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 deviantduck wrote:
Why does no one count the avenger strike fighter?

Because its not in their Codex and any IoM army can take one? It is freakin sweet though.

 Grimmor wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
Why does no one count the avenger strike fighter?

Because its not in their Codex and any IoM army can take one? It is freakin sweet though.

It's only IG or SoB. And its treated as a heavy support choice as if it's in the codex.

 deviantduck wrote:

 Grimmor wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
Why does no one count the avenger strike fighter?

Because its not in their Codex and any IoM army can take one? It is freakin sweet though.

It's only IG or SoB. And its treated as a heavy support choice as if it's in the codex.

Im still annoyed that its just not in the frelling book. Flyers where a thing in 6th so there really isnt an excuse.

 Humble Guardsman wrote:
As a few other members have mentioned, Frateris Militia are certainly something that should see a place in a codex that doesn't revolve solely around the Sororitas only.

What I'd ask is, what would your idea of the Frateris Militia be other than 'Guardsmen Lite'?

WS3 BS2 S2 T3 I3 A1(2) W1 Ld5(6) Sv- Frateris Militia (Fanatic)

10-50 models, 3 points each; one model may be upgraded to Fanatic for FREE.

Laspistol and Close Combat Weapon
1 in 5 may exchange either for Flamer (+5 pts) or Demolition Charge (+10 pts).

Why only S2? Even untrained whiteshields and mutilated chaos cultists are S3. S2 is for mini people like children, halflings and gretchin.

People don't count the Avenger for the same reason they don't count the Aquila or the Arvus or, half the time, the Repressor - they're Forge World, so people forget them.

Hwang, for some reason, thinks S3 is a gift of honor.

I knew there was a reason I had to click 'Show this post' to find out what he was saying...

Nobody has even mentioned sexier power armor, which is obviously priority #1

Yeaahh... any capable human is S3. I would stat them out like so:

Frateris Militia: 30 points

WS: 2 BS: 2 S: 3 T: 3 I: 3 A: 1 W: 1 LD: 7 SV: 6+

Unit:
10 Frateris Militia

USR:
Fearless
Zealot

Wargear:
Autogun
Frag Grenades

Options:
May purchase up to 20 more Frateris Militia: 3 points per model

Any model may exchange it's autogun for a Autopistol+CCW.... Free

1 in five models may exchange their autogun for a Flamer: 5 pts

1in 10 models may exchange their autogun for a Heavy Stubber: 10 pts


Basically, make them loyalist cultists.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Yeaahh... any capable human is S3. I would stat them out like so:

Frateris Militia: 30 points

WS: 2 BS: 2 S: 3 T: 3 I: 3 A: 1 W: 1 LD: 7 SV: 6+

Unit:
10 Frateris Militia

USR:
Fearless
Zealot

Wargear:
Autogun
Frag Grenades

Options:
May purchase up to 20 more Frateris Militia: 3 points per model

Any model may exchange it's autogun for a Autopistol+CCW.... Free

1 in five models may exchange their autogun for a Flamer: 5 pts

1in 10 models may exchange their autogun for a Heavy Stubber: 10 pts


Basically, make them loyalist cultists.

Id field these. Park their rear end on an Objective, go to ground, never move.

[ delete: whoops, misread. ]

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Yeaahh... any capable human is S3.

1in 10 models may exchange their autogun for a Heavy Stubber: 10 pts

Heck, Sisters should be S2 (women actually are weaker than men), and it's a huge stretch for them to be S3*. Assuming S3 for Frateris Militia is just as big of a stretch. These are the return of Medieval Crusaders. In the grimdark future, they would be illiterate, malnourished, homeless poor. They very well could be entirely Children.

I still prefer Demolition Charges over Heavy Stubbers - indiscriminate use of IEDs is more thematic. And effective.

S3 represents a broad spectrum of force. From the force of a human's punch to a gunshot. 40k doesn't have the granularity to represent differing strength levels between someone who exercises a lot and someone who doesn't.

Additionally, Sisters are highly trained soldiers who exercise quite a bit. I would think that they would be stronger than some gak who just got his flak armor and lasgun yesterday and told to go die for the Emperor.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Heck, Sisters should be S2 (women actually are weaker than men)

They are not housewives... they're a professional army in power armor.

Get it together dude

I'd actually say this would be better - without leadership, they should be basically useless;


Frateris Militia: 20 points

Militia: WS: 2 BS: 2 S: 3 T: 3 I: 3 A: 1 W: 1 LD: 5 SV: 6+
Priest: WS: 3 BS: 3 S: 3 T: 3 I: 3 A: 2 W: 1 LD: 7 SV: 5+/4++

Unit:
10 Frateris Militia

USR:
Fearless (Priest Only)
Hatred (Priest Only)
War Hymns (Priest Only)
Zealot

Wargear:
Autopistol
Close-combat weapon (Priest only)
Rosarius (Priest only)

Options:
May purchase up to 30 more Frateris Militia: 2 points per model
May purchase a Priest: 30 points
- A Priest may take weapons from the Melee or Ranged weapon lists.
- A unit that includes a Priest may be given the Rage special rule: +2 points/model
Any model may take a close-combat weapon: 1 point
Any model may swap its Autopistol for an Autogun: Free
1 in 10 models may exchange their autogun for a Flamer: 5 pts
1 in 10 models may exchange their autogun for a Heavy Stubber: 10 pts
1 in 5 models may take an Exterminator: 3 points


Exterminator: Range: Template S: 3 AP6 Assault 1, One Use Only

Why is their Priest more expensive? Because of how much he brings to the unit, compared to what he'd bring to a 20-strong Sororitas blob. He increases the militia's survivability massively with his 4++ and Fearless, and their killing power twice over with rerolls to hit and wound. He also unlocks the Rage ability, which doubles their base combat effectiveness as well.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Heck, Sisters should be S2 (women actually are weaker than men)

They are not housewives... they're a professional army in power armor.

Get it together dude

Here I actually disagree. S2 is things like Astropaths - people who are not really meant for combat. SoB are trained soldiers, hell, they are in PA! They certainly should be S3.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
USR:
Fearless (Priest Only)
Hatred (Priest Only)
War Hymns (Priest Only)
Zealot

Seems a bit redundant.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
S3 represents a broad spectrum of force. From the force of a human's punch to a gunshot. 40k doesn't have the granularity to represent differing strength levels between someone who exercises a lot and someone who doesn't.

Additionally, Sisters are highly trained soldiers who exercise quite a bit. I would think that they would be stronger than some gak who just got his flak armor and lasgun yesterday and told to go die for the Emperor.

The granularity argument is getting tiresome, given that Sisters have gotten the benefit of the doubt in pretty much every stat element of their profile.

In the military, troops get in shape, because there is feth all else for a commander to have them do most of the time. Unlike a Conscript, a Guardsman is a (well-)trained soldier, and can be reasonably assumed to be exercising. Unlike a Sister, a Guardsmen doesn't spend half his waking hours on his knees taking communion and reading scripture (or are certain people moving away from the "warrior monk" nonsense? Can't have it both ways of a warrior monk that doesn't demonstrate devoutness). All else being equal, a Guardsmen should be stronger than a Sister by both biology and training.

Just ignore Hwang. He's apparently got it in his head that people forgot that he's a misogynist that views women as inherently inferior to men in every way except the ability to make babies and wants to remind everyone of this fact.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I'd actually say this would be better - without leadership, they should be basically useless;
[...]
Why is their Priest more expensive? Because of how much he brings to the unit, compared to what he'd bring to a 20-strong Sororitas blob. He increases the militia's survivability massively with his 4++ and Fearless, and their killing power twice over with rerolls to hit and wound. He also unlocks the Rage ability, which doubles their base combat effectiveness as well.

Hmm. I can see that working. My first instinct is to have them roll to check whether or not they move towards the closest enemy infantry on movement; on a 3+, you can move them howeveryo uwant, on a 1 or 2, they attempt to move closer so they can charge.

He also doesn't seem to understand that for a warrior monk, martial training is prayer.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
S3 represents a broad spectrum of force. From the force of a human's punch to a gunshot. 40k doesn't have the granularity to represent differing strength levels between someone who exercises a lot and someone who doesn't.

Additionally, Sisters are highly trained soldiers who exercise quite a bit. I would think that they would be stronger than some gak who just got his flak armor and lasgun yesterday and told to go die for the Emperor.

The granularity argument is getting tiresome, given that Sisters have gotten the benefit of the doubt in pretty much every stat element of their profile.

In the military, troops get in shape, because there is feth all else for a commander to have them do most of the time. Unlike a Conscript, a Guardsman is a (well-)trained soldier, and can be reasonably assumed to be exercising. Unlike a Sister, a Guardsmen doesn't spend half his waking hours on his knees taking communion and reading scripture (or are certain people moving away from the "warrior monk" nonsense? Can't have it both ways of a warrior monk that doesn't demonstrate devoutness). All else being equal, a Guardsmen should be stronger than a Sister by both biology and training.

They are in POWER ARMOR which boosts Strength, so thats still a bad argument. Also are you saying that Black Templars should be Strength 3 because they are being devote so they arent training as much as other marines?

Sisters and Storm Troopers come from the same school. Sisters are equipped in power armor and are professional soldiers. I highly doubt they don't do any PT.

And soldiers get in shape to meet the harsh requirements of the battlefield. Try to lug around a soldiers load without going through any physical training. Not only do you need to carry it for long distances but you need to run in it, shoot, climb over walls and other physically exhausting activities. Sisters need to carry a bolter, a suit of power armor, magazines, grenades, knives and whatever miscellaneous objects she may carry.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
S3 represents a broad spectrum of force. From the force of a human's punch to a gunshot. 40k doesn't have the granularity to represent differing strength levels between someone who exercises a lot and someone who doesn't.

Additionally, Sisters are highly trained soldiers who exercise quite a bit. I would think that they would be stronger than some gak who just got his flak armor and lasgun yesterday and told to go die for the Emperor.

The granularity argument is getting tiresome, given that Sisters have gotten the benefit of the doubt in pretty much every stat element of their profile.

In the military, troops get in shape, because there is feth all else for a commander to have them do most of the time. Unlike a Conscript, a Guardsman is a (well-)trained soldier, and can be reasonably assumed to be exercising. Unlike a Sister, a Guardsmen doesn't spend half his waking hours on his knees taking communion and reading scripture (or are certain people moving away from the "warrior monk" nonsense? Can't have it both ways of a warrior monk that doesn't demonstrate devoutness). All else being equal, a Guardsmen should be stronger than a Sister by both biology and training.

You've said many other good things in this thread so far, but here you are simply wrong. Sisters are much closer to humans - all other humans, in either direction - than they are to Gretchin.

Indeed, it's been explicitly stated in the various Sisters codices that training is prayer to the Sisters of Battle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:
You've said many other good things in this thread so far, but here you are simply wrong. Sisters are much closer to humans - all other humans, in either direction - than they are to Gretchin.

But Ashiraya, they're women, and in Hwang's mind, this makes them inferior to all other humans.

 Melissia wrote:
But Ashiraya, they're women, and in Hwang's mind, this makes them inferior to all other humans.

On one hand, I can see Hwang's reasoning. Men are in general physically stronger, and this is true when both genders are well trained as well. He is not wrong in that.

That said, I verily disagree that it is sufficient to justify a point of S in either direction, and a well-trained SoB (one in PA no less) is very likely stronger than an untrained man.

In order to have S2 as a human, you need to be like the Astropath - who due to his blindness likely gets so little exercise he suffers from muscle atrophy.

Astropathic atrophy is more likely to be associated with the calorific cost of psionic powers and being stuck in a chair most of their lives than with their blindness

 Ashiraya wrote:
On one hand, I can see Hwang's reasoning.

Chauvinism is easy to see, yes, but it's not really a discussion worth having in this thread.

Astropaths are weak because being an astropath weakens the body so much that they're puny by human standards.

I think you are being WAY too quick to just cry sexism and close your eyes instead of looking at it from a logical viewpoint.

He is wrong, but not because he is sexist, it is because his logic doesn't hold.

You can't prove someone wrong with emotion. 'He is wrong because he is a sexist/he was naughty to me earlier' is not enough.

His argument is wrong AND he's openly misogynistic. They aren't mutually exclusive. And the latter is plenty of reason for me to give him zero respect.

Why is he misogynistic? I do not think his placement of the S2/3 border is logical, but I have not seen him say he hates women.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Why is he misogynistic?

He's stated in the past that he views women as inherently inferior to men with the sole exception of the ability to give birth. There's a good reason why several people in this thread have mentioned they already have him on their ignore lists.