Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 adamsouza wrote:

Souba wrote:
Its also worth mentioning that Horrors only have access to the Tzeentch Discipline now. no longer daemonology.

NNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Oh well, it was fun while it lasted.

Is the Tzeentch discipline sny better now ?

As far as I can tell no, since its the same as before with 3 new spells.

well the 3 new spells arent bad though

one is a blessing that affects the psyker. every friendly psyker manifesting a power within 18" of him grants him a additional warp charge

then the 18" WC 2 focused witchfire with S6 ap 2 and d6 shots which causes instant death on to wound roll of 6's and spawning a chaos spawn for you if it kills a model

and the thirs power is like of the black legion cabal but a bit better: WC3 malediction. you can immediatly fire with the enemy unit as if it is your own unit and it also counts as not having moved. after the shooting the affected unit has to do a pinning check.

Wait, horrors use the tzeentch powers?
Not the change powers?

Because these are two different lists.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Wait, horrors use the tzeentch powers?
Not the change powers?

Because these are two different lists.

I think he/she meant Change only since they said no more Daemonology.

Well, doesnt mention Daemonology, but that doesnt means they cant not use it. Daemonology rules says that every psi on the game can use it but GK.

If not, even with the new blue and smaller horrors split, will be a huge nerf to summoning strategy

No giant hordes of Horror Nesting Dolls?

That's a shame. Would have loved to have seen someone pull that off.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
No giant hordes of Horror Nesting Dolls?

That's a shame. Would have loved to have seen someone pull that off.

Yeah I was thinking just that every time you open one up there is two in side hanging out. can you imagine someone bringing 6 units of 20? what a fething god awful experience that would be.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
No giant hordes of Horror Nesting Dolls?

That's a shame. Would have loved to have seen someone pull that off.

Yeah I was thinking just that every time you open one up there is two in side hanging out. can you imagine someone bringing 6 units of 20? what a fething god awful experience that would be.

You misspelled "fun".

The butt-hurt over the Primarchs is just anxiety; the setting has remained fairly static for decades; changes have come in the form of minor retcons, primarily.

That's fine, of course. And if that's how you like it, cool. The history is going to remain static for you. Rejoice!

However, GW is a games company and it primarily exists to release plastic figures and then rules to be able to use those figures in its games. As such, it needs to up its game constantly as regards to miniature design and production. The desirability of the miniatures depends on a number of things depending how you interact with the hobby; Do you buy the figures to paint, to model, to game? Are you fascinated by the fluff, whether historically or in terms of creating your own narratives, or even participating in unfolding narratives as part of an advancement of that fluff? Different strokes. But, it seems to me that not covering all of those bases just because one of the other ones might get butt-hurt over it would be a silly decision.

The Primarchs are this, in a nutshell.

Another few things: You might not have liked Age of Sigmar, or the process by which GW changed away from WFB to AoS. That's fine. I feel bad for you, bro. But your dislike does not mean that it was a failure. It appears to be doing very well out of. And the new models coming out look fantastic. Admittedly, I'm not a fantasy player. But the new AoS figures, as well as the new "Start Collecting" boxes are threatening to change that.

40k is not heading down a WFB-style End Times scenario where they'll be discontinuing or fundamentally changing the core game. AoS came about because of low sales. 40k is not experiencing low sales. Here's another thing:

40K IS ALREADY AN END TIMES SETTING. It's literally about as "end times" as it gets. The advancement of the fluff obviously brings the whole thing closer to some sort of ill-defined cataclysm (for humanity? The galaxy?), but the idea that the culmination of that unfolding narrative will result in anything like the massive discontinuations/recombination of armies like AoS is fearmongering nonsense of the highest order. Stop it. You look childish. It's a game. If anything, what has happened over the last year or so has actually added further diversity to the 40k universe. Thousand Sons, one of the most neglected aspects of the 40k Chaos legions/pantheon just got a full release and spun off into an army of their own right, just as their fans (like myself) have been begging for since.... well, the 1990s, really.

Again, GW are using this unfolding narrative to release models. Really great models (like the Glottkin and Nagash during the WFB End Times). That's all. You don't like Magnus? Fine, don't buy him. You don't like Robo-Guilliman (if the rumour is true)? Fine, don't buy him either.

Franarok wrote:
Well, doesnt mention Daemonology, but that doesnt means they cant not use it. Daemonology rules says that every psi on the game can use it but GK.

If not, even with the new blue and smaller horrors split, will be a huge nerf to summoning strategy

because that rule from the BRB was to adjust 6th edition books.
every codex after the 7th edition rulebook has all psykers explicitly mentioning their access to daemonology.

Warzone Fenris 1: Curse of the Wulfen had no unit updates except new formations, armoury and psychic powers aswell as adding belakor and exhalted flamers. <-- no changes to existing units within the codex: chaos daemons
Warzone Fenris 2: Wrath of Magnus has updated rules for Pink, Blue and Brimstone Horrors, and their entrys do not mention any daemonology at all. Consider that in the same Book, Ahriman has updated rules aswell and in his entry Daemonology is written.

as such: Pink, Blue and Brimstone Horrors may not use Daemonology, since they got updated Rules. However, all other entries except horrors in the Daemon Codex still have access to them, since their rules have not been updated yet.

Well, but all those others are CG, and they will have it for sure, no nothing new haha

also is most a hit to csm that use demons as ally, since only can place one herald, so the unit of horrors to help summoning was a nice punch. Now i guess will be just a warp battery xDD

Also will be important if they use the change old powers or the new theench ones. If just use the classic change powers...meh, mostly works to give feel no pain to the enemy haha, better use their dice with heralds or sorcerer.

In any case, the summoning strategy is nerfed with this..... Guess if GW will nerf marine formation that providex free transports...guess no xDD

Franarok wrote:
W

also is most a hit to csm that use demons as ally, since only can place one herald, so the unit of horrors to help summoning was a nice punch. Now i guess will be just a warp battery xDD

Why?
ally detachment is 1 Cg, but 1-4 heralds count as 1 cg
Also you can use DAC for only 30 pints more (brimstone horores are core)
Also there are a new formation that you can use 3-9 heralds

zamerion wrote:

Franarok wrote:
W

also is most a hit to csm that use demons as ally, since only can place one herald, so the unit of horrors to help summoning was a nice punch. Now i guess will be just a warp battery xDD

Why?
ally detachment is 1 Cg, but 1-4 heralds count as 1 cg
Also you can use DAC for only 30 pints more (brimstone horores are core)
Also there are a new formation that you can use 3-9 heralds

You can only take 4 in a single HQ slot in a primary detachment.
An allied detachment you'd be limited to 1 herald per slot.

If there are a formation with more heralds is a different thing

Rosebuddy wrote:

GoatboyBeta wrote:
As daft/improbable/kick ass(take your pick ) as Hulkbuster Gulliman sounds. It would answer the questions of how you make a non demon primarch fresh out of stasis different from his 30k model and fit in the same size/price bracket as Magnus.

I think that the best way to bring back an imperial primarch would be to have, for example Russ, come wandering out of nothingness and be just a very tired old man after thousands and thousands of years of fighting. Have him worn down, without any of his legendary equipment and missing an arm. Still pretty impressive, all things told, but ultimately just a little tougher and meaner than a chapter master. Any 40k primarch should be diminished. They'd still be a huge deal for their successors and cause massive schisms in the Imperium by simply existing but nothing you could smack down on the tabletop and totally wreck things with.

Why? We still have regular old space marines and chaos space marines who are 10,000 years old and still fighting? Age means nothing to these guys.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jackal wrote:

Which version came out first and in what year? Which version has the most novels and books? Which version has the most factions to work with? Material alone, there is enough written about the 40k universe to fill half a library.

Fantasy was released back in 83, 40k was released in 87.
So fantasy came first.

Fantasy also has more books by far.
Define factions? are we talking space marines in general or splitting all chapters?
Either way, fantasy yet again.

Doesnt matter how you cut it, fantasy came before 40k and the sheer volume of material for it is amazing.
So no, 40k does not have more "lore" to it atall.


Also, keep in mind your saying 40k, so all heresy era stuff is out aswell since that would be 30k at present.

You're telling me there's more fantasy stuff in the black library than 40k? And 30k is rolled into the 40k "universe" because it's part of the lore and fluff.

 nintura wrote:
You're telling me there's more fantasy stuff in the black library than 40k? And 30k is rolled into the 40k "universe" because it's part of the lore and fluff.

Worth keeping mind # of BL books!=amount of fluff game has.

tneva82 wrote:

 nintura wrote:
You're telling me there's more fantasy stuff in the black library than 40k? And 30k is rolled into the 40k "universe" because it's part of the lore and fluff.

Worth keeping mind # of BL books!=amount of fluff game has.

Then what would you go off of? Number of Codex? Supplements? Board games? Websites? Data?

The amount of fluff a game has != amount of fluff game has.

Do we know what each formation requires now or just their names and some of their benefits?

I'll probably have two lists, one more fluffy including most of the new releases and some demons and then one list that's more competitive that's mostly demons. Although, I really don't feel like running a full on horror focused army even if that ends up being the most competitive!

Any word on if the Mark of Tzeentch or Generating Powers rules have been updated to no longer require at least one roll on your deities' table?

I think it has been confirmed that the Rubric Marines dataslate just has the Tzeentch discipline on it for the Aspiring Sorcerer to generate on but I don't know do they have updated rules for the detachment or if it all falls back to the rules in Codex CSM.

Do we happen to know if the limited book is the only way to get the psyker cards?

 nintura wrote:

Why? We still have regular old space marines and chaos space marines who are 10,000 years old and still fighting? Age means nothing to these guys.

Dante is the oldest loyalist marine at a bit over 1100.


In any case, the stupidest way to bring back Primarchs would be to just have them appear and be just like during HH like nothing had happened. If one wants that why not just play HH?

 nintura wrote:

Rosebuddy wrote:

GoatboyBeta wrote:
As daft/improbable/kick ass(take your pick ) as Hulkbuster Gulliman sounds. It would answer the questions of how you make a non demon primarch fresh out of stasis different from his 30k model and fit in the same size/price bracket as Magnus.

I think that the best way to bring back an imperial primarch would be to have, for example Russ, come wandering out of nothingness and be just a very tired old man after thousands and thousands of years of fighting. Have him worn down, without any of his legendary equipment and missing an arm. Still pretty impressive, all things told, but ultimately just a little tougher and meaner than a chapter master. Any 40k primarch should be diminished. They'd still be a huge deal for their successors and cause massive schisms in the Imperium by simply existing but nothing you could smack down on the tabletop and totally wreck things with.

Why? We still have regular old space marines and chaos space marines who are 10,000 years old and still fighting? Age means nothing to these guys.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jackal wrote:

Which version came out first and in what year? Which version has the most novels and books? Which version has the most factions to work with? Material alone, there is enough written about the 40k universe to fill half a library.

Fantasy was released back in 83, 40k was released in 87.
So fantasy came first.

Fantasy also has more books by far.
Define factions? are we talking space marines in general or splitting all chapters?
Either way, fantasy yet again.

Doesnt matter how you cut it, fantasy came before 40k and the sheer volume of material for it is amazing.
So no, 40k does not have more "lore" to it atall.


Also, keep in mind your saying 40k, so all heresy era stuff is out aswell since that would be 30k at present.

You're telling me there's more fantasy stuff in the black library than 40k? And 30k is rolled into the 40k "universe" because it's part of the lore and fluff.

To put the fantasy 40k comparison to bed. There have been about 270 fantasy books including anthologies but not AOS or short stories. There have been more than 300 40k books following the same rules but not including the Horus heresy. Fantasy is older but in recent years there have been twice as many 40k books as fantasy books coming out. Even if we look at the last year, there were more books in the beats arises series than the main AOS series.

 Crimson wrote:

 nintura wrote:

Why? We still have regular old space marines and chaos space marines who are 10,000 years old and still fighting? Age means nothing to these guys.

Dante is the oldest loyalist marine at a bit over 1100.


In any case, the stupidest way to bring back Primarchs would be to just have them appear and be just like during HH like nothing had happened. If one wants that why not just play HH?

They want to fight against Tau, Nids, Necrons etc?

tneva82 wrote:

Spoiler:

ERJAK wrote:
Feth the current theme. It's BORING. Literally no action anyone in all the galaxy takes matters because NOTHING HAPPENS. So to correct that, they move the story forward, a snails pace to be sure, milk it for another 20 years; big universe after all. But here's the thing, the good guys are hopelessly outmatched. 6 Demon Primarchs, just as many named, powerful characters as in the whole of the imperium, and an endless legion of greater demons and former legionaires to pull even bigger bads out of. The outcome would be hilariously foregone, even to a casual reader. Why then, get invested? Why, if you've never followed the fluff before, bother trying to catch up when at the end of the day all you're doing is watching the dirt settle on the grave of the imperium. So you need heroes, big names, names that would cause as many problems as they would offer solutions but little tiny glimmers of possibility. Watching a decrepit broken down imperium finally fall would ultimately lack meaning, even for Chaos. Seeing an Imperium topple as it's greatest heroes fail, as it's final opportunity to save itself, to bring itself back from the edge, is squandered, that would be a compelling story.

Hopeless or not is up for players to fight out on the tabletop...That was always the idea in 40k. Setting for players to fight out the story. GW wasn't supposed to provide the story as that's just limiting players own imagination and stories. But guess some people need to be hand fed stories rather than do their own.

And for not mattering...AOS is prime example of not mattering when GW has designed whole new setting so that it's 100% irrelevant what happens. So yeah good job from GW. In 40k at least it's possible for one side to lose. In AOS nobody CAN lose.

So name calling and shaming when someone has a differing opinion than you eh?

 nintura wrote:

Rosebuddy wrote:

GoatboyBeta wrote:
As daft/improbable/kick ass(take your pick ) as Hulkbuster Gulliman sounds. It would answer the questions of how you make a non demon primarch fresh out of stasis different from his 30k model and fit in the same size/price bracket as Magnus.

I think that the best way to bring back an imperial primarch would be to have, for example Russ, come wandering out of nothingness and be just a very tired old man after thousands and thousands of years of fighting. Have him worn down, without any of his legendary equipment and missing an arm. Still pretty impressive, all things told, but ultimately just a little tougher and meaner than a chapter master. Any 40k primarch should be diminished. They'd still be a huge deal for their successors and cause massive schisms in the Imperium by simply existing but nothing you could smack down on the tabletop and totally wreck things with.

Why? We still have regular old space marines and chaos space marines who are 10,000 years old and still fighting? Age means nothing to these guys.

Because it flips the expectations of the returning primarch being glorious and awesome on their head. Regular space marines don't reach 10 000 without major life-extending technology like being put into a dreadnought pod and hibernating most of the time or without being actively sustained by the chaos gods and entering timeless space. It's fully appropriate for a primarch to age, particularly when it's to emphasise the themes of change and outright decline between the era of primarchs and contemporary 40K.

Souba wrote:

Franarok wrote:
Well, doesnt mention Daemonology, but that doesnt means they cant not use it. Daemonology rules says that every psi on the game can use it but GK.

If not, even with the new blue and smaller horrors split, will be a huge nerf to summoning strategy

because that rule from the BRB was to adjust 6th edition books.
every codex after the 7th edition rulebook has all psykers explicitly mentioning their access to daemonology.

Warzone Fenris 1: Curse of the Wulfen had no unit updates except new formations, armoury and psychic powers aswell as adding belakor and exhalted flamers. <-- no changes to existing units within the codex: chaos daemons
Warzone Fenris 2: Wrath of Magnus has updated rules for Pink, Blue and Brimstone Horrors, and their entrys do not mention any daemonology at all. Consider that in the same Book, Ahriman has updated rules aswell and in his entry Daemonology is written.

as such: Pink, Blue and Brimstone Horrors may not use Daemonology, since they got updated Rules. However, all other entries except horrors in the Daemon Codex still have access to them, since their rules have not been updated yet.

The current codex entry for Pink Horrors does not say they have access to Daemonology, and yet it is accepted that they can use it even without an FAQ, so why would an updated entry's lack of Daemonology be any different?
The BRB gives specific access to all psykers with few exceptions (no Malefic for GKs or Sanctic for Daemons, or at all for Nids).

Unless the new entries SPECIFICALLY say the Horrors (of any type) cannot access Malefic daemonology, they can use it. PERIOD
Or if it says they can ONLY access the Change Discipline, which we now know neither the Blue or Brimstone horrors entries are listed as such, so why would the Pinks entry be different?

Another possibility is if the Pink Horrors entry has access to Daemonology and Change (we haven't seen their entry yet, only the Blues & Brimstones)
That would make sense as otherwise, why ever buy Pinkies over Blues?

-

So you honestly think Primarchs conquered the known galaxy, which is roughly 100,000 light years across, in the span of what you think a Primarchs lifetime is? It would have taken them thousands of years to even make the travel, let alone the whole conquering part. By this alone, a primarch's life span would have to be thousands if not tens of thousands of years.

6th Ed CSM codex doesn't have Deamonology in the list of Powers Sorcerors can take.

WoM has the daemonology powers listed for the Sorcerors and Arhiman, but Horrors don't have it.

 nintura wrote:
So you honestly think Primarchs conquered the known galaxy, which is roughly 100,000 light years across, in the span of what you think a Primarchs lifetime is? It would have taken them thousands of years to even make the travel, let alone the whole conquering part. By this alone, a primarch's life span would have to be thousands if not tens of thousands of years.

What? Any galactic conquering was done during the Great Crusade era. I'm obviously talking about the myths about Russ or Khan being lost in the warp somewhere, forever fighting whatever it is they're fighting.

Rosebuddy wrote:

 nintura wrote:
So you honestly think Primarchs conquered the known galaxy, which is roughly 100,000 light years across, in the span of what you think a Primarchs lifetime is? It would have taken them thousands of years to even make the travel, let alone the whole conquering part. By this alone, a primarch's life span would have to be thousands if not tens of thousands of years.

What? Any galactic conquering was done during the Great Crusade era. I'm obviously talking about the myths about Russ or Khan being lost in the warp somewhere, forever fighting whatever it is they're fighting.

Right. You were talking about them coming back as old men after thousands of years. But we have evidence that regular space marines can live that long (CSM's have been fighting for 10k, and I'm not talking about time dilation or anything that crazy). The Primarchs themselves had to have been fighting for thousands of years during the Crusade era. Unless they were nearing old age at the end of the heresy, I couldn't see them as old and shriveled marines. Certainly not Vulkan, but he's his own special case.