fully ignore terrain. If they spam bikes, they should lose some of them to dangerous terrai . (1/18 checks)

Yep, if they are silly enough (or run out of room) to avoid it. 40 jetbikes should help in that regard.

Oh and if the formation doesn't give Skilled Rider.


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 Kanluwen wrote:

 pretre wrote:
And we're forgetting assault phase moves. Good luck getting to them.

The only good part is that 40 jetbikes take up a lot of real estate so they can only hide so much.

Which is why I am very seriously considering getting a Deathstrike Launcher. Or two.

If I'm going to lose an absurd amount of units, I'll be damned if I won't swamp you with obscene missile launches!

Problem is that you can't keep it alive that long. It can't fire turn one and by turn 2 it is dead. They are chimera hulls, right?

 Marsyas wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
No - being serious. Name me a unit with that damage output, that maneuverability, that range, that durability (factor range in) and scoring (or OS in 7th) for 270pts in the history of the game. Hell just name me a unit for 135pts with half the durability and firepower.

A 5-man unit of eldar jetbikes all upgraded to the heavy weapon of your preference, obviously. Man, I thought you were gonna ask a difficult question.

Haha bingo! If you don't laugh you cry...

 pretre wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Not a huge help, but they do *not* fully ignore terrain. If they spam bikes, they should lose some of them to dangerous terrai . (1/18 checks)

Yep, if they are silly enough (or run out of room) to avoid it. 40 jetbikes should help in that regard.

Oh and if the formation doesn't give Skilled Rider.


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 Kanluwen wrote:

 pretre wrote:
And we're forgetting assault phase moves. Good luck getting to them.

The only good part is that 40 jetbikes take up a lot of real estate so they can only hide so much.

Which is why I am very seriously considering getting a Deathstrike Launcher. Or two.

If I'm going to lose an absurd amount of units, I'll be damned if I won't swamp you with obscene missile launches!

Problem is that you can't keep it alive that long. It can't fire turn one and by turn 2 it is dead. They are chimera hulls, right?

Yes. All the Eldar has to do is hit it on the side and it will evaporate even with cover saves.

Yeah, no chimera hull would survive turn 1.

The more I think about this, the more my brain hurts.

This isn't ordinary stupidity.

This is advanced stupidity.

And you can own these amazing rules for the low price of ~$60!

Scary thought, Pretre.

I don't think anyone is outright defending it. Some are saying they'd enjoy the challenge. Others are saying they want to wait and see the full codex first. Still others aren't entirely convinced that it'll be such a problem.

While there are certainly counterpoints to those views, those views aren't defending it.

 Blacksails wrote:
The more I think about this, the more my brain hurts.

This isn't ordinary stupidity.

This is advanced stupidity.

And you can own these amazing rules for the low price of ~$60!

No, you don't understand. This is GW trying to make the game match the lore! Watch as the heaviest battle tanks fall from a death of a thousand cuts! Its cinematic! Its just the thing for casual gamers!

 pretre wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 pretre wrote:
And we're forgetting assault phase moves. Good luck getting to them.

The only good part is that 40 jetbikes take up a lot of real estate so they can only hide so much.

Which is why I am very seriously considering getting a Deathstrike Launcher. Or two.

If I'm going to lose an absurd amount of units, I'll be damned if I won't swamp you with obscene missile launches!

Problem is that you can't keep it alive that long. It can't fire turn one and by turn 2 it is dead. They are chimera hulls, right?

They are, but you can get a pretty nice cover save going on them.

Camo Netting for a 6+ Cover save, even out in the open.
Bullgryn Bubblewrap in front of them for +1 to their Cover save(or +2 if you do the Rampart Detachment from Sanctus Reach)

Smoke Launchers if necessary for turn 2 or 3.

Also, stop bringing your math into my hopefulness!

 pretre wrote:
Yeah, no chimera hull would survive turn 1.

are we sure?

What if we had a wall of chimera's backed up by some indirect fire. Scatter lasers will need 6s to glance AV12, so they wont chew through them that fast. If they do wreck them, then wrecks stay in place and block LOS. 160 shots will do 17 hullpoints, 9 if there is an ageis defence line. That's a lot but not impossible to overcome.

Obviously wraithknights with long ranged destroyer weapons.... they could cut a whole.


I dont think it's a counter, I dont think it would even win. It might just last a turn longer than mosts armies.

Even with a 2+ Cover Save...

3/4 Hit. 2/3 Results. 1/6 get through cover. 1/12 total.

So 1 unit kills it in one turn.

It actually does make sense to have things like this and the Decurion if you're trying to make a system where you tell linked stories on a table with painted minis.

If you are going to do that though the main rules should be a lot closer to RPG rulebook/sourcebooks though. It seems really stupid to me to have a competitive (The rulebook only details how things fight and who is the winner at the end) wargame be the framework for your system clearly made to be used narratively.

So our metric is now "lasting longer"?

I'm not sure what the fuss is all about. All we have to do is lock the Necron players and the Eldar players in a room while the rest of us play 40k.

 Exergy wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Yeah, no chimera hull would survive turn 1.

are we sure?

What if we had a wall of chimera's backed up by some indirect fire. Scatter lasers will need 6s to glance AV12, so they wont chew through them that fast. If they do wreck them, then wrecks stay in place and block LOS. 160 shots will do 17 hullpoints, 9 if there is an ageis defence line. That's a lot but not impossible to overcome.

Obviously wraithknights with long ranged destroyer weapons.... they could cut a whole.


I dont think it's a counter, I dont think it would even win. It might just last a turn longer than mosts armies.

I thought of that. AV12 isn't likely though since AV10 is easy to get with a 12" 36" platform.

You are really limited at how many units the Eldar dude brought.

 Eldarain wrote:
It seems really stupid to me to have a competitive (The rulebook only details how things fight and who is the winner at the end) wargame be the framework for your system clearly made to be used narratively.

How is it clear the game is made to be used narratively?

An RPG is a narrative game; there is no winner. Its entirely cooperative.

A wargame, by its definition, is competitive in that one party will win by achieving some goal.

40k is a wargame. It has points so that players can theoretically build armies that are on the same playing field, and they have competing objectives in order to determine a winner.

That is distinctly not a narrative game or RPG, and quite obviously a wargame.

The shocking genius behind GW is that they managed to get some people to buy into the 'Forge the Narrative' bs as an excuse for poor rules.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
It seems really stupid to me to have a competitive (The rulebook only details how things fight and who is the winner at the end) wargame be the framework for your system clearly made to be used narratively.

How is it clear the game is made to be used narratively?

An RPG is a narrative game; there is no winner. Its entirely cooperative.

A wargame, by its definition, is competitive in that one party will win by achieving some goal.

40k is a wargame. It has points so that players can theoretically build armies that are on the same playing field, and they have competing objectives in order to determine a winner.

That is distinctly not a narrative game or RPG, and quite obviously a wargame.

The shocking genius behind GW is that they managed to get some people to buy into the 'Forge the Narrative' bs as an excuse for poor rules.

Exactly - this narrative bogus is about equivalent to "this is a game - have fun!"