The Forgeworld 2017 News & Rumors Thread

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**Iron Angel**

I feel like they gave those wolves two pairs of hindlegs each.. the Kabuki ones are way better.

**SeanDrake**

Iron Angel wrote:
I feel like they gave those wolves two pairs of hindlegs each.. the Kabuki ones are way better.

I have to agree and tbh the Kabuki Russ looks a lot better as well.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

No Heretics.

Only boops pls.

**Lord Kragan**

Yeah... I'm not a great fan of kabuki's models by and large but I've gotta say their russ is gorgeous (unlike the NOT!Custodes or NOT!Alpharius)

**Haighus**

The Kabuki model does look great... but it doesn't look like Russ. It is a great space roman general with viking iconography, but Russ should be a space viking chieftain.

Vermis wrote:
warboss wrote:Something feels off about those wolf sculpts in their proportions and poses. I can't quite put my finger on it...

I can. It's because they bear little relation to actual wolves in their proportions. The limbs might be thicker to look like they carry the weight of huge wolves, but if that's the case it ain't working. There are big animals with legs that don't look anywhere near as clunky - look at moose, or giraffes, or carthorses. The legs on these sculpts are just... flabby sausages, with vague lines along the thighs to say 'there are muscles here, no really' and a slight kink at the hock. There are vague bulges along the shins, which might be there to represent extra superheroish muscularity, but wolf legs don't work like that. I get what Haighus is saying about bear legs, but they're an insult even to bears! Sorry to say, but the legs - especially the forelegs - of the new AoS hippogryph are closer to wolf legs than these things. It's that bad.
The paws are nothing like wolf paws, and not especially convincing as the hands of super-soldiers transformed into wolf monsters, if that's what Freki and Geri were. (I haven't kept up with the details of HH fluff.) I'm looking at the curled-up paw of the grey wolf and I think 'what'. If I'm pushed, I'd say they look more like puffy duck feet with a kink in the toes. But actually, they're the same kind of lazy representation of a paw that's been put on WHFB wolves (and things like the mordheim bear and high elf lions) for decades.

The pose of the legs - and the whole of the bodies - are stiff, and dull. So duuullllll. I almost fell asleep looking at them. It's quite an achievement when your subjects are giant wolves leaping at enemies in battle. The forelegs are supposed to be clawing at the 1k Sons and the hindlegs are stepping forward, maybe even leaping. But there's absolutely no tension or stretching to indicate that. Maybe not entirely surprising since there seems to be no real muscle modelled on these figures; but the forelegs just seem to be pointing at the 1K Sons (no bending or splaying of the toes to indicate the marines are being raked by the claws) and the hindlegs are... just there. Like I say, no flexing or stretching. Both hindpaws solidly planted on the base. No dynamism.

The face. Glossing over the 'angry eyes', the expression of the snarling faces are vacant. Dead. Like grecian masks or something. Part of this is because, while I can see lines in the face of the brown wolf, facial muscles - like leg muscles - are more than just 'lines', and need a bit more attention than that. Especially if you're charging seventy bleedin' quid for it. Do an image search for snarling wolves and see how much the muzzle and lips can (or should) be lifted and bunched. In particular, the corners of the mouths of these sculpts slope and droop way down, more than they should for a tensed, snarling expression. Compare the mouths - and the whole face - to these photos. Might be subtle, in the eyes of some, but it's there.
What's worse is, those photos make it plain that the teeth of the sculpts follow the line of those droopy mouths. The teeth line the lips, not the jaws of the skull!
And the tongues are sticking out. Look at that first wolf photo again. It's another giveaway of something...

The other part is that both wolf faces have that same jaws-open-to-the-uttermost-extent look, despite being in relatively different poses and presumably at different points in the 'jump and savage' cycle. It's like the 'always roaring' trope that gets complained about in dinosaur art. It contributes a lot to the dead mask effect, IMO.

So. Unnatural flabbiness in place of muscle, skin and other anatomy. Dull poses. Decades-old, unrealistic GW tropes. Droopy mouths despite extreme-gape snarls, plus wonky teeth and a waggly tongue. Well, they're not reptiles, but I still smell Carden. Possibly Morrison, but more likely Carden.

I agree with this. The thing about some of the differences being subtle, is that they all add up to the whole thing looking off. Subtle is important, it is the same reason that people who have had too much plastic surgery look off.

**Ketara**

Haighus wrote:
The Kabuki model does look great... but it doesn't look like Russ. It is a great space roman general with viking iconography, but Russ should be a space viking chieftain.

There's alternative components actually if you do want a more bare headed viking look.

They're down to the last couple of the run for Russ though, so they won't be available much longer. I snapped mine up a few days back. Pricey but I feel it'll be resellable in a few years if I never get around to painting it, on account of the fact that it's actually a better sculpt than the FW one!

Most of Kabuki's Knights aren't that great, but alongside the Russ I always thought their Corax gave the FW one a run for their money.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Anyone complaining that they don't look exactly like Wolves is missing the point in that they're not actually Wolves to begin with.
Anyone seen that cover of Prospero Burns? Definitely not Wolves.

**Rayvon**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Anyone complaining that they don't look exactly like Wolves is missing the point in that they're not actually Wolves to begin with.
Anyone seen that cover of Prospero Burns? Definitely not Wolves.

Yes, the Kabuki ones look more like normal wolves proportion wise, but I never imagined Russ to run with two normal wolves myself.

I was beginning to think I was the only one that thought this way !

**Elbows**

The Kabuki ones have metal exo-skeletons sticking out...not too much like normal wolves. I pretty much hate all of the GW current Space Wolf aesthetic though, so I've no real dog in the fight.

**Alpharius**

Elbows wrote:
The Kabuki ones have metal exo-skeletons sticking out...not too much like normal wolves. I pretty much hate all of the GW current Space Wolf aesthetic though, so I've no real dog in the fight.

...but do you have a...

...wolf in the fight?!?

Couldn't resist - sorry!

I like FW's Russ, I love Kabuki's Russ and I don't really mind either set of 'wolves'.

Still, it is the Hydra and the Raven for me!

**Azreal13**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Anyone complaining that they don't look exactly like Wolves is missing the point in that they're not actually Wolves to begin with.
Anyone seen that cover of Prospero Burns? Definitely not Wolves.

As I'll point out any time this point is used, the "factual" justifications are irrelevant if it looks wrong to the eye. You're quite right, these aren't Canis Lupus, they're Canis Fenris, and they're almost certainly unusual physical specimens of those.

However, if the net result of the sculpt is they look like "off" wolves then none of it matters.

**Rayvon**

Besides,

There are no wolves on Fenris !

**Lord Kragan**

Rayvon wrote:
Besides,

There are no wolves on Fenris !

Certainly not since there's been a great calamity therel. The world's population of that planet has been reduced to a thousand individuals.

**Vermis**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Anyone complaining that they don't look exactly like Wolves is missing the point in that they're not actually Wolves to begin with.
Anyone seen that cover of Prospero Burns? Definitely not Wolves.

One - you didn't read my post. I know it's a bit long, but still.

Two - this:

Azreal13 wrote:As I'll point out any time this point is used, the "factual" justifications are irrelevant if it looks wrong to the eye. You're quite right, these aren't Canis Lupus, they're Canis Fenris, and they're almost certainly unusual physical specimens of those.

However, if the net result of the sculpt is they look like "off" wolves then none of it matters.

It's an old excuse for sub-par fantasy/sci-fi sculpting. It's not that they're not real, let alone real wolves, but that they don't look like organic, naturally moving creatures.
References for something wolf-like (i.e. wolves) isn't hidden away, or mythical, or difficult to make use of. Look at Gamezone's wolf riders, for example. Even GW's thunderwolves and fenrisian wolves - the same kind of 'not real wolves' - manage to look better than these FW models. If you want to emphasise their weird human origin, like the faces on the cover of Prospero Burns (which is all we can see of them, and not entirely relevant to current complaints) then DnD's barghests or Reaper's goblin wolves show a route. (I don't think the Reaper minis are particularly well sculpted either, but they show a concept for not-wolves other than 'don't care') Even the man-eating sheep from the LotR movies are obviously not wolves, but manage to look like real creatures.

**Lord Kragan**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Anyone complaining that they don't look exactly like Wolves is missing the point in that they're not actually Wolves to begin with.
Anyone seen that cover of Prospero Burns? Definitely not Wolves.

I'm going to say you're being pedantinc in this matter, considering they are Fenrisian Wolves.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Lord Kragan wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Anyone complaining that they don't look exactly like Wolves is missing the point in that they're not actually Wolves to begin with.
Anyone seen that cover of Prospero Burns? Definitely not Wolves.

I'm going to say you're being pedantinc in this matter, considering they are Fenrisian Wolves.

They aren't Wolves though. They're alien lifeforms that are reminiscent of Wolves. Huge difference.

**Carnikang**

By the standards of large quadrupeds, they look like donkey butt.

Some people like them and will buy it because of what they see in the two.

Others will dislike the details missing and the chunky look of something that is supposed to be the sci-fi equivalent of Mega-werewolves.

Can we just leave it at that?

**H.B.M.C.**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
They aren't Wolves though. They're alien lifeforms that are reminiscent of Wolves. Huge difference.

Y'all just gonna ignore Az's post where he cleanly explained why that excuse doesn't hold up?

**warboss**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

They aren't Wolves though. They're alien lifeforms that are reminiscent of Wolves. Huge difference.

That's what they are in the more recent BL fluff... but those models are simply just badly sculpted and posed supersized wolves. If you want a look at alien lifeforms that are reminiscent of wolves, take a look at Infinity's Antipodes (namely the middle one in this pic).

The FW don't even look like the BL cover ones and are different for all the wrong/worse reasons from actual wolves. No, sorry, those models are just plain badly sculpted (for FW) wolves.

**warboss**

Vermis wrote:

Spoiler:

I can. It's because they bear little relation to actual wolves in their proportions. The limbs might be thicker to look like they carry the weight of huge wolves, but if that's the case it ain't working. There are big animals with legs that don't look anywhere near as clunky - look at moose, or giraffes, or carthorses. The legs on these sculpts are just... flabby sausages, with vague lines along the thighs to say 'there are muscles here, no really' and a slight kink at the hock. There are vague bulges along the shins, which might be there to represent extra superheroish muscularity, but wolf legs don't work like that. I get what Haighus is saying about bear legs, but they're an insult even to bears! Sorry to say, but the legs - especially the forelegs - of the new AoS hippogryph are closer to wolf legs than these things. It's that bad.
The paws are nothing like wolf paws, and not especially convincing as the hands of super-soldiers transformed into wolf monsters, if that's what Freki and Geri were. (I haven't kept up with the details of HH fluff.) I'm looking at the curled-up paw of the grey wolf and I think 'what'. If I'm pushed, I'd say they look more like puffy duck feet with a kink in the toes. But actually, they're the same kind of lazy representation of a paw that's been put on WHFB wolves (and things like the mordheim bear and high elf lions) for decades.

The pose of the legs - and the whole of the bodies - are stiff, and dull. So duuullllll. I almost fell asleep looking at them. It's quite an achievement when your subjects are giant wolves leaping at enemies in battle. The forelegs are supposed to be clawing at the 1k Sons and the hindlegs are stepping forward, maybe even leaping. But there's absolutely no tension or stretching to indicate that. Maybe not entirely surprising since there seems to be no real muscle modelled on these figures; but the forelegs just seem to be pointing at the 1K Sons (no bending or splaying of the toes to indicate the marines are being raked by the claws) and the hindlegs are... just there. Like I say, no flexing or stretching. Both hindpaws solidly planted on the base. No dynamism.

The face. Glossing over the 'angry eyes', the expression of the snarling faces are vacant. Dead. Like grecian masks or something. Part of this is because, while I can see lines in the face of the brown wolf, facial muscles - like leg muscles - are more than just 'lines', and need a bit more attention than that. Especially if you're charging seventy bleedin' quid for it. Do an image search for snarling wolves and see how much the muzzle and lips can (or should) be lifted and bunched. In particular, the corners of the mouths of these sculpts slope and droop way down, more than they should for a tensed, snarling expression. Compare the mouths - and the whole face - to these photos. Might be subtle, in the eyes of some, but it's there.
What's worse is, those photos make it plain that the teeth of the sculpts follow the line of those droopy mouths. The teeth line the lips, not the jaws of the skull!
And the tongues are sticking out. Look at that first wolf photo again. It's another giveaway of something...

The other part is that both wolf faces have that same jaws-open-to-the-uttermost-extent look, despite being in relatively different poses and presumably at different points in the 'jump and savage' cycle. It's like the 'always roaring' trope that gets complained about in dinosaur art. It contributes a lot to the dead mask effect, IMO.

So. Unnatural flabbiness in place of muscle, skin and other anatomy. Dull poses. Decades-old, unrealistic GW tropes. Droopy mouths despite extreme-gape snarls, plus wonky teeth and a waggly tongue. Well, they're not reptiles, but I still smell Carden. Possibly Morrison, but more likely Carden.

Thanks for the detailed rundown and for putting into words most of my vague hard to explain issues with the models.

Ketara wrote:
Seconded. I think I actually prefer Kabuki's take on Russ and his wolves.

Spoiler:

I do like both that Russ and his wolves (and the wolves more than the official ones). Russ himself is a bit too technobarbarian for me personally (he feels more like an artic thunderwarrior than a primarch to me) but that just could be the lack of a proper ranged weapon. I'd still be leaning towards the official Russ by a bit though (moreso if the FW Russ' fur cape flowed a bit better than it does.. it's almost as stiff as a second edition Space Marine metal captain's cape)

**Eldarain**

Thank you for the link to that Russ from Kabuki. I quite like that.

Also does anyone know when the Iron Hills Goat cavalry is going to hit the webstore?

**ImAGeek**

I like the wolf that's got its head down growling at the downed marine. The other one looks really off.

**commander dante**

Perhaps Combining Kabuki Russ with FW Russ' Head?
Its his Head that gives off the "Barbarian-Viking-Chieftan" Stereotype

**Haighus**

commander dante wrote:
Perhaps Combining Kabuki Russ with FW Russ' Head?
Its his Head that gives off the "Barbarian-Viking-Chieftan" Stereotype

The armour is very reminiscent of a legionary for me too, not just the helmet. Looks like a nord officer in the Imperial legion in Skrim or something. Even with the bare head I still feel it makes a better Thunder warrior than a Russ.

**Iron Angel**

If I want to nitpick, the biggest thing that bugs me with the Kabuki Russ is the unprotected arms.

**sturguard**

Isnt Inferno supposed to drop in a few days- and we have zero actual rumors on the Space Wolves and 1K Sons army rules? Or is this a sign they are going to push it back yet again?

**Erren**

Forge World rules typically don't leak until someone gets it in their hands legitimately. There might be sales on Friday, but I'd be surprised to see anything before then. Most likely is probably Saturday morning. And even then the people with the book will be busy at the Weekender, so the leaks might be limited until Saturday evening.

**Vermis**

Ketara wrote:
Seconded. I think I actually prefer Kabuki's take on Russ and his wolves.

Spoiler:

Blimey, didn't even realise you posted pics. They didn't show up at all for me. I can only see them by quoting and sticking https on the front of the url. From the comments, I take it no-one else has this problem?

Anyways... yes. They look better. Thighs are a bit long maybe, but then that's another way you could imply a human origin.

**Yodhrin**

Haighus wrote:
commander dante wrote:
Perhaps Combining Kabuki Russ with FW Russ' Head?
Its his Head that gives off the "Barbarian-Viking-Chieftan" Stereotype

The armour is very reminiscent of a legionary for me too, not just the helmet. Looks like a nord officer in the Imperial legion in Skrim or something. Even with the bare head I still feel it makes a better Thunder warrior than a Russ.

Personally that's why I love the Kabuki one, it looks like a mashup between MK4 power armour and one of the Nord sets from Skyrim. The FW Russ has always been a bit meh for me, not because it's bad but just because there are lots of teeny little niggles I have with it personally that make it hard to justify the price(the face looks more like he's having a really unpleasant bathroom experience than snarling IMO, the cape is a bit stiff even accounting for the pose, and the pose itself almost has too much "motion" in it - I can see what they were going for, but feet, knees, torso, head, and arms all at different angles just looks odd to me), so thanks for the link & pics to that Ketara, I'd never have noticed that in time to get the helmeted version if you'd not brought him up

(as a cheeky aside, I actually don't particularly care for the Kabuki wolves and will probably use a couple of Thunderwolves for mine, so if anyone wants to buy the Kabuki ones off me when mine arrives shoot me a PM)

**SagesStone**

I think Russ looks better at different angles. At first this kind of makes it look like he's rollerskating.

However, bring it down a bit and its much better.