Alien Covenant - movie discussion starts pg 10

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**Ahtman**

Jehan-reznor wrote:
How many times are they going to the same planet and getting wiped out before they start to think that going to that planet is a bad idea?

This isn't the same planet as Alien/Aliens or Prometheus.

**AegisGrimm**

Then I'm wondering how bad of pilots the Engineers really were, as they seem to have crashed ships all over the cosmos, each one with a hold full of facehugger eggs.

**Dark Apostle 666**

Evidently the engineers put all their funding into biological weapons research rather than effective space travel

**Kanluwen**

AegisGrimm wrote:
Then I'm wondering how bad of pilots the Engineers really were, as they seem to have crashed ships all over the cosmos, each one with a hold full of facehugger eggs.

Unless that's the plan.

Terminally ill Engineers--or Engineers already exposed to facehuggers--pilot the ships, badly, into planets that are habitable...and voila. Instant death trap for future generations!

**Alpharius**

Do we know why the Engineers are doing this?

We think they 'seeded' life on Earth, right?

But then they're setting up death traps for future explorers - presumably some of which will come form planets that they themselves seeded?!?

**Kanluwen**

My own pet theory is that the Engineers were jerks and that this is their version of Punk'd.

**Nostromodamus**

Alpharius wrote:
Do we know why the Engineers are doing this?

We think they 'seeded' life on Earth, right?

But then they're setting up death traps for future explorers - presumably some of which will come form planets that they themselves seeded?!?

I've read various things to the effect of Engineers weren't happy with how life on earth was developing so they sent a "bomber" ship full of Alien eggs to wipe us out (they use Xenomorphs as a bio-weapon). However, the pilot got hugged and the ship crashed, that's where the ship on LV-426 comes from at least.

**Manchu**

The crash site was on LV-426. An engineer ship did crash on LV-223 but only because the Prometheus rammed it. Presumably, the ship in the Alien Covenant trailer is the one Shaw and David used to escape LV-223.

As for the motives of the engineers, we have three clues: (1) the seemingly religious "ritual" on Earth at the beginning of Prometheus; (2) the ancient star maps on earth; and (3) the disgust/violence registered by the awakened engineer. We can't really even rely on (2) because we don't actually know if the engineers are responsible for them. If they are, I guess there could be various factions of them ... one group who wanted to create a sentient, starfaring race ... and another who would view that race (i.e., us) much the same way we ourselves view the xenomorphs. Or maybe they just changed their minds afterwards, maybe because of whatever happened to the station on LV-223. The main theme of Prometheus seems to be dysfunctional relationships between parents and children.

And it looks like something even worse happened to the engineers on the planet Shaw and David tracked down, which is where Covenant takes place. Is it another case of them finding a dead colony ... or are they somehow responsible?

@Nostromodamus

The old bioweapon payload bomber goes back decades. It's referenced in Prometheus by Shaw, who tells Janek that the awakened engineer is taking the black liquid to seriously eff up earth. IIRC her conclusion is based on a course plotted to earth and the awakened engineer's severe grumpiness. But in truth who knows what the engineer was up to or what any of it was actually about. Did they make xenomorphs? We can't tell from Prometheus. And it doesn't look like the dead engineers in Covenant were killed by xenomorphs - and yet we know there are xenomorphs on that planet. Maybe it's David's doing?

**Alpharius**

It is all so confusing!

Maybe the writers themselves don't even know - ala "Lost" (a great name for that series, for many reasons!).

**Nostromodamus**

Alpharius wrote:
It is all so confusing!

Maybe the writers themselves don't even know - ala "Lost" (a great name for that series, for many reasons!).

Well there have been many fingers in the Alien pie and not all seem to have been interested in continuity...

**Alpharius**

I'm sure 'we' already "knew" this back when Prometheus launched, but this thread had me asking questions, so:

http://www.ifc.com/2012/06/prometheus-sequel-ridley-scott

In the week leading up to the release of “Prometheus,” we went into crunch mode. The film’s world premiere and junket had just occurred in London and news outlets were posting their interviews with the stars and crew, but we didn’t want to be spoiled for the mystery-heavy movie. So we ignored most of the stories that came out about the future of Ridley Scott‘s new sci-fi franchise and decided to wait until after the film was released.

Well, “Prometheus” is now out in theaters, the mystery has been revealed, and we’ve learned that the flick has a very sequel-friendly ending. That means that it’s time to go back to all those previously released interviews and find out what Scott and writer Damon Lindelof have in store for us in the future. Collider did most of the heavy lifting for us, compiling quotes from interviews posted on The Hollywood Reporter, Movies.com, and Collider themselves.

“From the very beginning, I was working from a premise that lent itself to a sequel. I really don’t want to meet God in the first one. I want to leave it open to [Noomi Rapace’s character, Dr. Elizabeth Shaw] saying, ‘I don’t want to go back to where I came from. I want to go where they came from,'” Scott told Movies.com.

But Lindelof was always aware that this set-up would have some backlash. “Ridley was very interested in talking about, ‘What are the answers to the questions that Prometheus is posing that are not necessarily definitively spelled out in the body of Prometheus?’ I said to him, we should be prepared for people to feel frustrated if we’re going to be withholding, so we have to be very careful about what we’re saving for later because it’s not a foregone conclusion that there are going to be sequels, and so if there isn’t a sequel, just be comfortable with what we gave them in this movie,” he told THR.

“Prometheus” has gotten a lot of flack for talking about The Big Questions but never actually asking them. But one of the biggest cliffhangers left at the end of the flick is the explanation of why the Engineers wanted to wipe out mankind to begin with. If we read into some of Scott’s comments, that answer could be because humans killed Jesus Christ.

“If you look at it as an ‘our children are misbehaving down there’ scenario, there are moments where it looks like we’ve gone out of control, running around with armor and skirts, which of course would be the Roman Empire. And they were given a long run. A thousand years before their disintegration actually started to happen. And you can say, ‘Lets’ send down one more of our emissaries to see if he can stop it. Guess what? They crucified him,'” Scott told Movies.com.

That Christ assumption is doubly confirmed by the fact that the Prometheus crew determined the Engineers decided to destroy earth about two millennia ago, or around the time Christ was crucified. If we’re to read even more into Scott’s comments, he could be saying that Christ (in his world) was actually an emissary of the Engineers.

Apparently the potential sequel to “Prometheus” could be called “Paradise,” a title that was toyed with for Scott’s planned “Alien” prequel. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that the Engineers’ home planet is going to be heaven on Earth when Elizabeth Shaw finds it.

“I’d love to explore where the hell [Dr. Shaw] goes next and what does she do when she gets there, because if it is paradise, paradise can not be what you think it is,” Scott told Movies.com. “Paradise has a connotation of being extremely sinister and ominous.”

**BobtheInquisitor**

So, offensive to Christians and tedious for non-Christians? Sounds like a winner.

**Mr Morden**

Alpharius wrote:
It is all so confusing!

Maybe the writers themselves don't even know - ala "Lost" (a great name for that series, for many reasons!).

I think thats very accurate - Prometheus is a complete and absolute mess - it mostly looks great - hey its Ridley Scott but it lurches blindly from one massive plot hole to another like the dismal characterisation and as you watch it you are constatly going

" What , Why are they doing that?"
"Thats insane why would anyone.........."
"Seriously you are gopign to bend down and stick your face next to a wierd alien snake creature."
"Stop running forwards and go left you dumb B"

**welshhoppo**

I remember the whole Jesus was an engineer plot, I'm glad they dropped it.

**Ahtman**

Of course it has similar problems as Lost the studio brought the writer of it in to alter the good script from someone they didn't know and his big ideas for change were to remove the xenomorph and raise questions with no answers. If you watch the special features on the Bluray you can pinpoint when the project went downhill and it is when he is brought out. It isn't always that simple to see when a project is going off the rails but in this case it is actually pretty easy to spot.

Also this seems appropriate: Literary Study Finds All Modern Narratives Derived From Classic ‘Alien Vs. Predator’ Conflict

**Alpharius**

welshhoppo wrote:
I remember the whole Jesus was an engineer plot, I'm glad they dropped it.

Well, they dropped it in an official/obvious sense, but apparently that's still Ridley's thinking!

**Ahtman**

I was ok with the idea as it would have at least given the story a perspective and made sense for the world created. It wouldn't have been for all tastes but then neither is the franchise.

**gorgon**

Ahtman wrote:
Of course it has similar problems as Lost the studio brought the writer of it in to alter the good script from someone they didn't know and his big ideas for change were to remove the xenomorph and raise questions with no answers. If you watch the special features on the Bluray you can pinpoint when the project went downhill and it is when he is brought out. It isn't always that simple to see when a project is going off the rails but in this case it is actually pretty easy to spot.

Yeah, Prometheus looks worse when you read the original Alien: Engineers script. It reveals where certain confusing elements of Prometheus came from, but leaves you more confused as to why the heck they kept them when they changed everything else around them in the transition from an Alien movie to Prometheus. It's kind of bizarre, really.

I haven't watched the special features, so I dunno if they shed any light into what the heck they were thinking.

**Alpharius**

So what does the original Alien: Engineers script have to say about all of that?

**Manchu**

Real movies inherently cannot measure up to "the movie we didn't get" - which exists only in our imaginations, usually as a conceptualization of our dissatisfaction with the actual film. The script was almost certainly stronger in some ways prior to Lindelof's revisions. But the project had deeper problems. First and foremost, I don't think Sir Ridley ever had any real interest in doing another Alien picture. He has very clearly declared that the xenomorph lost all of its horror and has become just another pop culture icon. Thematically, Prometheus has nothing whatsoever to do with Alien and I think it is a mistake to try to read them onto one another. The space jockey has no greater relevance than set dressing in Alien. I don't think it's a coincidence that the exact same thing holds true of the xenomorph in Prometheus. To me, Alien Covenant seems like the product of a cynical compromise: Sir Ridley gets to continue indulging his pretentious, boring obsession with "Chariots of the Gods" and the studio gets to market a shiny product with emphatically clear shots of the classic xenomorph.

**GoatboyBeta**

Alpharius wrote:
Do we know why the Engineers are doing this?

We think they 'seeded' life on Earth, right?

But then they're setting up death traps for future explorers - presumably some of which will come form planets that they themselves seeded?!?

Could be that they were intending to "harvest" life on Earth for use in there black goo project. Seeding Earth and letting the resulting lifeforms mature to a certain level is phase one. Introducing the goo into the biosphere is phase two. The Xenomorphs could have been the desired end result all along, or possibly a unintended and deadly side effect of there research into the goo's effects.

Damn it, this thread is gonna make me watch Prometheus again

**Ensis Ferrae**

Manchu wrote:
To me, Alien Covenant seems like the product of a cynical compromise: Sir Ridley gets to continue indulging his pretentious, boring obsession with "Chariots of the Gods" and the studio gets to market a shiny product with emphatically clear shots of the classic xenomorph.

For some reason, this comment made me think that perhaps Ridley Scott is a Scientologist... so I went to google and..... There's nothing for, nor against it. Though I suspect that if he were a Scientologist, he would've told everyone, like Tom Cruise did, or like ever vegan and crossfitter out there.

**Manchu**

Hard to square the engineers intending to brew xenomorphs on Earth with the star map angle. They may have dropped the Jesus thing but the star maps had to stay in so the story could begin. I guess they could retcon it so that David travels back in time to leave the star map in all these ancient human cultures. And the engineers take over earth via an AI program called Skynet that sends back a cybernetic xenomorph to stop him.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ensis Ferrae wrote:
this comment made me think that perhaps Ridley Scott is a Scientologist...

Plenty of people who aren't scientologists are fascinated by the idea that human life is the product of alien manipulation.

**Ahtman**

Manchu wrote:
Real movies inherently cannot measure up to "the movie we didn't get" - which exists only in our imaginations, usually as a conceptualization of our dissatisfaction with the actual film. The script was almost certainly stronger in some ways prior to Lindelof's revisions. But the project had deeper problems. First and foremost, I don't think Sir Ridley ever had any real interest in doing another Alien picture. He has very clearly declared that the xenomorph lost all of its horror and has become just another pop culture icon. Thematically, Prometheus has nothing whatsoever to do with Alien and I think it is a mistake to try to read them onto one another. The space jockey has no greater relevance than set dressing in Alien. I don't think it's a coincidence that the exact same thing holds true of the xenomorph in Prometheus. To me, Alien Covenant seems like the product of a cynical compromise: Sir Ridley gets to continue indulging his pretentious, boring obsession with "Chariots of the Gods" and the studio gets to market a shiny product with emphatically clear shots of the classic xenomorph.

While I don't agree with everything in this terrible, world destroying post*, there is some truth to it. I don't mean to put all the blame on Lindelof, but his is the moment you can see the wheels, which were wobbling, completely come off. The original script isn't 'almost certainly stronger' it was absolutely stronger. In the end though Lindelof's awful contributions wouldn't matter if Ridley weren't more than happy to derail the project into something crappy. I think Prometheus generates as much unhappiness as it does, unlike movies that are just flat out bad, is due to it having lots of promise and the potential to be great. Instead was just really well shot and pretty. It is a good example of how things behind the camera can screw up a movie just as much as what is in front of it, if not more.

*

**Manchu**

Yeah, Prometheus really is worse than merely being bad ... because it is in fact pretty good in many ways. Shaw is a very engaging, well-drawn character. The production values are amazing. Most importantly, it's a very ambitious story. Butthere's the rub: it completely fails to live up to that ambition and the DVD special features didn't convince me that the pre-Lindelof script was any better on that score. Yes, the film would have been better without the whole "smart people being dumb" stuff - no question. But that doesn't address the ultimate disappointment of the movie, either.

I think this is an industry thing, btw. You see it in The Force Awakens, too. "We want to do X but we can't start with X" because of course the studio wants three pictures, not just one. So in TFA, our protagonist squeaks by on the actress's charm because Disney doesn't want to give away her backstory. Um, she's the protagonist, she needs a backstory! So we get an incomplete story instead - that's the same thing with Prometheus. The whole movie was a prologue to the movie I was hoping to see.

Now, will Covenant be that film?

Spoiler:

**Pacific**

Agree Ahtman, think Prometheus was definitely one of those 'what might have been' films.

In terms of 'space Jesus', might not it just have been the Engineers watching how Jesus progressed, and the manner of his death marking the end of hope for humankind, rather than him actually being an Engineer himself?

Although I do think it was quite obvious that the awakened Engineer was quite obviously heading to Earth to finish what they had planned to do. Don't think he was heading there to deliver a Christmas card!

Manchu wrote:
The space jockey has no greater relevance than set dressing in Alien.

Sorry to just cut a little bit of your post here, but your comment brought to mind that part of the film. Have to say for me the Space Jockey was one of the coolest bits of Alien.

Added such a sense of mystery and power to the story, it put the hackles up on my neck when I first saw the film and I remember thinking about it for weeks afterwards.

Sadly the un-weaving of the rainbow (in terms of finding out about the engineers) lessens the impact of that film somewhat.

**Thargrim**

Manchu wrote:
Yeah, Prometheus really is worse than merely being bad ... because it is in fact pretty good in many ways. Shaw is a very engaging, well-drawn character. The production values are amazing. Most importantly, it's a very ambitious story. Butthere's the rub: it completely fails to live up to that ambition and the DVD special features didn't convince me that the pre-Lindelof script was any better on that score. Yes, the film would have been better without the whole "smart people being dumb" stuff - no question. But that doesn't address the ultimate disappointment of the movie, either.

I think this is an industry thing, btw. You see it in The Force Awakens, too. "We want to do X but we can't start with X" because of course the studio wants three pictures, not just one. So in TFA, our protagonist squeaks by on the actress's charm because Disney doesn't want to give away her backstory. Um, she's the protagonist, she needs a backstory! So we get an incomplete story instead - that's the same thing with Prometheus. The whole movie was a prologue to the movie I was hoping to see.

Now, will Covenant be that film?

Spoiler:

The thing about having multiple films is that you get a protagonist who gets developed and fleshed out, whereas in this case Shaw is more or less dead before the film begins. As I said before, its not too different from how Newt and Hicks died at the intro of Alien 3. Shaw still had great potential for character development and was a good protagonist. However having her live might not be dark enough to fit the tone of the series so i'm kind of torn about it. Rey and Finn still have the chance at becoming good characters, Shaw is not going to get the same opportunity as Ripley to become something iconic either. If I was Rapace i'd be annoyed they decided to kill my character off screen. Now I admit I haven't seen the movie but based on what i've read and seen I feel very comfortable saying she has no presence in the movie aside from being mentioned.

**Ahtman**

I thought I read it here but I don't see it so it must of been elsewhere but Ridley (I believe it was from an interview with the director) stated that the xenomorphs were not from or created by the Engineers. This was a recent quote not something from Prometheus or earlier.

**Ensis Ferrae**

Ahtman wrote:
I thought I read it here but I don't see it so it must of been elsewhere but Ridley (I believe it was from an interview with the director) stated that the xenomorphs were not from or created by the Engineers. This was a recent quote not something from Prometheus or earlier.

That is an interesting idea... like, would they have been the first/only people to semi-contain the xenomorphs (afterall, they had ship(s) full of xenomorph material)??

**Jehan-reznor**

Ahtman wrote:
I thought I read it here but I don't see it so it must of been elsewhere but Ridley (I believe it was from an interview with the director) stated that the xenomorphs were not from or created by the Engineers. This was a recent quote not something from Prometheus or earlier.

Well in Prometheus we see that the "xenomorphs" are created from us!