Daemon Primarch Magnus/Wrath of Magnus/Traitor Legions Codex Supplement/Thousand Sons

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**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Kaiyanwang wrote:
[THAT MOVIE DOES NOT EXIST][EXPUNGED FROM ARCHIVES].

Do you mean rookie ultramarine on their first mission wearing full power armor and fighting against a new chaos space marine warband called “The Redshirts”?

**Troy**

Not a fan of the chest horns or eye socket horns. Guermo Del Toro could almost sue over that, its such a rip.

This model seems far to beefy to be inline with other Tzeentch demons. ON the other hand, one could modify it slightly for a different take on a Bloodthirster or other demon prince.

**Kaiyanwang**

Requizen wrote:

Why is the army dead? You seem to just be saying "this happened and now it's dead" with no reasoning as to why. But what realistically could they change that would invalidate your whole army or make it inconsistent?

because Dark Angels would change direction. Allies in home campaings, as an example. Or equipment in future iterations. The story progresses, so next edition, DA kit with mutations. Is a ship of theseus problem: for how long they would be "our" dark angels?

Make it so all loyalist DAs are now Traitors? They wouldn't do that because it's too big of a difference.
Change the army's color scheme, forcing you to repaint? Again, they wouldn't do that because it's been established forever now. If you're a successor chapter, it doesn't even matter to you.
Remove Ravenwing and Deathwing? See #1. Wouldn't happen, it's too iconic.

This remembers me AoS discussions. But you say I am insane, so...
Also: do not try to say it again. Just don't.

The issue I'm having with this thread is that people are taking off the wall, completely ridiculous leaps. We've gone from "new primarch model" to "GW will change the very foundations of the game to the point that no current army will exist and we all have to start from scratch". Can you rationalize that? Can you really, truly, actually rationalize that leap of logic?

People explained why a 40k primarch model means a clear shift on the focus of the game, lore wise, and implies a continuation of a shift of the rules, model/size/scope wise.
I fail to understand how and why this is not a reasonable concern.

**Gamgee**

One loyalist primarch will turn bad, and one traitor primarch will turn good or was secretly good the whole time or insert lore reason here. Is what I should have said.

**Red Corsair**

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
I'll tackle this, since you're being a bit dense about it.

Say you play Dark Angels. And now they bring back Lion El'Johnson. Except surprise, the Watchers in the Dark weren't guarding him, they were guarding *against* him. He's corrupted by chaos. He's a traitor. Most of the Dark Angels and their successors fall in line with him, a crazy civil war is fought. Azrael and a minority of Dark Angels live on as scattered rag-tag rebels while The Lion quests to become a Daemon Prince.

What a great story, right? What a cool twist that plays on the themes of the Dark Angels while giving you two new factions to play that aren't like the old Dark Angels at all - the New Fallen and the Survivors or whatever.

Except it's not just a story, it's a new setting now. The story you wanted is a few campaign books. The new setting is the result of it, because this is what you asked for - shaking things up. And the 8th edition Dark Angels codex will reflect this. Tons of space will be dedicated to fleshing out the new reality, while a bone will be thrown to grognards in the form of a few paragraphs describing what the Dark Angels used to be like.

Sure, you can keep your old fashioned Dark Angels army with its outdated organization and color scheme and you can play things out in 999M41as long as you like, because you know the old fluff and have old sources and you can approximate things with the 8th edition rules.

But your army is dead as you know it. New players will not understand the theme or tone or history of your army, because it isnt written about in new material. And all because some people couldn't comprehend how to enjoy the game unless something galaxy-shaking huge and crazy happened to some named characters in a campaign book.

"They wouldn't do something that nuts!" you might say. But then again, look at AoS. It's totally possible. And if they don't do something nuts, have they actually advanced the story like you want? If things aren't different, what is the point? By definition you want the setting to change. Fortunately I think GW is smarter than that. They know the setting is the cash-cow. They won't disrupt it.

Except your not being fair here. Last I checked my 2nd edition blood angels never had sanguinary guard, the sanguinore, librarian dreads, storm ravens etc etc. My brothers Dark Angels never had Plasma talons, corvus hammers, DJ land speeder, DW Knights, Black Knights. Or lets tackle centurions or Grav for a minute. Storm Talons? Terminators are troops, then not, assault squads the same.

Funny how all these things have been invalidating armies for years yet the setting and the hobby moves on just fine yet whenever anyone mentions a primarch someone goes off the deep end on one of these forums. Primarchs are already a thing from forge world and nobody is complaining about that ruining the early lore. Yet when we talk about the future, something unwritten, the sky is falling. None of this even touches on the fact that we still don't even know what direction things will take.

Edit: BTW I really enjoyed your plot there btw. I do see your point as well.

**MajorTom11**

kronk wrote:
Gamgee wrote:
There is also allegedly one chaos primarch who will turn out to be good. If what I'm remembering turns out to be true.

? Chaos Primarch or Traitor Primarch? There's a difference. Where the hell did Alpharius/Omegron go, anyway?

The theory is that only one of them was killed, and the other is at large still. It is also implied both in fact survived and the death was faked entirely. Overall, in the last books in the HH series, it seems that the AL is breaking with the Cabal, this does not mean a move towards chaos necessarily, or, a move back to the Imperium. It is certain though that they went renegade for the sake of humanity, not in spite of it, and may well still be loyal.

Lorgar, Angron, Magnus, Fulgrim, Perturabo and Mortarion are full blown Daemons now, so I doubt they could come back, with the possible exception of Fulgrim who's true soul may be intact. Otherwise, of the living renegade primarchs, only Alpharius would be eligible to turn good again in terms of not being a Daemon.

**Kaiyanwang**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Kaiyanwang wrote:
[THAT MOVIE DOES NOT EXIST][EXPUNGED FROM ARCHIVES].

Do you mean rookie ultramarine on their first mission wearing full power armor and fighting against a new chaos space marine warband called “The Redshirts”?

is the one with the Black Legionnaires with ADHD and learning disabilities?

**CalgarsPimpHand**

The issue I'm having with this thread is that people are taking off the wall, completely ridiculous leaps. We've gone from "new primarch model" to "GW will change the very foundations of the game to the point that no current army will exist and we all have to start from scratch". Can you rationalize that? Can you really, truly, actually rationalize that leap of logic?

My post was entirely in the context of "if they wanted to advance the story". What I wrote is perfectly logical within the setting and is a smaller change than AoS made to Fantasy.

Note I added another paragraph to say that no, GW is smarter than people who want "story progression". They know the setting is more important than anything else, so they handle it with kid gloves. Which is why I believe the return of the loyalist primarchs will be nonsensically underwhelming. What would really happen is something along the lines of what I wrote in severity (or worse) and no one wants that bar a few people in this thread. What will end up happening is Lion El'Johnson will be Azrael +1 in a campaign book with no other repercussions.

**Slayer-Fan123**

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
I'll tackle this, since you're being a bit dense about it.

Say you play Dark Angels. And now they bring back Lion El'Johnson. Except surprise, the Watchers in the Dark weren't guarding him, they were guarding *against* him. He's corrupted by chaos. He's a traitor. Most of the Dark Angels and their successors fall in line with him, a crazy civil war is fought. Azrael and a minority of Dark Angels live on as scattered rag-tag rebels while The Lion quests to become a Daemon Prince.

What a great story, right? What a cool twist that plays on the themes of the Dark Angels while giving you two new factions to play that aren't like the old Dark Angels at all - the New Fallen and the Survivors or whatever.

Except it's not just a story, it's a new setting now. The story you wanted is a few campaign books. The new setting is the result of it, because this is what you asked for - shaking things up. And the 8th edition Dark Angels codex will reflect this. Tons of space will be dedicated to fleshing out the new reality, while a bone will be thrown to grognards in the form of a few paragraphs describing what the Dark Angels used to be like.

Sure, you can keep your old fashioned Dark Angels army with its outdated organization and color scheme and you can play things out in 999M41as long as you like, because you know the old fluff and have old sources and you can approximate things with the 8th edition rules.

But your army is dead as you know it. New players will not understand the theme or tone or history of your army, because it isnt written about in new material. And all because some people couldn't comprehend how to enjoy the game unless something galaxy-shaking huge and crazy happened to some named characters in a campaign book.

"They wouldn't do something that nuts!" you might say. But then again, look at AoS. It's totally possible. And if they don't do something nuts, have they actually advanced the story like you want? If things aren't different, what is the point? By definition you want the setting to change. Fortunately I think GW is smarter than that. They know the setting is the cash-cow. They won't disrupt it.

So? Armies die all the time. Look at the Badab War; Astral Claws players aren't dissatisfied.

**Roknar**

Troy wrote:
Not a fan of the chest horns or eye socket horns. Guermo Del Toro could almost sue over that, its such a rip.

This model seems far to beefy to be inline with other Tzeentch demons. ON the other hand, one could modify it slightly for a different take on a Bloodthirster or other demon prince.

It's not a random daemon, it's an ascended Primarch. IIRC Manus was the strongest primarch in terms of raw strength not combat prowess. The guy was huge even before ascension and as far as I can recall he always had those horns.
The model is pretty accurate as far as I can tell. In fact he could almost pass as mortal magnus if not for the wings and feet/hands, not to mention size.

**Requizen**

Kaiyanwang wrote:
Requizen wrote:

Why is the army dead? You seem to just be saying "this happened and now it's dead" with no reasoning as to why. But what realistically could they change that would invalidate your whole army or make it inconsistent?

because Dark Angels would change direction. Allies in home campaings, as an example. Or equipment in future iterations. The story progresses, so next edition, DA kit with mutations. Is a ship of theseus problem: for how long they would be "our" dark angels?

To Red Corsair's point: how is this any different from previous changes? Were they "your" Dark Angels when they were in Angels of Death? When did they become "your Dark Angels"? Maybe GW's Dark Angels are the ones from Rogue Trader and they want to go back to that. Not saying they will, but taking such a stubborn stance against change that has happened time and time again with no real consequences is pretty silly.

This remembers me AoS discussions. But you say I am insane, so...
Also: do not try to say it again. Just don't.

Perhaps I should clarify.

These sorts of changes would be insane for GW to make, especially given their current upward trend as a company. If you think they will make an insane decision with no data to back it up, you are just fearmongering and the claim should be ignored.

People explained why a 40k primarch model means a clear shift on the focus of the game, lore wise, and implies a continuation of a shift of the rules, model/size/scope wise.
I fail to understand how and why this is not a reasonable concern.

And none of those arguments were really all that rational. Fenris blowing up? Armies getting removed? Even "my special snowflake chapter will be invalidated if they change this one sector" is on shaky ground.

**NinthMusketeer**

Fluff advancing isn't inherently good or bad; some customers will like it, others will not. What makes it a good decision is the fact that it will drive sales. Those who don't like that will have to make do -- maybe 40k isn't your game anymore. But trying to say it's a bad choice because of xyz is irrelevant in the face of sales. If it's any solace you could run your army/setting/campaign in a historical sense. After all, that is the idea behind the entirety of 30k.

**kronk**

MajorTom11 wrote:

Lorgar, Angron, Magnus, Fulgrim, Perturabo and Mortarion are full blown Daemons now, so I doubt they could come back, with the possible exception of Fulgrim who's true soul may be intact. Otherwise, of the living renegade primarchs, only Alpharius would be eligible to turn good again in terms of not being a Daemon.

That's what I was getting at, but much better said. Once they turned to Chaos, that's it. I don't think that Slaneesh will let Fulgrim's spirit/soul free, but we'll see. Alpharius (or Omegron) would be the only traitor primarch left that could "turn back to good".

**Fayric**

I think the "red" part has more to do with the egyptian theme rather than tzeench.
The common egyptian was depicted with red skin, if I recall correctly. That would fit with magnus tanned "coppery" skin in a way beeing red.
Also the god seth was depicted with a donkey brush of red hair,

(And Seths battles with Horus is also kind of interresting; basicly, while the true god ruler, Osiris, is reduced to a be corpse on a throne passively channeling his soul power, there is a great civil war between Seth and Horus for the reign of the land.)

**GoatboyBeta**

Troy wrote:
Not a fan of the chest horns or eye socket horns. Guermo Del Toro could almost sue over that, its such a rip.

This model seems far to beefy to be inline with other Tzeentch demons. ON the other hand, one could modify it slightly for a different take on a Bloodthirster or other demon prince.

Eye socket horns

Did I miss an alternate head reveal? His horns are on his forhead/helm.

**gorgon**

kronk wrote:
MajorTom11 wrote:

Lorgar, Angron, Magnus, Fulgrim, Perturabo and Mortarion are full blown Daemons now, so I doubt they could come back, with the possible exception of Fulgrim who's true soul may be intact. Otherwise, of the living renegade primarchs, only Alpharius would be eligible to turn good again in terms of not being a Daemon.

That's what I was getting at, but much better said. Once they turned to Chaos, that's it. I don't think that Slaneesh will let Fulgrim's spirit/soul free, but we'll see. Alpharius (or Omegron) would be the only traitor primarch left that could "turn back to good".

Well...it's possible that the Lion could be the one 'turning back to good,' depending on what you believe.

**Don Savik**

I find it strange that people are complaining about parts of Magnus that have been there since the beginning. I mean the old school Jes Goodwin days. Do they not even know who this guy is? I guess complainers gotta complain about something.

I definitely do not think that kit will be used as part of a lord of change kit. Say what you will about Skarbrand but Skarbrand is just a fancy bloodthirster, NOT a character as prolific as a primarch. I personally wouldn't want a tzeentch army with more than one model with those giant wings bumping into everything thats for sure.

As for lore, people are going a little crazy over it. I personally think that chaos needed something to make them seem like the actual big bad of the universe. I mean, not even demons are scary when the imperium has a deus ex machina army called the Grey Knights. Demon Primarch seems the next logical step. Planets blowing up? We call that exterminatus and it happens quite often in the universe. Armies being invalidated? I guarantee it won't happen. You can quote me on that and I'll bet 10 bucks. They still want you to buy the models. Making a space marine army 'evil' invalidates a lot of models they could be selling. They want money. 1+1=2

**Abadabadoobaddon**

Are those skulls I see peaking out through holes in the skin on his arms? Has the whole AoS Chaos Is Made Out of Skulls! thing made it to 40k?

**SickSix**

Looks good except the horns over eye sockets. I don't like that part. His whole thing was missing one eye and now they have masked that/ covered it up.

**Zewrath**

Roknar wrote:
Troy wrote:
Not a fan of the chest horns or eye socket horns. Guermo Del Toro could almost sue over that, its such a rip.

This model seems far to beefy to be inline with other Tzeentch demons. ON the other hand, one could modify it slightly for a different take on a Bloodthirster or other demon prince.

It's not a random daemon, it's an ascended Primarch. IIRC Manus was the strongest in terms of raw strength not combat prowess. The guy was huge even before ascension and as far as I can recall he always had those horns.
The model is pretty accurate as far as I can tell. In fact he could almost pass as mortal magnus if not for the wings and feet/hands, not to mention size.

I don't even think he increased much in size tbh, if memory serves me Magnus was a giant even amongst the primarchs and he dwarfed several of the bigger primarchs, that was also the reason he was known as the Cyclops, a one-eyed giant.
And yes, you are partly correct, he always wore a crown-like headpiece featuring two horns and if you look at the new plastic model you can actually see that the horns are on his forehead, not on his eyesockets as many here seems to believe.

Furthermore, what's with all this nonsense about End Times 40K? Both rumour mongers with perfect track records have stated several times that there will be no such thing. Both of these sources were correct about everything so far so why the sudden doubt and wailing of impending doom?

**Orlanth**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Kaiyanwang wrote:
[THAT MOVIE DOES NOT EXIST][EXPUNGED FROM ARCHIVES].

Do you mean rookie ultramarine on their first mission wearing full power armor and fighting against a new chaos space marine warband called “The Redshirts”?

black Legion roll their armour saves on d3.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kaiyanwang wrote:

Gladriel kicking Saurons ass is [THAT MOVIE DOES NOT EXIST][EXPUNGED FROM ARCHIVES]. Let's say is fanfiction. Should not count. But let's take it seriously: In the books in unclear and is in an appendix. So is more like the Armageddon campaign and Angron fading on the background.

I get it now. Yes I agree Jackson should have stuck with exploding sheep. It is notable that all the failures in Jacksons films based on Tolkiens works are concerning elements that were not in the books. He got some fanfilm stuff done well, I didn't mind the combining of Treebeard and Tom Bombadil/Old Man Willow, or Radagast with his Rhosgobel rabbits, or the elves at Helms Deep, but most of his 'wouldnt it be cool if' end in utter failure.

**Iron_Captain**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Kaiyanwang wrote:
[THAT MOVIE DOES NOT EXIST][EXPUNGED FROM ARCHIVES].

Do you mean rookie ultramarine on their first mission wearing full power armor and fighting against a new chaos space marine warband called “The Redshirts”?

Why did you have to do that?
I had almost forgotten that horror...

**Neronoxx**

Lots of people complaining for the sake of other people who may not even be upset at all.
Pro-tip, you look really pathetic. If the story moving forward (or more accurately, sideways as it has done for its entire life) I have to ask why are you still here?
Because it surely isn't because of the fluff.
Which would mean you wouldn't be concerned about a shift in the lore, because thats not why you enjoy 40k.

**GoatboyBeta**

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Are those skulls I see peaking out through holes in the skin on his arms? Has the whole AoS Chaos Is Made Out of Skulls! thing made it to 40k?

On his forarms and right leg? They look like power armour interface sockets to me. The larger patch around his right elbow looks like some kind of cabling. The right hand also looks larger(is that an eyball in his palm?) and less human like than his left, did he loose a hand during the Heresy?

**streetsamurai**

Yodhrin wrote:
Pilum wrote:
To play devils advocate, Yodhrin, *technically* the daemon primarchs have always been around in 40k.

I do share some of your misgivings about the execution, though bear in mind I'm still a bit 'off' that the veil was pulled back from the Heresy, so I am possibly just a cantankerous old stick-in-the-mud!

On topic model looks ok to me, personally doubt that I'll ever take the plunge but that's more space and chosen armies than the model itself. I do know at least one friend who's "no more new stuff" policy could be facing it's sternest test yet.

It's not the Daemon Primarchs specifically that are at issue, it's that them getting models removes the last shred of wilful self-delusion I could muster that Sad Panda, Atia etc were wrong about Loyalist Primarchs returning. The worst they can do by bringing back Magnus is screw up the Space Wolves and Thousand Sons, which is regrettable but hardly setting-ending. The implications of the Loyalists returning though...that's not a 40K I have any interest in. It would shatter the Imperium probably causing another Heresy-esque civil war and a descent into horrible, overwrought, End Times-esque storylines that rob the setting of one of its most defining charactertistics(the sense of impending doom - a sword that's already been shoved through the top of your head isn't a Sword of Damocles any more), or else would require a fundamental tonal shift to a more positive, optimistic view where the Imperium actually has a chance at victory. Plus it would put even more focus on Space Marines generally and the "big four" particularly(or three, rather, assuming they don't have Sanguinor pull a Scooby Do moment and peel off the mask to reveal he was Big Papa Baal all along).

COuldn't say it any better. This direction 40k is taking sounds like a catastrophe. Adding more superheroes will only make the world more boring and less grimdark (tm). WHis is sad since GWhave been on the right path with 40k (don't get me started with AOS) for the last few years.

**Requizen**

streetsamurai wrote:
Yodhrin wrote:
Pilum wrote:
To play devils advocate, Yodhrin, *technically* the daemon primarchs have always been around in 40k.

I do share some of your misgivings about the execution, though bear in mind I'm still a bit 'off' that the veil was pulled back from the Heresy, so I am possibly just a cantankerous old stick-in-the-mud!

On topic model looks ok to me, personally doubt that I'll ever take the plunge but that's more space and chosen armies than the model itself. I do know at least one friend who's "no more new stuff" policy could be facing it's sternest test yet.

It's not the Daemon Primarchs specifically that are at issue, it's that them getting models removes the last shred of wilful self-delusion I could muster that Sad Panda, Atia etc were wrong about Loyalist Primarchs returning. The worst they can do by bringing back Magnus is screw up the Space Wolves and Thousand Sons, which is regrettable but hardly setting-ending. The implications of the Loyalists returning though...that's not a 40K I have any interest in. It would shatter the Imperium probably causing another Heresy-esque civil war and a descent into horrible, overwrought, End Times-esque storylines that rob the setting of one of its most defining charactertistics(the sense of impending doom - a sword that's already been shoved through the top of your head isn't a Sword of Damocles any more), or else would require a fundamental tonal shift to a more positive, optimistic view where the Imperium actually has a chance at victory. Plus it would put even more focus on Space Marines generally and the "big four" particularly(or three, rather, assuming they don't have Sanguinor pull a Scooby Do moment and peel off the mask to reveal he was Big Papa Baal all along).

COuldn't say it any better. This direction 40k is taking sounds like a catastrophe. Adding more superheroes will only make the world more boring and less grimdark (tm). WHis is sad since GWhave been on the right path with 40k (don't get me started with AOS) for the last few years.

More superheroes? 40k has had superheroes for a long time now, this isn't new. I've said it in this thread, there's plenty already in the game that's lore-wise as big, powerful, and important as Primarchs.

Primarchs will not make the world less grimdark. Especially not Daemon ones.

**streetsamurai**

Daemon primarch won't, I agree. But Loyalist ones will. Since they are superheroes compared to the already superheroes SM. And the rumourmongers that predicted the arrival of Magnus all said that we will also get loyalist Primarchs.

**Requizen**

Yeah, the inclusion of a few flawed and contemptuous individuals isn't going to undo the grimdark of an entire galaxy, especially when the lore itself shows it was just as crappy with them kicking around. I don't think you have anything to worry about.

**Unusual Suspect**

Superhero-esque Primarchs swooping in and saving the Imperium would ruin the Grimdark.

Superhero-esque Primarchs swooping in and, despite their prodigious skill, knowledge, wisdom, and raw potency, FAILING to do more than marginally slow the ticking of the doomsday clock... that seems like it would fit just fine in the setting.

**streetsamurai**

Not really. Because they will take the center stage of the fight against Chaos. Whether they fail or sucess is irrevelant to the point I make. The point being that They will be the main protagonist of the fight against Chaos, and they will relegate the SM and the IG to some faceless background characters that you see in manga (where they don't even bother to draw their faces).

Whether this is a good thing or a bad thing is entirely subjective, but it will have a tremedous impact on the setting