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I'm going to ask, did anyone here play Planetstrike?

Does anyone remember 3.5E CSM daemon summoning?

Assault from Deep Strike is not an untested concept. It has been tried before, in editions with much harsher mishap penalties (mishaps were auto-unit-kills back in 4E, and has twice the destruction chance on a mishap in 5E that they do now). It has never been anything but a disaster that proved to be insanely powerful.

The rules are currently schizophrenic on deep strike. An assault unit stands there and waves at you because they don't want people KOing units out of deep strike, but they seem to have no problem whatsoever with a sternguard pod, skyhammer devs, farsight bomb etc popping in and KOing units out of deep strike.

Either assault units need to even the tables and be able to do their damage out of DS just like shooty ones, or neither type should be able to rock people out during DS. EG deep strike could cause shooting to always be snapshots in addition to not charging.

topaxygouroun i wrote:I never said anything about Tau or IG, this was all you. The fact is that assaulting from DS would nerf scatbikes. As usually in the world, context matters, you stripped all of my comment except for the part that would make it seem irrelevant. So as I wrote clearly in my post yet you cheerfully elected to ignore, Tau would laugh off any deep striking armies with their interceptor riptides and missilesides. Ig should also be able to deploy so many bodies that deepstrike would become largely insignificant.

The armies that would really really hurt from such a change would be glass cannon armies like Eldar, which rely on their mobility and ridiculous shooting to come on top of the opposition. And that's perfectly fine by me, Eldar need the limited field.

If you want to nerf Scatbikers, there are a lot better and cleaner ways to do so. Interceptor shuts down your own shooting, and is ineffective if you have multiple unit arriving at the same time. Gunline armies would have no effective means of responding, as overwatch outside of Tau is rarely effective and bubble wrap units are very vulnerable to shooting. Think about it: do you really want Dark Eldar to be able to land a S7 T7 Corpsetheif claw with 3+ FnP exactly one inch away from your backfield units?

topaxygouroun i wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Once upon a time, it was possible to assault directly out of reservers. I built a couple lists that maximized that potential. I never lost a game. The end.

No, assaulting from deepstrike/reserve is a *terrible* idea, one which should not be in the game unless it comes at a severe penalty (automatically a disorderly charge made at Initiative 1, units may only charge a single enemy unit/may not multicharge) or is limited to very specific special character models.

Once upon a time units were not what they are now, shooting was definitely NOT what it is now and the biggest, toughest and meanest unit on any table was a carnifex or something of the like. Things have moved tremendously from that point, with LoW everywhere and D weapons chilling around for fun. You can't make a viable assumption based only on what used to happen once upon a time. You need to take today's evidence into account. And today's evidence is that close combat sucks terribly and the assault armies are reduced to even less than fluffy status.

One upon a time Blood Angels ruled the game thanks to consolidate into combat, and IG could blow armies off the table. Anecdotes are irrelevant in light of how the game has developed since.

Assault is powerful in the form of deathstars, but it relies on fast and tough units with various additional shenanigans to whether enemy shooting. If you want to improve assault, change how charges and overwatch work, not introduce yet another broken mechanic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
The rules are currently schizophrenic on deep strike. An assault unit stands there and waves at you because they don't want people KOing units out of deep strike, but they seem to have no problem whatsoever with a sternguard pod, skyhammer devs, farsight bomb etc popping in and KOing units out of deep strike.

Either assault units need to even the tables and be able to do their damage out of DS just like shooty ones, or neither type should be able to rock people out during DS. EG deep strike could cause shooting to always be snapshots in addition to not charging.

I could support some sort of penalty for shooting after deep-striking, but not snap shots. Maybe a penalty to Ballistic Skill?

I think they should be able to, but it's a disordered charge. Units can deep strike and shoot (and in some cases, like Deathwing, actually shoot better!) and assault units should have the same sort of deal.

Assault as through difficult, hitting at init 1 and with overwatch at full BS (because the chargers are disoriented).

Also, s̶i̶n̶c̶e̶ ̶d̶r̶o̶p̶p̶o̶d̶s̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶a̶s̶s̶a̶u̶l̶t̶ ̶v̶e̶h̶i̶c̶l̶e̶s̶ no assaulting from Droppods, or similar.

How's that?

Edit: Droppods are open-topped and thus assault.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
I could support some sort of penalty for shooting after deep-striking, but not snap shots. Maybe a penalty to Ballistic Skill?

I'd also be up for deep striking causing a penalty to a unit's BS.

Though, frankly, I think that's what snapshots should be anyway.

 devinple wrote:
Assault as through difficult, hitting at init 1 and with overwatch at full BS (because the chargers are disoriented).

Also, since droppods aren't assault vehicles no assaulting from Droppods, or similar.

How's that?

Drop Pods are open topped so are assault vehicles

I like the idea of having a penalty to Shooting after Deep Striking, that is far more 'balancing' then allowing Assault after Deep Strike.
Swinging at Initiative 1 is not enough, as the vast majority of the 'locked in combat' benefits occur simply by being locked in combat.

 Baldeagle91 wrote:

 CrashGordon94 wrote:
or a Platoon with only 1 Guardsman in it.

Wouldn't that be the result anyway by letting units assault from deepstrike?

 niv-mizzet wrote:
The rules are currently schizophrenic on deep strike. An assault unit stands there and waves at you because they don't want people KOing units out of deep strike, but they seem to have no problem whatsoever with a sternguard pod, skyhammer devs, farsight bomb etc popping in and KOing units out of deep strike.

There's a lot more you can do against that in terms of castling up and defense, but at the same time, there's a lot of people who aren't ok with farsight bombs and skyhammer devs either

 Vaktathi wrote:
I'm going to ask, did anyone here play Planetstrike?

Does anyone remember 3.5E CSM daemon summoning?

Assault from Deep Strike is not an untested concept. It has been tried before, in editions with much harsher mishap penalties (mishaps were auto-unit-kills back in 4E, and has twice the destruction chance on a mishap in 5E that they do now). It has never been anything but a disaster that proved to be insanely powerful.

I remember, and thats why I am 100% against the idiotic idea of reintroducing it to the game.

The rules are currently schizophrenic on deep strike. An assault unit stands there and waves at you because they don't want people KOing units out of deep strike, but they seem to have no problem whatsoever with a sternguard pod, skyhammer devs, farsight bomb etc popping in and KOing units out of deep strike.

I would say deep striking shooting units should be toned down, if anything. It would help do away with the concept of suicide melta units, etc. A simple fix would be Deep Striking units fire their weapons at BS2. Done.

That, however, does not change the fact that a deepstriking assault unit is more capable than a deepstriking shooting unit. A shooting unit can only have 1 target, back in the day, a deepstriking assault unit could tie up multiple units, in fact, a single unit could tie up whole swathes of an army if your positioning was good and your opponent was unprepared for it.This was made worse by the fact that these units were able to consolidate into combat, and basically became immune to ever being shot at, meaning the only way to combat the dedicated melee unit was by having a better dedicated melee unit available.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
I'm going to ask, did anyone here play Planetstrike?

Does anyone remember 3.5E CSM daemon summoning?

Assault from Deep Strike is not an untested concept. It has been tried before, in editions with much harsher mishap penalties (mishaps were auto-unit-kills back in 4E, and has twice the destruction chance on a mishap in 5E that they do now). It has never been anything but a disaster that proved to be insanely powerful.

I remember, and thats why I am 100% against the idiotic idea of reintroducing it to the game/

Right? The nightmares this sort of thing caused were ridiculous.

All these people saying yes to assault out of deepstrike would change their tune real quick if nid drop pods suddenly allowed this. Or if ork ROK pods were made and could carry 20 orks. And allowed assault out of them. Its a broken mechanic. And this is from someone who has played orks since 3rd ed.

 Orock wrote:
All these people saying yes to assault out of deepstrike would change their tune real quick if nid drop pods suddenly allowed this. Or if ork ROK pods were made and could carry 20 orks. And allowed assault out of them. Its a broken mechanic. And this is from someone who has played orks since 3rd ed.

Or the Farsight Bomb drops, vapourises one unit with plasma fire, fires Farsights Plasma shots at a different, less dangerous unit, hits two tanks with Melta shots and then assaults the unit Farsight shot at to avoid being shot on the opponents turn. End of the opponents assault phase and if they're still in combat then the bomb uses hit and run to get out of combat and do it all over again.

My opinion is that there should be three types of Deep Strike. Have it broken down into Deep Strike (Teleport), Deep Strike (Descent), and Deep Strike (Ambush.) This way you can have each type server a different purpose and have unique drawbacks. Let Teleport shoot upon deep strike so that you can still have shooting based units use it effectively. Let Descent have rules similar to what Swooping Hawks do, let each model make one attack against a target unit within 6" as they descend onto the battlefield. Let Ambush be for things like Tyranids, units that sole role is to appear and strike with surprise. This way you can have the best of all worlds with just some fairly simple additions to the game.

How about instead of letting the DS unit assault, making it so that the opposing player can only snap fire at a deep striking unit until a full game turn after it deep strikes? Fluffy (they were surprised) and doesn't seem too imbalanced (they can reposition to accommodate).

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
How about instead of letting the DS unit assault, making it so that the opposing player can only snap fire at a deep striking unit until a full game turn after it deep strikes? Fluffy (they were surprised) and doesn't seem too imbalanced (they can reposition to accommodate).

It's all fun and games until someone drops a 20-strong unit of Flayed ones or a Draigo-star in and your one chance to do something about them went bye-bye, especially when it would make them immune to blast and template weapons.

 CrownAxe wrote:

Rihgu wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

dominuschao wrote:
meanwhile powerhouse ranged units are free to drop in and erase 1+ units with ease and without reprise. Let the assault side have similar and for once give it to a faction that needs it.

This is no where near as powerful as letting a unit assault out of deep strike. For one a shooting unit only does damage to a single unit at a time which is no where near close to the list of things assault units get to do (can't be shot at, can attack in both player's turns, prevents enemy unit from moving or shooting, can sweeping advance even off a single wound, can do all of this to multiple enemy units with multi-charging). And second of all anything a shooting unit can do when deep striking can be done by a unit that was already on the board (such as blowing up a tank)

Well, isn't that true of assault? A unit on the board can assault and do that list of things you said they can do.

I can shoot units with weapons from my deployment zone

I can't charge a unit from my deployment zone

Tachyon Arrow has Range: Infinite.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
How about instead of letting the DS unit assault, making it so that the opposing player can only snap fire at a deep striking unit until a full game turn after it deep strikes? Fluffy (they were surprised) and doesn't seem too imbalanced (they can reposition to accommodate).

It's all fun and games until someone drops a 20-strong unit of Flayed ones or a Draigo-star in and your one chance to do something about them went bye-bye, especially when it would make them immune to blast and template weapons.

At least you had a chance. What chance do Warp Talons have? You could have moved. When Draigo or a giant horde of flayed ones comes near, you should be turning heels.

I think the real question is, does 40k need more alpha strike?

This thread is discussing the means, while ignoring the ends.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
How about instead of letting the DS unit assault, making it so that the opposing player can only snap fire at a deep striking unit until a full game turn after it deep strikes? Fluffy (they were surprised) and doesn't seem too imbalanced (they can reposition to accommodate).

It's all fun and games until someone drops a 20-strong unit of Flayed ones or a Draigo-star in and your one chance to do something about them went bye-bye, especially when it would make them immune to blast and template weapons.

At least you had a chance. What chance do Warp Talons have? You could have moved. When Draigo or a giant horde of flayed ones comes near, you should be turning heels.

Please your comparing one unit to a whole army? IG already has a tough time, now any drop pod army or GK army would table them turn 1. First turn whole formation deep strikes, unloads its guns at close range and charges what is left over and the IG player can hope his loaded dice won't get noticed too much.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Assaulting from deepstrile is a bad idea. Maybe assaulting from infiltrate and scout if you went second could work, but having turn one charges with no chance of retaliation is not fair or interactive so no.

there is nothing preventing assaulting from turn one. you mean first turn player?

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
How about instead of letting the DS unit assault, making it so that the opposing player can only snap fire at a deep striking unit until a full game turn after it deep strikes? Fluffy (they were surprised) and doesn't seem too imbalanced (they can reposition to accommodate).

It's all fun and games until someone drops a 20-strong unit of Flayed ones or a Draigo-star in and your one chance to do something about them went bye-bye, especially when it would make them immune to blast and template weapons.

At least you had a chance. What chance do Warp Talons have? You could have moved. When Draigo or a giant horde of flayed ones comes near, you should be turning heels.

In theory, sure. In practice that doesn't work so much. Not everything is an Eldar Jetbike that can simply relocate to the other side of the table, and if it's a critical location, relocation may not be an option. With an assault threat bubble potentially up to 40" in diameter (6" move+ up to 12" assault move, with 3-4" unit base radius in any direction), it can often be basically impossible to vacate that threat range, and that's assuming a footslogging unit.

Changing core rules to fix Warp Talons is the wrong way to fix Warp Talons. If Warp Talons really need that, then make it specific to them and put some restrictions on it (e.g. Warp Talons may assault from deep strike, but may only begin rolling for availability on turn 3).

Being new to the game I can't for the life of me understand why some one can DS me with meltas and take out what they want but if I deep strike I have to get shot up a round before I can do my thing. My army is kdk so don't seem fair but I guess there must be reasons. I play casual so whatever. Pass the pretzels while you shoot at me this round

I voted no. NO. NO

Right now assault is far too powerful as it is. Assault troops find getting in to melee far to easy and can quickly massacre anything that they encounter there with a shocking ease. Now I know that there are those assault lovers out there whom will cry heresy at my post but hear me out, please.
I play Imperial Guard. We are not a melee army and our strength relies upon shooting the out of the enemy long before they reach us. This is an extremely difficult task for us to pull as we are relying upon overpriced weapons and joke guns that are usually being fired at BS stupidly low and our close quarters capacity is really, really, crap to the point of being unable to fight at all in assaults (seriously, even with overwatch my Veterans will rarely put more than a single wound on a Tactical Squad). As you can imagine my priority is usually to feth up incoming assault stuff fast.
Now on to the Deepstriking part. This is where things go from oh crap to of in a matter of a dice roll. Suddenly my opponents crap is dropping in left right and centre. Now in the good old days of 40K when the game did not obviously cater to the average 10 year old space marine player the act of deepstriking was incredibly risky. There where very, very, very, few wargear pieces that would let you drop in without a scatter and unlike todays "hold their hand and pamper them" deepstrike rules scattering into terrain or an enemy unit was actually really, really, bad. If even one model just brushed a terrain piece or an enemy unit then the entire unit had to roll on the mishap table and the results where so utterly nasty that it actually made deepstrike a risky tactic, although a real game winner if you could pull it off.
Fast forward a few editions and now we have pamperhammer in space. Deepstrike is almost entirely without risk, with multiple wargear options providing a no scatter bubble to dedicated transports like the fething droppod allowing units coming in to drop as close as they like to the target with no fear of mishap. And even if you lack these glorious options then you only roll on the mishap table if you hit an enemy unit - and in all honesty that mishap table is a pale comparison to its former self - and hitting terrain has no effect whatsoever.

Deepstriking is really strong - my army, Inquisitor and all, was tabled by a Grey Knight army that used the nemesis formation and dropped in. Did they assault? No, at least not at first. They just shot every unit of mine in the vicinity to gak. And THEN on turn two, after my responding fire killed not enough, they assaulted and pretty much tabled me. Right now both Assault and Deepstrike are too powerful. Deepstrike units tend to be damn tough and usually just bounce everything I throw at them (Someone earlier was going on about how an IG Veteran Section can kill an entire squad in one turn of shooting - someone whom was obviously talking out of their ass and has never faced IG before - even Melta vets will struggle to kill three MEQ's) whilst assault units basially laugh at me. Ooohh, scary overwatch. So much firepower, such nasty overpowered BS 1 lasguns. Really? I am lucky if I can even inflict a couple of hits and I can think of only one occasion when Overwatch actually did anything to my opponent (he lost A basic marine).

So no, assaulting from Deepstrike is far to powerful and would pretty much break what little semblance of balance we have left. Deepstriking and assaulting should have its risks. Stop whining and in all honesty deal with it.

 niv-mizzet wrote:
The rules are currently schizophrenic on deep strike. An assault unit stands there and waves at you because they don't want people KOing units out of deep strike, but they seem to have no problem whatsoever with a sternguard pod, skyhammer devs, farsight bomb etc popping in and KOing units out of deep strike.

The super-majority of shooty units that deep-strike don't have nearly as much burst-damage potential as melee units, and the ones that do, such as the units/formation you've mentioned, are almost universally reviled in the community for being unbalanced.

Which frankly is just another mark against assaulting from deep-strike, as a huge number of melee units can match the damage potential of Farsight bomb/Skyhammer while being much cheaper and prolific, if they could assault out of deep-strike.

It costs 540 points to drop 60 daemonettes on the board. 60 daemonettes can easily kill over a thousand points of stuff in a single turn if they all manage to get the charge off.

Grimlineman wrote:
Being new to the game I can't for the life of me understand why some one can DS me with meltas and take out what they want but if I deep strike I have to get shot up a round before I can do my thing. My army is kdk so don't seem fair but I guess there must be reasons. I play casual so whatever. Pass the pretzels while you shoot at me this round

Those meltas are good at engaging just one thing, vehicles, and cover saves can really bork up a couple of meltaguns, there's a good number of defensive options. A couple of BS4 meltaguns against a 4+ cover save AV14 Leman Russ tank are, on average, more often than not whiff entirely even assuming they land right and in double-pen range, and will only explode their target in about 1-in-8 attempts. Meanwhile a Tac squad landing out of a drop pod and assaulting a Leman Russ are going to have a much easier and safer time ensuring proper range and will have a far greater chance of killing the tank because they ignore the cover save and get to hit rear armor instead of AV14.

Hell, if you could assault from Deep Strike, you could actually do both, melta the tank, and then assault it if you fail to kill it

"Right now assault is far too powerful as it is. "

That is an absurd statement.

". Right now both Assault and Deepstrike are too powerful."

Nope. You to be doing something wrong in list construction because I can cripple deep striking GK with BA's crappy firepower. You only need to kill around 15-20 models and their army falls apart.

" Deepstrike units tend to be damn tough "

You mean invis centurions are too tough. Everything else that deep strikes is asking to get its face shot off in short order. And they do.

Martel732 wrote:
"Right now assault is far too powerful as it is. "

That is an absurd statement.

". Right now both Assault and Deepstrike are too powerful."

Nope. You to be doing something wrong in list construction because I can cripple deep striking GK with BA's crappy firepower. You only need to kill around 15-20 models and their army falls apart.

Yeah, but did you know he plays guard????

 GangstaMuffin24 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Right now assault is far too powerful as it is. "

That is an absurd statement.

". Right now both Assault and Deepstrike are too powerful."

Nope. You to be doing something wrong in list construction because I can cripple deep striking GK with BA's crappy firepower. You only need to kill around 15-20 models and their army falls apart.

Yeah, but did you know he plays guard????

Guard only have about triple the firepower of a BA list. Woe is they.