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Daedalus81 wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
[

Kans/Sentinels going from AV10 to T5 is a pretty big drop in their survivability against small arms. Pulse Rifles go from needing 5s to glance and 6s to pen to 4s to wound with that change.

But then they don't get crippled by a pen roll and keep marching?

Instead they get crippled by weight of small arms fire?

 mrhappyface wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
[

Kans/Sentinels going from AV10 to T5 is a pretty big drop in their survivability against small arms. Pulse Rifles go from needing 5s to glance and 6s to pen to 4s to wound with that change.

But then they don't get crippled by a pen roll and keep marching?

Instead they get crippled by weight of small arms fire?

That's a better alternative. They'd at the very least have an okay save too.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
[

Kans/Sentinels going from AV10 to T5 is a pretty big drop in their survivability against small arms. Pulse Rifles go from needing 5s to glance and 6s to pen to 4s to wound with that change.

But then they don't get crippled by a pen roll and keep marching?

Pen results are least of kans worries. With HP2(W2) odds of being blown by it are pretty slim and most results are not crippling.

T5 would mean also doubling efficiency for bolters and make it possible to kill even with LASGUNS which before couldn't hurt it.

Overall T5 would be huge nerf.

Frankly fixing vechile vs MC shouldn't be done by making vehicles MC. It should be done by making vehicles good enough! Frankly there IS difference between how organic and mechanical things work so playing them in same way is pretty silly. Problem isn't that there are MC's and vehicles. Problem is some things that should be vehicles are MC's and the rule balance is pretty bad. Fix those 2 issues rather than removing vehicle rules completely.

Sentinels and Killa Kanz would be easier to wound as MC's with T5, but you could give them 3 wounds and a 4+ save to make up for that. When converting walkers to monstrous creatures the toughness value isn't everything; just adjust the saves and number of wounds if toughness is an issue

Daedalus81 wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
[

Kans/Sentinels going from AV10 to T5 is a pretty big drop in their survivability against small arms. Pulse Rifles go from needing 5s to glance and 6s to pen to 4s to wound with that change.

But then they don't get crippled by a pen roll and keep marching?

Instead they just die.

He simply applied the wrong T value. AV10 is essentially T6, from there the values increase together, for example AV11 is T7. We already have HP's on vehicles which are for all intensive purposes wounds except currently vehicles have no armor save but even worse if you roll higher then needed to "wound" a vehicle, it has debilitating consequences. Imagine if I shot a krack missile S8 at your Tervigon T6 or essentially AV10 but so long as I rolled better then a 2, 3+, we rolled on a unit damaged chart and he could be forced to snap fire next turn at minimum. It is the number one reason why MC's are SOOOOOO painfully better then vehicles.

And before someone shouts, "yea brah but grav" grav is so obviously broken right now and in dire need of a rewrite. There is currently no reason for taking none grav items when there is the "option."

If we look at how Fantasy MC were converted to AoS.

Quick example would be Zombie Dragon:
Fantasy W6 5+ Save
AoS W14 4+ Save

If we used a metric like this you could see a Sentinel being T5-6 with 8 Wounds and a 4-5+ Save. They could add a new special rule like Mechanical which would mean the model always gets it's save unless the weapon has the Heavy, Rend/Armourbane or a Strength value of 7-8 or more rule. There are many ways to do it and I would guess they add the Rend mechanic from AoS.

As for Grav, all Grav weapons should be changed to Ap- or at best Rend -1 (They should reintroduce rending to 40K, Orks used to have it with their Choppas in 3E if I'm not mistaken).

And more for the community page
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2016/11/24/looking-forward-to-wrath-of-magnus-daemons/

Looks like poor old Fenris really is in for a beat down :(

Tzeentch’s Horrors get a rules update: Pink Horrors can now split into two Blue Horrors upon their death. And Blue Horrors can then further split into Brimstone Horrors when they die. Both Blue Horrors and Brimstone Horrors are available to include in your forces, both as units in their own right, or to represent splintered Pink Horrors.



Correct me if I'm wrong but there are no Brimstone Horrors available at the moment? Are we looking at a new kit for Flamers or am I completely out of the loop?

It's like people expect their opponents to be incapable of killing Magnus. Seems like an unreasonable expectation. He already is a FMC so most of your high strength or D strength is gonna outright miss him without Skyfire, so what's the big deal? We also haven't seen his other rules yet... he may have FNP, or -1 strength of shooting against him, or psychic void shields, or who else knows? Wait for the whole thing to come out before losing your freaking minds.

Quick question, does anyone even bother with the blue horrors rule? I always forget that pink horrors have this rule.

Also what do people think of not just blue horrors but now brimstone? Layers of horrors inside of horrors. On the one hand we have more things to remember and role for but on the other hand these are independent models now, potential fire nurglings for Tzeentch?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MadCowCrazy wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but there are no Brimstone Horrors available at the moment? Are we looking at a new kit for Flamers or am I completely out of the loop?

They are brand new.

 MadCowCrazy wrote:
Tzeentch’s Horrors get a rules update: Pink Horrors can now split into two Blue Horrors upon their death. And Blue Horrors can then further split into Brimstone Horrors when they die. Both Blue Horrors and Brimstone Horrors are available to include in your forces, both as units in their own right, or to represent splintered Pink Horrors.



Correct me if I'm wrong but there are no Brimstone Horrors available at the moment? Are we looking at a new kit for Flamers or am I completely out of the loop?

That's the exalted flamer from the chariot kit, just put on a different base. I guess we will see a repackage of the blue and brimstone horrors, as the only way at the moment to make a unit of these guys is to buy loads of Silver Tower boxes and I dont think many people are gonna do that.

Had a look at GWs website and the flamer kit sold there says it's plastic, I don't remember them getting plastic flamers? When did this happen? The box art looks really old, like 3E old and I believe flamers were first metal and then finecast but I don't recall them being plastic and there are no pictures of a plastic sprue on GWs website.

The Flamer in the pic above is from the Chariot of Tzeentch, I don't believe I've seen those brimstone horrors before either or is there a kit with them out?

Edit:

I guess we will see a repackage of the blue and brimstone horrors

This makes sense, the Pink Horror plastic box isn't that old, didn't they get a new kit with the End Times or something. So a new box with blue and brimstone makes sense. How big are blue suppose to be? Before you just used differently colored horrors, are they smaller in the fluff? Trying to imagine what the box would be like? 5 blue and 5 brimstone? 10 blue and 5 brimestone? 10 blue box and a separate brimstone box ala Nurglings? Simply no blue box at all since you can just use pink horrors? So only a small 5-10 base box similar to Nurglings?

I find the last example the most plausible, no blue horror box but a small box of Brimstone Horrors

Brimstone horrors currently are only in Silver Tower.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Kans/Sentinels going from AV10 to T5 is a pretty big drop in their survivability against small arms. Pulse Rifles go from needing 5s to glance and 6s to pen to 4s to wound with that change.

Yeah but then the Kan/Sentinel gets an armour save.

Here is a picture of the Brimstone Horrors from Silver Tower, they are the exact same models from the pic above.


So they expect people to buy loads of Silver Tower? Ebay for them or use recasters?

Flamers have had a plastic kit for a good while, you have to buy the burning chariot to get the exalted flamer model

Hopefully they will rebox the brimstone horrors either with pink horrors (unlikely), or in their own box like they did with Exalted Flamers.

Blue horrors have always been smaller than Pink, as far as I know.
Makes sense as 1 pink = 2 blue.

Blues are half the size of pinks and brimstones are half again but come at 2 per base. The question is will it be 2 blues per pink ala old fluff ans 2 brim per blue or 1 to 1.

 MadCowCrazy wrote:
If we look at how Fantasy MC were converted to AoS.

Quick example would be Zombie Dragon:
Fantasy W6 5+ Save
AoS W14 4+ Save

If we used a metric like this you could see a Sentinel being T5-6 with 8 Wounds and a 4-5+ Save. They could add a new special rule like Mechanical which would mean the model always gets it's save unless the weapon has the Heavy, Rend/Armourbane or a Strength value of 7-8 or more rule. There are many ways to do it and I would guess they add the Rend mechanic from AoS.

As for Grav, all Grav weapons should be changed to Ap- or at best Rend -1 (They should reintroduce rending to 40K, Orks used to have it with their Choppas in 3E if I'm not mistaken).

In second edition 40k all weapons modified armors saves.

Skullhammer wrote:
Blues are half the size of pinks and brimstones are half again but come at 2 per base. The question is will it be 2 blues per pink ala old fluff ans 2 brim per blue or 1 to 1.

Exactly the same as AoS.
1 Pink = 2 Blues
1 Blue = 1 Base of Brimstone.

The community sites basically confirms this.

Aka a nightmare of endlessly splitting models.

Blue horrors returning is very cool! I'm intrigued about what they're planning with horrors... when was the last time pink horrors split into two blue horrors in 40k? I remember it but can't figure out when they were written out of the game (except for the minor special rule)

Horrors could become a crazy horde unit if this plays out as it might do

So for every 10 Pinkies you have in your army, you will need 20 Blues and 20 Brimstones.

Hope you boys have big model cases and bigger pockets for all the cash you will need.

 Snake Tortoise wrote:
Blue horrors returning is very cool! I'm intrigued about what they're planning with horrors... when was the last time pink horrors split into two blue horrors in 40k? I remember it but can't figure out when they were written out of the game (except for the minor special rule)

Horrors could become a crazy horde unit if this plays out as it might do

I'd say 4th, just before the souped up codex hit us hard in the jimmies, i don't remember then still doing the splitting in the 4th/5th ed Demons codex though...

So could that staff that was revealed by GWs community site be from the Blue Horror box?

 Red Corsair wrote:
He simply applied the wrong T value. AV10 is essentially T6, from there the values increase together, for example AV11 is T7. We already have HP's on vehicles which are for all intensive purposes wounds except currently vehicles have no armor save but even worse if you roll higher then needed to "wound" a vehicle, it has debilitating consequences. Imagine if I shot a krack missile S8 at your Tervigon T6 or essentially AV10 but so long as I rolled better then a 2, 3+, we rolled on a unit damaged chart and he could be forced to snap fire next turn at minimum. It is the number one reason why MC's are SOOOOOO painfully better then vehicles.

And before someone shouts, "yea brah but grav" grav is so obviously broken right now and in dire need of a rewrite. There is currently no reason for taking none grav items when there is the "option."

T6 for kans would still work differently than av. Including opening up vulnerability to stuff that before couldn't and frankly shouldn't be able to hurt them.

Don't make vehicles and MC's same. Keep them different but make them both useful. And make what should be vehicles vehicles.

I think the issue most players have is with walkers not standard vehicles, walkers are in a strange place rules wise as they act like a monsterous creature on the table top but even big powerful ones can be killed by one shot.

I think removing the vehicle damage table for walkers would instantly solve their weaknesses

Regarding Magnus not being T8+ or GMC, this is chaos we are talking about.

GW might take it easy with the power level for now, but give them a few months and they will be throwing around ridiculus survivability again