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I'd show up with any battleforged list and then call you on being unbound with 3 out-of-detachment drop pods, instantly winning. (fleshtearers only bring 6 pods to the yard, not 9, or they'd have to charge!)

In all seriousness, pod-heavy gladius should be able to pull off 50% exactly over a large sample size. IE whoever goes first loses. In theory at least. With no threatening vehicles on your side, if I had to go first, I would snackrifice all my melta squads so that the anti-infantry (flamers etc) land after your initial drop. Doing that and the whole having free hundreds of points might snag it an upset victory every once in a while that it goes first.

I haven't gotten to really inspect the new raven guard stuff but I hear they have a detachment bonus that lets you reroll to see who chooses first turn. If that detachment could be used to do a pod list, or be taken as a detachment IN a pod list, that would be a very significant hurdle for your list. Being forced to go first against a null deployment 75% of the time with pods would suck.

Also skyhammer would do pretty well. Being able to choose to come in t2 in case they get first turn, plus all the pinning.

Ok, I am confident my current TAC list would murder this. Why? Void Shield Generator. ITC rules is currently that Haywire doesnt affect Void Shield, rendering my army effectively invulnerable to shooting from your drop as I can easily fill out the bubble so you can't fit in. I'd personally drop some of that Haywire for Plas, there's no way you'll need THAT much haywire unless playing 5 knights.

How many points is that, Orock? I'm pretty sure I could take it down with my standard Battle Sister list.

 Orock wrote:
Flesh tearers detatchment

apothecary

5x scouts with bolters

9x drop pods

skitarii detatchment

10x skitarii warlord 3x plasma calivers omnispex, arkhans divinator.
10x skitarii 3x arc rifles omnispex
10x skitarii 3x arc rifles omnispex
10x skitarii 3x arc rifles omnispex
10x skitarii 3x arc rifles omnispex
10x skitarii 3x arc rifles omnispex
10x skitarii 2x arc rifles omnispex
10x skitarii 2x arc rifles omnispex

Imperial assassins

Culexus assassin

I love your Blood Angels army! This is why I chose to play BA, they just rock!

 jifel wrote:
Ok, I am confident my current TAC list would murder this. Why? Void Shield Generator. ITC rules is currently that Haywire doesnt affect Void Shield, rendering my army effectively invulnerable to shooting from your drop as I can easily fill out the bubble so you can't fit in. I'd personally drop some of that Haywire for Plas, there's no way you'll need THAT much haywire unless playing 5 knights.

Nobody cares how ITC decided to rule Haywire on Void Shields. Keep your house rules out of the thread.

1850 list. Yeah i hadent considered lists specifically tailored to beat my list though. A full void shield list would usually win, but again its TAC. A list that is designed to compete with the meta. And if we are list tailoring i could just change the list. Unless you are saying that is your standard list. In that case i would probably have to drop the pods and go for objectives.

Dont forget though. The arc rifles are haywire, BUT they are ALSO base str 6. And they could take the void shields down.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I actually played this list against gladius drop pods with my friend. Had to proxy some of the pods. Only used 7 with 5 basic marines so only foue on the drop. But it won and i still had to go first.

 Orock wrote:
Flesh tearers detatchment

apothecary

5x scouts with bolters

9x drop pods

skitarii detatchment

10x skitarii warlord 3x plasma calivers omnispex, arkhans divinator.
10x skitarii 3x arc rifles omnispex
10x skitarii 3x arc rifles omnispex
10x skitarii 3x arc rifles omnispex
10x skitarii 3x arc rifles omnispex
10x skitarii 3x arc rifles omnispex
10x skitarii 2x arc rifles omnispex
10x skitarii 2x arc rifles omnispex

Imperial assassins

Culexus assassin

This is in no way my own original design, but I feel it has the tools to deal with any army out there. The best dark angels are going to get are 3+ rerollable cover because of omnispex. there are so many arc rifles and coming in from different angles you could probably kill 3 knights on the drop turn 1. anything with a toughness value is vulnerable to radium carbines with their 2 wounds on 6s wounding anything on a six, even wraithknights. And if you clustered all your pods as close as possible to prevent scatter, you could do something like 112 hits with the 2 pods with only 2 arc rifles each and 3 other pods just from radium carbines and BS 7 alone. thats 19 wounds x 2 each, 38 saves for thunderwolf calvary to make. The arc rifles would add in another 22 hits, and wound on 3s for another 14 wounds. Taking 3+ and FnP even with 4+ Fnp from psychic shenanigans, thats still 9 wounds, a hefty hit to your death star. You have a culexus to deal with really bad psychic problems who can drop in next to them and remove the buffs before your firepower wipes them out. And you have volume of shots for flyers, and even an arkhans divinator for a second shot at identifying objectives and more chance at skyfire nexuses.

Someone said TAC was absolutley dead, and while I agree its on life support, I wouuldnt say its completely dead. What would win against this more than 50 precent of the time, barring terrible luck, thus not making it TAC?

++ Chaos Space Marines: Codex (2012) (Combined Arms Detachment) (770pts) ++

+ (No Category) +

Force Options (Supplement options here) [No unique force (Vanilla CSM Codex)]

+ HQ (160pts) +

Sorcerer (160pts) [2x Additional Mastery Level, Combi-bolter, Force Sword, Melta bombs, Spell familiar, Terminator Armour, Veterans of the Long War, Warlord]

+ Troops (100pts) +

Chaos Cultists (50pts) [Cultist Champion, 9x Cultists]

Chaos Cultists (50pts) [Cultist Champion, 9x Cultists]

+ Fast Attack (510pts) +

Heldrake (170pts) [Baleflamer]

Heldrake (170pts) [Baleflamer]

Heldrake (170pts) [Baleflamer]

++ Tyranids: Codex (2014) (Tyr Hive Fleet Detachement) (810pts) ++

+ HQ (690pts) +

Hive Tyrant (230pts) [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]

Hive Tyrant (230pts) [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]

Hive Tyrant (230pts) [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]

+ Troops (120pts) +

Termagant Brood (40pts) [10x Fleshborer Termagant]

Termagant Brood (40pts) [10x Fleshborer Termagant]

Termagant Brood (40pts) [10x Fleshborer Termagant]

++ Tyranids: Codex (2014) (Allied Detachment) (270pts) ++

+ HQ (230pts) +

Hive Tyrant (230pts) [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]

+ Troops (40pts) +

Termagant Brood (40pts) [10x Fleshborer Termagant]

Any air heavy list would murder that. You have nothing to counter.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 jifel wrote:
Ok, I am confident my current TAC list would murder this. Why? Void Shield Generator. ITC rules is currently that Haywire doesnt affect Void Shield, rendering my army effectively invulnerable to shooting from your drop as I can easily fill out the bubble so you can't fit in. I'd personally drop some of that Haywire for Plas, there's no way you'll need THAT much haywire unless playing 5 knights.

Nobody cares how ITC decided to rule Haywire on Void Shields. Keep your house rules out of the thread.

You're certainly feeling the Christmas Spirit.

I wanna toss my newb friendly CSM list at this.

Lord, Stead, MoS, PF, LC sigil@165

4x10 noise marines 2 blast masters

5x Spawns@150

oblitz, MoN@ 76
oblitz, MoN@ 76
oblitz, MoN@ 76

1503pts.
Maybe i toss in a heldrake n another spawn squad.

Since you are not taking the best upgrade for Skitarii. Conversion fields are great 4++ for your army...

As noted, lots of flying stuff would be murder on that list. Something like a Penta-tyrant list would have a field day methinks.

I mean, I don't think my IG list would see turn 4 ever, but a grip of Hive Tyrants would be nasty.

I have played against a 3 flyrant/mawloc/lictor list. With all the shooting i managed to kill 2 flyrants turn one. The last one made his grounding test but only took one wound. And he went first. The shooting is great from them but i got saves and between the three of them only lost 18 vanguard. Then the pods came in and nobody scattered completely out of range. The culexus being centered between my squads helped. He probably should have used a tyrant to shoot him. Even at bs 1 twin linked would have been 3 or 4 hits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But again i think people are missing the point of the list. Its a TAC list. Designed to fight in a tournament or pickup game. Anyone could take some time and list tailor to beat it. Its not what the topic is about. It was about showing you can still design tac lists.

I'm not really sure that unbound armies like this can be called truly TAC or if any tournament would allow unbound armies to be fielded.

Anything with a building should wreck your day since haywire doesn't affect buildings and plasma can't glance AV14.

The old cron air would probably wreck your gak. Lord in a bastion with comms (but this time he actually goes inside the bastion since you literally can't hurt him). Then 2 min immortals in night scythes and as many doomscythes as you can take in deathbringer flights.

Hell, normal Decuricrons should be able to weather that sort of firepower and come back swinging anyway.

Skyhammer plus marines in pods should ruin you too, since they don't have to commit their forces turn 1 while most of your pods need to come down early (I'm assuming the 9 pods was a typo and you meant 6).

Flyrant spam should work too, take 3-4, maybe a mawlock or 2 plus a venomthrope and a sufficient amount of small gribblies as troops to push out pods from landing inside a VSG bubble and you're done. Yeah, it's "only" a 3+ cover, but with enough MC's, you'll be in trouble, and depending on rulings on the shields, you might well be totally screwed depending on game type as well.

Gladius could probably also give you fits, if nothing else because your alpha strike force kills 5-6 rhinos and then the marines pile out and wreck your gak. Heaven forfend if they took a librarius conclave, cause then you're probably boned as you have no answer to shriek or invis and they can easily hide in units.

Guardsman body spam behind an aegis with a bunch of psychers rolling telepathy for shrouded/invis (or just bite the bullet and pay for cypher) would also ruin your day, since it'd take you forever to dig them out of cover and they'd have a sufficient amount of conscripts with priest to simply multi charge you and in the end, they've got more bodies than you. Bonus points for Azreal and his helm of trolling. Triple bonus points for Coteaz.

GK strike force should be able to come in and cleansing flame/incinerator/heavy incinerator your face off if they go 2nd.

Daemons should be able to cheese it with screamerstar/drone bus and some LOS blocking terrain.

Any Tau force with a heavy amount of HYMP Broadsides and HBC Riptides (if only there was a formation that allowed us to only take tho ... oh, wait!) would give you fits. They shoot before you do and Str 6/7 wounds you on 2's and ignores your armour and FNP. Emperor forbid that they somehow get some markerlights on there as well (if only there was a formation that allowed BS3 intercepting marker dro .. oh, wait!) to ensure you have no saves at all and their BS is better too.

CSM are probably screwed, with overcosted units, no interceptor, no first turn deep strike, no reliable reserves and no hugley OP power units (bar the heldrake, but he's not going to help here) but that's not news to anyone.

Eldar can seer council your face off, especially if they rolled eldritch storm, buff their WK, jink then turbo boost their scatbikes, DS their swooping hawks, play the reserves game with an autarch. Autarch in a buiding with comms relay, jetbikes in reserve, council in reserve, doesn't matter what else you have. You can't hurt the building, you can't hurt the autarch, eldar rape your face when all their toys come on the board turn 2.

Spess woofs can run thunderdome with DA and take enough sorcerors that they should get Invis to negate your BS boosting shenanigans. If they get real lucky, they can even stick a chump with precognition out the front and pretend to be a necron and then multicharge you to death, but that's pretty reliant on rolling the right powers. Still, with enough psychers, it's not too far fetched, especially since we're only looking for a +50% win rate rather than total dominance.

DE can Null deploy using scalpel squadron and everything in boats and they do as they please with your dudes when they come down. Again, Llamean in a bastion with comms for the win to ensure everything they have comes in turn 2.

Probably some other stuff too, but I think that's probably a sufficient number of examples for now.

Whoops, Read the Culexus as Callidus, post amended.

Drone net formation with 16 Interceptor markerlights, and then Deathrain squads, HYMP Broadsides, and EWO lockdown Pulse Driver stormsurges, perhaps.
Missile massacre for sure.

 Orock wrote:
Flesh tearers detatchment

apothecary

5x scouts with bolters

9x drop pods

skitarii detatchment

10x skitarii warlord 3x plasma calivers omnispex, arkhans divinator.
10x skitarii 3x arc rifles omnispex
10x skitarii 3x arc rifles omnispex
10x skitarii 3x arc rifles omnispex
10x skitarii 3x arc rifles omnispex
10x skitarii 3x arc rifles omnispex
10x skitarii 2x arc rifles omnispex
10x skitarii 2x arc rifles omnispex

Imperial assassins

Culexus assassin

This is in no way my own original design, but I feel it has the tools to deal with any army out there. The best dark angels are going to get are 3+ rerollable cover because of omnispex. there are so many arc rifles and coming in from different angles you could probably kill 3 knights on the drop turn 1. anything with a toughness value is vulnerable to radium carbines with their 2 wounds on 6s wounding anything on a six, even wraithknights. And if you clustered all your pods as close as possible to prevent scatter, you could do something like 112 hits with the 2 pods with only 2 arc rifles each and 3 other pods just from radium carbines and BS 7 alone. thats 19 wounds x 2 each, 38 saves for thunderwolf calvary to make. The arc rifles would add in another 22 hits, and wound on 3s for another 14 wounds. Taking 3+ and FnP even with 4+ Fnp from psychic shenanigans, thats still 9 wounds, a hefty hit to your death star. You have a culexus to deal with really bad psychic problems who can drop in next to them and remove the buffs before your firepower wipes them out. And you have volume of shots for flyers, and even an arkhans divinator for a second shot at identifying objectives and more chance at skyfire nexuses.

Someone said TAC was absolutley dead, and while I agree its on life support, I wouuldnt say its completely dead. What would win against this more than 50 precent of the time, barring terrible luck, thus not making it TAC?

It is a solid list. However, as others have already mentioned before, your list currently isn't Battle-forged legal. The Flesh Tearers Strike Force only allows you a maximum of 6 Fast Attacks.

Now with that said, I feel that there's a lot of lists out there that can give your drop pod list a run for its money. But more importantly, it isn't the lists that will probably give you problems. Rather, it is the generals behind those lists that will give you problems. A top list run by a top-notch player is what would win probably more than 50% of the time against your list.

Here are a few lists that will give your lists problems, especially when commandeered by a skillful general.

1. Flyrant-spam Tyranids. My very own Tyranid list has 5 dakka flyrants w/egrubs, mucolids and 4 mawlocs. If I go first, flyrants take off into the air. If I go 2nd, I reserve my flyrants against your alpha-strike and give you only mucolids in ruins with 2+ cover to shoot at (well, 3+ cover for you). Maybe I leave 1 mawloc deployed as well to give you something to chew on.

2. Tau. Tau has so many Interceptor and Ignores Cover weaponry that they should be able to give your list (or almost any other reserves-based list) a jolly bad time. Plus with riptides and ghostkeels, they have the resiliency to survive enemy alpha-strikes.

3. Space Wolves Thunderdome deathstar list, either with TWC base or Ravenwing Black Knights as a base + Librarius Conclave. This build is just stupid, even without the psychic powers on. If your alpha-strike can't do enough damage to it, then it's going to overrun your list, even with your Culexus there.

4. Daemons. Daemons are just one of those armies that just don't give a ship. As long as they can get their powers/buffs off, there isn't any army they can't beat. However, they are vulnerable if you can get the alpha-strike off. For example, I currently run a Chaos Knight with a 2++ Invulnerable if I can get the Grimoire off. Good luck with that. Go first and you have a chance. Go 2nd and it could be an uphill battle for you.

5. Battle Company Space Marines. I have a friend who runs double-Battle Companies at 1850 using Dark Angels. He's got 45+ ObSec units!!! Sure, he can't kill anything, but good luck trying to take Maelstrom points off of his army. This army is just a nightmare to play against in any Objectives-based scenario.

6. Eldar w/multiple Wraithknights. As CrownAxe mentioned, an Eldar Battle-forged army can legally take a 5-WK list at 1850 (though I think 4 is the sweet spot). That is a nightmare for almost any army to play against other than grav-happy marines. However, there are other, very dangerous Eldar builds especially now with the Mymeara Corsairs book out. For example, a Battle-forged army of Warp Spiders, anyone? Even scatbike-spam is potentially a problem. Run 2 farseers on bikes, 2 WK's and 12x3 scatterbikes. Deploy only the WK's and everything else comes in from reserves for a nasty beta-strike.

7. Grav-marines with Skyhammer. This is a list one of my friend runs and he won a GT with it (TSHFT). He also got 2nd Overall at the ATC (out of almost 180 people). It involves the Skyhammer, 3x3 GravCents, 2 librarians, 3 tact squads and a total of 8 Drop pods (oh, and Coteaz as well). He can set his army up for a devastating 1st or 2nd Turn alpha/beta-strike.

8. Necron Decurion. Decurion, Lychstar and 1 or 2 Destroyer Cults. You can't kill his Deathstar, it is just too tough. List is similar to Ben Mohlie's Necrons which I believe won (or maybe got 2nd?) at Wargamescon.

9. My 1400-pt centstar has the ability to take your alpha-strike and still kill 2 units a turn. I will finish off the Culexus in 1 turn of shooting, though it would take all of my firepower to do so (thus, buying your army another turn of shooting). But after that, have fun against my Invisible star. This matchup will probably be a coin-flip in most cases.

There are more problematic matchups IMO. All of these armies have the tools to compete against your list. However, it is the general behind that list that will make it over-the-top.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Drasius wrote:
Anything with a building should wreck your day since haywire doesn't affect buildings and plasma can't glance AV14.

Haywire works just fine against buildings. What you are probably thinking about is Graviton, which doesn't affect buildings.

OP I suggest you first Battle Forge your list, replace or add more detachments to the Flesh Tearers like Company of the Great Wolf detachment for 6 more droppods or double CotGW/Flesh Tearers etc...

My tau list would destroy this.

My lack of next turn shooting doesnt matter if all the threats are dead from interceptor. Then i just jump away or move priority targets into cover or block LOS.
TAC isnt dead. Its just trickier to do. Your list is nice, but its hardly invincible.

Haywire affects buildings, just not the void shields

Honestly that list would be decent against most armies. It would have a lot of trouble against another alpha strike army though. If you faced grey knights in pods with their incinerators or any type of deep strike army, you would have a hard time. If you went second you'd have a good shot at doing a lot of damage to the alpha strike from their army, but incinerators are the bane of skitarri due to STR 6 and AP 4. Also any army that used MSU would give you a lot of trouble. turn 1 you could shoot 5 units at most. Giving other units time to line up and destroy you.

So I need to ask because I am not 100% familier. Only one guy plays skitarii/mechanicus in our group. What is the profile of the arc rifles? and are those different from the plasma rifles your guys can take?

I can say first hand that my friends 2k list of skitarii/mechanicus would probably beat yours 50% of the time at least. He is doing some shenanigans and getting like 700 points of free upgrades. Playing him with my Tau. even after intercept I have lost 3 riptides turn 1... which sucks a lot... of course he has vanguard, grav destroyers and other threats which could more easily take down MCs.

 Kimchi Gamer wrote:
Unless you have Heywire Grenades somewhere I would say, a single Landraider?

I lol'd

I am interested on how it would work against an R&H list, especially an artillery heavy one. If you get first turn, it would be bad for me, but if I get first turn, I could push my army forward enough so that you cannot rapid fire my artillery, or drop anywhere near it. That is a whole hell of a lot of bullets, which would tear through heretics left and right.

My current 1850 R&H artillery list has 9 units of artillery with ordnance tyrant, so there is no hiding in CC. This one has a hefty chunk of daemon allies for giggles.
I would love to see a bat rep of one of those vassal games.

 Orock wrote:

But again i think people are missing the point of the list. Its a TAC list. Designed to fight in a tournament or pickup game. Anyone could take some time and list tailor to beat it. Its not what the topic is about. It was about showing you can still design tac lists.

That's exactly what this topic is about...your thread title is literally, "Can you make a list my list can't take?" Actively inviting people to create a list to beat this list.

Also obligatory Maelstrom comment. Drop Pod alpha strike armies suck at Maelstrom which an increasing amount of tournaments have.

It is hard for me to judge. I have yet to see an Unbound army as we pretty much don't use them. It was deemed so abusable we stayed away from it. I think you may have built an army in error, thinking it was Batte Forged?

Dependent on who goes first a GK nemesis strike force would have an easy time with this list.

I think jy2 called it right, most of the current "top" builds have game against this list. It also seriously hurts that you'll only be able to get 3 drop pods in turn one... not much of an alpha strike, and if you're planning on walking those skitarii, even with scout you're going to be disappointed. I've seen lists similar to this (actually played one at BAO).

The list I played dropped several of the skitarii units and the culexis for a grav skyhammer, and was particularly effective. I believe he dropped 3 skitarii pods with a mix of haywire and plasma, as well as the skyhammer turn 1.

4X 5 black knights, 1x4 black knights, 3 X level 2 librarians, 2 X support squadron with 3 hb/cyclone land speeders, darkshroud.

2+ rr jink -1 due to your special rule, turn 1 you possibly kill 1/2 black knights and no vehicles, turn 2 you are shot at full Bs then assaulted, I can't see your list killing this.