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I still find it encouraging that he made TG work in a tournament, while we just said 2 pages ago that they are garbage.

I might move my hive guard to be in my malanthrope detachment... seems like a solid protection for them. Losing out on rerolling 1's is pretty harsh though.

A little surprised to see GSC stealers. Much more expensive than their cousins. Cult ambush arguably is less reliable than kraken stealers charging up.

There's a questionable decision on every second line of that list.

weaver9 wrote:
I might move my hive guard to be in my malanthrope detachment... seems like a solid protection for them. Losing out on rerolling 1's is pretty harsh though.

A little surprised to see GSC stealers. Much more expensive than their cousins. Cult ambush arguably is less reliable than kraken stealers charging up.

Its more about off table protection, they are guaranteed to not be shot, and on turn 2 they can DS/Charge with a ok chance in doing so, you re-roll the table, but you also give the PSGS +1 to hit. Its still risky sure, but it might be worth the risk.

Out of the last ~ 15 competitive games I’ve played with tyranids, I can say without exception that every single game I lost except 1 was the result of my genestealers being alpha struck off the board. GSC becoming a real codex means very very good things for tyranids competitively. Especially because hive tyrants/neurothropes/hive guard/rippers are still a thing, so you still have a lot of ways to supplement the weaknesses of GSC.

I think Purestrains are really good. Neophytes are really good too with the Primus buff and Might, and are so much cheaper too.

If any of the GSC leaks are true they look like it's gonna be a good dex, VERY AGGRESSIVE and lots of interaction, which is awesome

So if I'm not mistaken best way to deliver purestrains is with a primus, using the stratagem, and hope for a 6. Are you allowed to advance with the free move?

weaver9 wrote:
So if I'm not mistaken best way to deliver purestrains is with a primus, using the stratagem, and hope for a 6. Are you allowed to advance with the free move?

Both 5 and 6 on the cult ambush table is usually good enough to have a decent chance on making one charge. The 6 obviously makes it easier to pull off complex mulitcharges, wrappings etc.

No, I believe you can't advance with the free move.

Mellon wrote:

weaver9 wrote:
So if I'm not mistaken best way to deliver purestrains is with a primus, using the stratagem, and hope for a 6. Are you allowed to advance with the free move?

Both 5 and 6 on the cult ambush table is usually good enough to have a decent chance on making one charge. The 6 obviously makes it easier to pull off complex mulitcharges, wrappings etc.

No, I believe you can't advance with the free move.

A 6 on the cult ambush table allows the unit to move normally. Moving normally includes being allowed to advance.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Man I wish the wise ITC orginization at FLG could do some detailed analysis on the WR of factions. It is quite literally impossible to get a clear picture. Then again - they are playing a house ruled game and the results matter even less in terms of balance.

Nids are absolutely a strong army. They compete in every phase (movement, psychic, shooting, assault) and they are immune to leadership for the most part. Have shoot twice and fight twice stratagems. Some very efficient choices(carnifex, FHT, HG, neuro). What their weakness? Knights. What is a really popular meta choice right now (and probably OP). Knights.

All I know for my purposes - If a friend of mine asks me to bring a light army. That rules out Tyranids/eldar/DE/knights/tau. It means I should play GK or space marines without guilliman.

The best I have seen is this channel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aW-XrhPFFPY

 SHUPPET wrote:
There's a questionable decision on every second line of that list.

Yeah - he might have had reasons that aren't clear to us but we can reasonably say this isn't the way you would construct this list to be as efficient as possible. Not without knowing further details about the event.

Sneggy wrote:

Mellon wrote:

weaver9 wrote:
So if I'm not mistaken best way to deliver purestrains is with a primus, using the stratagem, and hope for a 6. Are you allowed to advance with the free move?

Both 5 and 6 on the cult ambush table is usually good enough to have a decent chance on making one charge. The 6 obviously makes it easier to pull off complex mulitcharges, wrappings etc.

No, I believe you can't advance with the free move.

A 6 on the cult ambush table allows the unit to move normally. Moving normally includes being allowed to advance.

100% the reason I took a unit of Purestrain was so that a unit did not get shot off the board first turn. Using the strategem rolling for a 5/6 was all I was looking for. Buffing the unit with Might Beyond to give the unit 70 attacks hitting on twos at Strength 5 at -1 AP is gnarly no matter what way you look at it. Other magus casts Mass Hypnosis on the unit that has the most overwatch to make sure they don't shoot.

Xenomancers wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
There's a questionable decision on every second line of that list.

Yeah - he might have had reasons that aren't clear to us but we can reasonably say this isn't the way you would construct this list to be as efficient as possible. Not without knowing further details about the event.

There is absolutely no need to put them in a Kronos detachment if you have a Malanthrope. You play aggressively with the Malanthrope, charge a screen with him and genestealers and kill the unit. As long as the Malanthrope is within an inch of a unit that dies, all of the Hive fleet that the Malanthrope is a part of gets to reroll 1's to hit (combat and shooting) for the rest of the game. As the Hive Guard are in that detachment, they get to reroll 1's to hit if you play the Malanthrope appropriately.

This gets particularly dirty when you charge the malanthrope into a screen with the stealers, who should be announcing a charge into two units, killings one, overrunning and then swinging on another. (for a total of 4 cp). By the time the stealers are swinging on their second unit, they are hitting on 3's, rerolling 1's all without having to use their scything talons.

So it's all about playing the Malanthrope right.

Thanks so much for sharing lajollagrad. Really great insight. What turn do you find your malanthrope is able to get into combat? Who do you find your opponent is shooting at first? How do they react to your plays?

I mean, EVEN IF you pull off Malanthrope buff every single game, WITHOUT the Malanthrope dying from that point onward, at best you're getting re-rolls from turn 2 onward, the same re-rolls that you'd have from turn 1 onward with Kronos, as you are not throwing Hive Guard into assault. It also means you have to play your HG aggressively to keep up with either Flyrant / Swarmlord / Malanthrope for Synapse, when the unit is probably the best one we have for holding a defensive position with LoS+Cover-ignoring guns with some of the longest range we have available, but one of the few Heavy weaponry the dex has to to punish them if you don't. "There is absolutely no need to put them in a Kronos detachment" seems like the overstatement of the year. Were you playing them with Shockcannons or something?

The biggest reason I found as to why putting hive guard in Kronos is a trap is because you’re going to have a detachment of Kraken if you’re playing competitively that has most of your infantry that isn’t rippers. Those infantry are going to need to be protected, whether by venomthropes (my preference) or a Malanthrope.

So putting the hive guard in a different hive fleet means that they do not get that protection, and you are likely going to have a turn or two (at least) where they can get shot at. Maybe you’re moving them into a advantageous position behind terrain on turn 1 and your opponent goes first, for example. A good opponent will understand that they need to be shot at and that he likely has a limited window before they run out of LOS into their firing position.

I have not found that I am consistently able to get the malanthrope buff, plus venomthropes are just cheaper (and nearly as un-targetable because some people feel like chewing through the 9 wounds isn’t better than just living with the -1 to hit). For what it’s worth, in the short term they’re correct. Over the course of the game, not so much. The veonomthropes also have a much larger AOE.

TLDR I agree that the costs of putting hive guard in a Kronos detachment outweigh the benefits.

So... Overrun says explicitly you can't bring yourself within 1" of an enemy model. How can you use Overrun to tag additional targets in combat?

 luke1705 wrote:
The biggest reason I found as to why putting hive guard in Kronos is a trap is because you’re going to have a detachment of Kraken if you’re playing competitively that has most of your infantry that isn’t rippers. Those infantry are going to need to be protected, whether by venomthropes (my preference) or a Malanthrope.

So putting the hive guard in a different hive fleet means that they do not get that protection, and you are likely going to have a turn or two (at least) where they can get shot at. Maybe you’re moving them into a advantageous position behind terrain on turn 1 and your opponent goes first, for example. A good opponent will understand that they need to be shot at and that he likely has a limited window before they run out of LOS into their firing position.

I have not found that I am consistently able to get the malanthrope buff, plus venomthropes are just cheaper (and nearly as un-targetable because some people feel like chewing through the 9 wounds isn’t better than just living with the -1 to hit). For what it’s worth, in the short term they’re correct. Over the course of the game, not so much. The veonomthropes also have a much larger AOE.

TLDR I agree that the costs of putting hive guard in a Kronos detachment outweigh the benefits.

Nah - willingly shooting at -1 to hit targets instead of just killing the venomthropes is the worst thing you can do. Venomthropes die EASY AF. Malenthrope at least is untargetable but - it's slow and has crappy range on it's buff. In most games your HG don't need -1 to hit. Outside of LOS is where they should be. The guys that need it are tyrants and swarmy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lajollagrad wrote:

Sneggy wrote:

Mellon wrote:

weaver9 wrote:
So if I'm not mistaken best way to deliver purestrains is with a primus, using the stratagem, and hope for a 6. Are you allowed to advance with the free move?

Both 5 and 6 on the cult ambush table is usually good enough to have a decent chance on making one charge. The 6 obviously makes it easier to pull off complex mulitcharges, wrappings etc.

No, I believe you can't advance with the free move.

A 6 on the cult ambush table allows the unit to move normally. Moving normally includes being allowed to advance.

100% the reason I took a unit of Purestrain was so that a unit did not get shot off the board first turn. Using the strategem rolling for a 5/6 was all I was looking for. Buffing the unit with Might Beyond to give the unit 70 attacks hitting on twos at Strength 5 at -1 AP is gnarly no matter what way you look at it. Other magus casts Mass Hypnosis on the unit that has the most overwatch to make sure they don't shoot.

Xenomancers wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
There's a questionable decision on every second line of that list.

Yeah - he might have had reasons that aren't clear to us but we can reasonably say this isn't the way you would construct this list to be as efficient as possible. Not without knowing further details about the event.

There is absolutely no need to put them in a Kronos detachment if you have a Malanthrope. You play aggressively with the Malanthrope, charge a screen with him and genestealers and kill the unit. As long as the Malanthrope is within an inch of a unit that dies, all of the Hive fleet that the Malanthrope is a part of gets to reroll 1's to hit (combat and shooting) for the rest of the game. As the Hive Guard are in that detachment, they get to reroll 1's to hit if you play the Malanthrope appropriately.

This gets particularly dirty when you charge the malanthrope into a screen with the stealers, who should be announcing a charge into two units, killings one, overrunning and then swinging on another. (for a total of 4 cp). By the time the stealers are swinging on their second unit, they are hitting on 3's, rerolling 1's all without having to use their scything talons.

So it's all about playing the Malanthrope right.

Well obviously it worked for ya but what you are describing is hard for me to believe.

Weve got 5" move on the malan. You can opportunistic advance him and you are gonna average 5" on your advance. So we have a 15" move turn 1. Assuming the opponent is very dumb and deployed his army as close as possible to you as he could. You'd be looking at a pretty easy charge with malan. Or you could easily get him in there a number of other ways with onslaught and an advance or the swarmlord ability - but you pretty much never want to do that because it's much more preferable to use the swarm lord ability on GS or Swarmy himself. So I am assuming a onslaught was the primary method of malan delivery. Realistically as kraken this should be turn 2 charge every game for malan.

Malanthrope buff going off even if you kill a unit isn't automatic though ESP if the opponent knows Malan has to be within 1" of the final model dying - considering they have control of what order units are dying in. Admitably - most people probably aren't looking for this. So I will give you that you are getting turn 3 reroll 1's for your kraken detachment. Of which by turn 3 - advancing HG are dead....I really don't see any situation in which they wouldn't be.

(3+ Reroll 1's) 78% chance to hit vs
(4+ no rerolls) 50% chance to hit

Were talking about 48 shots over the first 2 turns.
37.44 hits vs 24 hits....seriously...there is no reason not to run them as kronos, even in this army.

 rollawaythestone wrote:
So... Overrun says explicitly you can't bring yourself within 1" of an enemy model. How can you use Overrun to tag additional targets in combat?

By combining it with Adrenaline Surge to fight again, using the pile in + consolidate moves to tag the additional units. On the turn a unit charges, it may be selected to fight even if it's outside of 1" of any enemy units, so it's valid to use Adrenaline Surge after an Overrun.
It's CP intensive, but it works.

EDIT: Just to make things clear. No attacks can be allocated to a unit you did not include in your charge. The purpose of this is merely to lock up shooting units in combat, to prevent them from being able to shoot you next turn.

I thought that was only against units you charged in your own turn, or any units in your opponent's turn.

Not sure why anyone would assume that the Hive Guard are hitting on 4's. If anything, I would assume that for a turn during the game, the hive guard would need to move (necessitating the onslaught power) which means that they won't benefit from the Kronos adaption. If every game you have a piece of perfect LOS-blocking terrain in your deployment zone that gives your hive guard all the reach you need for the entire game....congrats that must be nice.

Typically, I move my hive guard once or twice to get them into optimal hidden firing position in a decently central location or to get them in range of a specific unit that I need them to shoot at. 36" is great range, especially for ignoring LOS, but I can't pretend that they never move over the course of a game.

So yeah kronos certainly increases your accuracy, netting you 5 extra hits over the two turns of double firing (if none die, otherwise it will be less) but again I personally just haven't found that they can always hide out of LOS, so I need the venomthropes (or malanthrope).

To your point about Swarmy and the HT needing that coverage also, I totally agree. They do, which is another reason I prefer the venomthropes over the Malanthrope. You can keep covering multiple units for much longer with the venomthropes, especially once the hive guard have moved into a suitably un-targetable position.

To your point about decidedly targeting the venomthropes first, you're correct that this is usually the right play on turn 1 if they can. Hiding 3 venomthropes out of LOS is a lot easier than I thought it would be and their aura doesn't require LOS, so you can actually make them untargetable if you get moderately lucky with terrain. Or just them deploy REALLY far back if you can. The problem with saying "always shoot the venomthropes first" is that 40k is a game of breaking points. It's entirely possible that shooting those extra 9 wounds means that your lines crash just hard enough to break into that crucial shooting unit, or just enough genestealers live to keep some unit locked in combat, etc.

TLDR: saying it's always the best idea mathematically to shoot the venomthropes early is true (if you can do so effectively early enough) but saying that tactically that is always the best play is not correct IMO. 40k is more than mathhammer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nurglitch wrote:
I thought that was only against units you charged in your own turn, or any units in your opponent's turn.

It is, so if you want to hurt that secondary unit, you need to have been within 12" of at least 1 model for your initial charge, declared it as the target of your charge, and given it the opportunity to overwatch. But being able to kill/engage/tie up whatever is behind the screen on the first turn is often very much worthwhile. And if all you're trying to do is tie up the unit, then you don't need to have been within 12", as just touching them will ensure that your opponent can't fall back (and that you can't accidentally kill models so that they can fall back after morale phase deaths).

It's ironic that I find myself using it less than I mean to, but it's almost an every game stratagem IMO unless with the initial charge you already can be tied up and prevent the opponent's fall back move.

36" range is usually enough for me to deploy them and shoot all game without moving. It might not always be the prefered target - but that is fine - If they have to move to get a target because they blew up the target I had them set on (these are good problems to have).

That's kind of the way I view venoms too - they are alpha strike protect but after that they are just a waste of points - they die too easy compared to what they costs.

This is why I like carnifex - natural -1 to hit and very cost efficient even still.

 lajollagrad wrote:

Sneggy wrote:

Mellon wrote:

weaver9 wrote:
So if I'm not mistaken best way to deliver purestrains is with a primus, using the stratagem, and hope for a 6. Are you allowed to advance with the free move?

Both 5 and 6 on the cult ambush table is usually good enough to have a decent chance on making one charge. The 6 obviously makes it easier to pull off complex mulitcharges, wrappings etc.

No, I believe you can't advance with the free move.

A 6 on the cult ambush table allows the unit to move normally. Moving normally includes being allowed to advance.

100% the reason I took a unit of Purestrain was so that a unit did not get shot off the board first turn. Using the strategem rolling for a 5/6 was all I was looking for. Buffing the unit with Might Beyond to give the unit 70 attacks hitting on twos at Strength 5 at -1 AP is gnarly no matter what way you look at it. Other magus casts Mass Hypnosis on the unit that has the most overwatch to make sure they don't shoot.

Xenomancers wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
There's a questionable decision on every second line of that list.

Yeah - he might have had reasons that aren't clear to us but we can reasonably say this isn't the way you would construct this list to be as efficient as possible. Not without knowing further details about the event.

There is absolutely no need to put them in a Kronos detachment if you have a Malanthrope. You play aggressively with the Malanthrope, charge a screen with him and genestealers and kill the unit. As long as the Malanthrope is within an inch of a unit that dies, all of the Hive fleet that the Malanthrope is a part of gets to reroll 1's to hit (combat and shooting) for the rest of the game. As the Hive Guard are in that detachment, they get to reroll 1's to hit if you play the Malanthrope appropriately.

This gets particularly dirty when you charge the malanthrope into a screen with the stealers, who should be announcing a charge into two units, killings one, overrunning and then swinging on another. (for a total of 4 cp). By the time the stealers are swinging on their second unit, they are hitting on 3's, rerolling 1's all without having to use their scything talons.

So it's all about playing the Malanthrope right.

How are you getting the malanthrope to keep up. I run kraken genestealers for T1 charge so thats 20" move and advance then charge, or 40" if I have to use Swarmy Hive commander ability. Even if you burn Metabolic overdrive on the malanthrope and move and advance him you are looking at 11" if your lucky, likey 10+ then 10", then you are gambling on the charge. If its anything other than dawn of war, then the enemy is likely not 24" away and you are not going to get him in first turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 luke1705 wrote:
The biggest reason I found as to why putting hive guard in Kronos is a trap is because you’re going to have a detachment of Kraken if you’re playing competitively that has most of your infantry that isn’t rippers. Those infantry are going to need to be protected, whether by venomthropes (my preference) or a Malanthrope.

So putting the hive guard in a different hive fleet means that they do not get that protection, and you are likely going to have a turn or two (at least) where they can get shot at. Maybe you’re moving them into a advantageous position behind terrain on turn 1 and your opponent goes first, for example. A good opponent will understand that they need to be shot at and that he likely has a limited window before they run out of LOS into their firing position.

I have not found that I am consistently able to get the malanthrope buff, plus venomthropes are just cheaper (and nearly as un-targetable because some people feel like chewing through the 9 wounds isn’t better than just living with the -1 to hit). For what it’s worth, in the short term they’re correct. Over the course of the game, not so much. The veonomthropes also have a much larger AOE.

TLDR I agree that the costs of putting hive guard in a Kronos detachment outweigh the benefits.

Agree with all this. I have been moving toward the Venomthropes because of cost and larger AOE. I think in my last 2 5 game tourneys I only ever got hte malanthrope buff once, and it wasn't until like T4.


As far as Hive Guard deployment, ITC has 2 LOS blcoking terrain in middle and ruins on 1st floor are blocking LOS. I usually put them in the ruin on the first floor, sometime I have to move them or deploy them in the middle behind the LoS terrain to get range when you play diagnoly, but then you got to bubble wrap with termies or something. Plenty of times I don't move them all game and get full kronos benefits.

 luke1705 wrote:
The biggest reason I found as to why putting hive guard in Kronos is a trap is because you’re going to have a detachment of Kraken if you’re playing competitively that has most of your infantry that isn’t rippers. Those infantry are going to need to be protected, whether by venomthropes (my preference) or a Malanthrope.

So putting the hive guard in a different hive fleet means that they do not get that protection, and you are likely going to have a turn or two (at least) where they can get shot at. Maybe you’re moving them into a advantageous position behind terrain on turn 1 and your opponent goes first, for example. A good opponent will understand that they need to be shot at and that he likely has a limited window before they run out of LOS into their firing position.

I have not found that I am consistently able to get the malanthrope buff, plus venomthropes are just cheaper (and nearly as un-targetable because some people feel like chewing through the 9 wounds isn’t better than just living with the -1 to hit). For what it’s worth, in the short term they’re correct. Over the course of the game, not so much. The veonomthropes also have a much larger AOE.

TLDR I agree that the costs of putting hive guard in a Kronos detachment outweigh the benefits.

You're right, and FWIW I run mine Kraken, I don't even have a Kronos detachment though. I was just responding to the statement that "there's no real reason at all not to make them Kronos" or whatever it was, because that's clearly a bit of an exaggeration I think. Kronos is great for HG.

Xenomancers wrote:
Weve got 5" move on the malan. You can opportunistic advance him and you are gonna average 5" on your advance. So we have a 15" move turn 1. Assuming the opponent is very dumb and deployed his army as close as possible to you as he could. You'd be looking at a pretty easy charge with malan. Or you could easily get him in there a number of other ways with onslaught and an advance or the swarmlord ability - but you pretty much never want to do that because it's much more preferable to use the swarm lord ability on GS or Swarmy himself. So I am assuming a onslaught was the primary method of malan delivery. Realistically as kraken this should be turn 2 charge every game for malan.

Just want to point out, you don't get to Opportunistic Advance with Malanthrope, it has Fly. You can use Metabolic Overdrive to move and run twice, and with Kraken run speed, thats about 20-22", but it cannot be combined with Onslaught or Swarmy or anything to get that charge in after. I play my Malanthrope like this too, but I don't hinge anything on it doing so. If it makes it into a nice assault with Stealers then good, but I just use Metabolic Overdrive to let it keep up with my Krakkafexes for the most part

 SHUPPET wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
The biggest reason I found as to why putting hive guard in Kronos is a trap is because you’re going to have a detachment of Kraken if you’re playing competitively that has most of your infantry that isn’t rippers. Those infantry are going to need to be protected, whether by venomthropes (my preference) or a Malanthrope.

So putting the hive guard in a different hive fleet means that they do not get that protection, and you are likely going to have a turn or two (at least) where they can get shot at. Maybe you’re moving them into a advantageous position behind terrain on turn 1 and your opponent goes first, for example. A good opponent will understand that they need to be shot at and that he likely has a limited window before they run out of LOS into their firing position.

I have not found that I am consistently able to get the malanthrope buff, plus venomthropes are just cheaper (and nearly as un-targetable because some people feel like chewing through the 9 wounds isn’t better than just living with the -1 to hit). For what it’s worth, in the short term they’re correct. Over the course of the game, not so much. The veonomthropes also have a much larger AOE.

TLDR I agree that the costs of putting hive guard in a Kronos detachment outweigh the benefits.

You're right, and FWIW I run mine Kraken, I don't even have a Kronos detachment though. I was just responding to the statement that "there's no real reason at all not to make them Kronos" or whatever it was, because that's clearly a bit of an exaggeration I think. Kronos is great for HG.

Xenomancers wrote:
Weve got 5" move on the malan. You can opportunistic advance him and you are gonna average 5" on your advance. So we have a 15" move turn 1. Assuming the opponent is very dumb and deployed his army as close as possible to you as he could. You'd be looking at a pretty easy charge with malan. Or you could easily get him in there a number of other ways with onslaught and an advance or the swarmlord ability - but you pretty much never want to do that because it's much more preferable to use the swarm lord ability on GS or Swarmy himself. So I am assuming a onslaught was the primary method of malan delivery. Realistically as kraken this should be turn 2 charge every game for malan.

Just want to point out, you don't get to Opportunistic Advance with Malanthrope, it has Fly. You can use Metabolic Overdrive to move and run twice, and with Kraken run speed, thats about 20-22", but it cannot be combined with Onslaught or Swarmy or anything to get that charge in after. I play my Malanthrope like this too, but I don't hinge anything on it doing so. If it makes it into a nice assault with Stealers then good, but I just use Metabolic Overdrive to let it keep up with my Krakkafexes for the most part

You are correct - so all the tools are there. You can Opportunistic advance a steeler unit then. No way to really get that reroll ones ability till turn 3.

Plus yeah - I don't fool around with multiple hive fleets ether - it's just if you have a kronos detachment already...it's kinda like...why nots the HG in kronos? I play Levi so I need Synapse coverage everywhere.

What are peoples’ thoughts on sky slasher swarms? The usual 3 Mucolid Spores to fill Brigade FA slots is getting old, and they seem like they have potential in a Leviathan list for popping War on All Fronts and just being a nuisance. They’re the same cost as regular rippers but lose objective secured and deepstrike. If I just want to eat bullets for my characters and tie up vehicles they seem pretty decent.

Arson Fire wrote:

 rollawaythestone wrote:
So... Overrun says explicitly you can't bring yourself within 1" of an enemy model. How can you use Overrun to tag additional targets in combat?

By combining it with Adrenaline Surge to fight again, using the pile in + consolidate moves to tag the additional units. On the turn a unit charges, it may be selected to fight even if it's outside of 1" of any enemy units, so it's valid to use Adrenaline Surge after an Overrun.
It's CP intensive, but it works.

Keep in mind that by using that combination of stratagems you still cannot declare attacks against units you havent declared as a charge targets. That limits its effectiveness.

Yes, I should have mentioned that to make things clear. No allocating attacks to a unit you didn't include in your charge. However it's still a situationally useful trick to tag distant units in order to prevent them shooting next turn.

For instance fighting through a screening unit, then jumping forwards to lock up a battery of basilisks that your opponent thought were far enough behind the screen that they couldn't be piled into.

Hey guys, i'm looking for an advice. What are the most efficient ways to play Leviathan and Kraken? I have Behemoth and Hydra tyranids myself, but i'm looking forward to build more. After watching the whole orktober orks-stuff, I decided NOT to jump into battlewagon and turned my intrests back to nids..

-Sentinel- wrote:

Arson Fire wrote:

 rollawaythestone wrote:
So... Overrun says explicitly you can't bring yourself within 1" of an enemy model. How can you use Overrun to tag additional targets in combat?

By combining it with Adrenaline Surge to fight again, using the pile in + consolidate moves to tag the additional units. On the turn a unit charges, it may be selected to fight even if it's outside of 1" of any enemy units, so it's valid to use Adrenaline Surge after an Overrun.
It's CP intensive, but it works.

Keep in mind that by using that combination of stratagems you still cannot declare attacks against units you havent declared as a charge targets. That limits its effectiveness.

Wouldn't allocating attacks kind of defeat point of it anyway? You attack, likely kill models, opponent obviously removes models trapped and thus can fall back leaving your squad out in the open ready to be blasted to bits.

Another consideration with the Malanthrope's buff... a unit has to die within 1". Due to wound allocation being the way it is, it's very easy for an opponent to remove the models within 1" first. The same thing happens to Ynarri. If not every model in a unit is within 7", your opponent can just remove all the models within 7" first. It doesn't matter if the entire unit dies from a single unit's shooting.

So even if you manage to get Malanthrope into melee with a screen of 10 dudes while a unit of Genestealers is also in melee... they can still prevent you from getting the buff even after the genestealers completely wipe out the unit in a single fight phase. Because all they have to do is remove the closest models to the Malanthrope first.

So if you're consistently getting the buff from a Malanthrope... then you're probably playing the rules wrong or your opponent is ignorant of the rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Spreelock wrote:
Hey guys, i'm looking for an advice. What are the most efficient ways to play Leviathan and Kraken? I have Behemoth and Hydra tyranids myself, but i'm looking forward to build more. After watching the whole orktober orks-stuff, I decided NOT to jump into battlewagon and turned my intrests back to nids..

The most efficient ways?

Kraken is pretty self-explanitory. Genestealers, genestealers and more genestealers. Some Hormagaunt screens. Swarmlord. A unit of Hive Guard maybe for that double shoot strat. Flyrants with MRC and Dakka.

Leviathan isn't as common but it's most effective in 2 kinds of list. As a support detachment for a Kraken list, you can take a Supreme Command with Flyrants with four devourers. Leviathan helps boost a Flyrant's resiliency, and taking a full 3 of them can saturate enemy fire.
The second way to use Leviathan is in a swarm based list. Take a huge hoard of gants (like 120+) and support them with Neurothropes, Venomthropes and Zoanthropes. Saturate the board with resilient little bugs and smite anything that gets close.