Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured

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**Amishprn86**

orchewer wrote:
Quick question for any Nidzilla players out there ... are Tyrant Guard an "auto-include" if you are running Swarmlord and a few Hive Tyrants or is it still viable to have a whole bunch of Flyrants zipping about the battlefield without any protection units?

I dont play Nidzilla a lot, but when i do i dont take those. Thats mostly b.c its Kraken with 2 Harpies and 3 Flyrants, 2 Tfex, and the rest Fex's/Rippers with a Malanthrope for turn 1 protection, with the +cover stratagem now, +1/-1 really helps.

Players will (for me) always go after my Harpies 1st, turn 1 shooting, bomb, charge is very annoying for them (And then they get to fallback, shoot, bomb, charge), if something must die, then let it be them over my Flyrants.

3 Tyrant Guard are cheaper tho and can work well, you can easily have 3 of them near 3 Tyrants. I would say try it out, you might like the Guard

**Eihnlazer**

If your playing leviathan and have swarmlord and a flyrant on the board I would definitely stick a unit of tyrant guard down with them.

**rollawaythestone**

I like the guard coupled with a malanthrope to keep my swarmlord and flyrants safe turn 1.

**Niiai**

What do people thibk of the new GSC and what they bring to the table?

**Amishprn86**

I honestly need to read it a couple times first.

But the Blips, if we can use them will stop a lot of turn 1 charges (other than Da Jump type moves, but double movement abilities, there are a few of those).

Depending on the powers, those might be just as important as they are now as well.

Many Nids players are using GSC for powers and Abs to anti-Knight, i can see that still being a thing.

Edit: With the odd HQ keywords (again need to read it to fit it together) it might be hard to ally in what/how we want.

**orchewer**

Amishprn86 wrote:

I dont play Nidzilla a lot, but when i do i dont take those. Thats mostly b.c its Kraken with 2 Harpies and 3 Flyrants, 2 Tfex, and the rest Fex's/Rippers with a Malanthrope for turn 1 protection, with the +cover stratagem now, +1/-1 really helps.

Eihnlazer wrote:If your playing leviathan and have swarmlord and a flyrant on the board I would definitely stick a unit of tyrant guard down with them.

rollawaythestone wrote:I like the guard coupled with a malanthrope to keep my swarmlord and flyrants safe turn 1.

Thanks for all the advice! Even though I'm definitely seeing the benefits of Tyrant Guard, I think I'm feeling a little better with not having them in my future army and keeping only Flyrants and big beasts. I run Behemoth so my hypothetical Tyrant Guard wouldn't be getting their 6++ anyway.

On a completely unrelated note, what have Tyranid players found to be most effective at countering Knights? My current list is only 1000 points so I haven't really geared it towards Knights since I rarely see them at that points level, but as my army grows, I know that there are definitely a few Knights in my meta that I could start facing on the battlefield.

**Niiai**

I do not kbow if nids have a good knight counter. Smite maiby?

Remember that his infantery rules does not work on swarms, like the ripper swarm.

I think GSC hanmers or miners cane be your best option?

**Arson Fire**

orchewer wrote:

On a completely unrelated note, what have Tyranid players found to be most effective at countering Knights? My current list is only 1000 points so I haven't really geared it towards Knights since I rarely see them at that points level, but as my army grows, I know that there are definitely a few Knights in my meta that I could start facing on the battlefield.

Not having a strong counter to knights is one of the nids main weaknesses from a competitive standpoint. Personally I've found it often best to bring a horde and just spam models the knights are inefficient at killing, and win on objectives.
Hive guard can do some decent damage, but need a couple of turns to drop a knight. The rest of our anti-tank guns are on big monstrous creatures, which tend to evaporate in front of castellan guns.

Genestealer cult allies are the place to look for taking out knights. They've got a lot more in the way of high strength weaponry.

**SHUPPET**

Niiai wrote:
What do people thibk of the new GSC and what they bring to the table?

I don't specifically know what their presence will bring to a Tyranid list, a large amount of their good stuff seems to hinge on force multipliers so it seems like to ally them in may take a significant points committment.

I probably won't be playing any solo GSC, and honestly won't even be allying them that often either, I like looking at what they are capable of together but mostly prefer solo Nids aesthetically. Here's what I am planning on running every now and again for when people get uppitty and need a good beatdown - a side detachment of GSC for Nexos CP, Vect, and some assault-out-of-deepstrike goodness in Neophytes and Purestrains.

Tyranid Battalion: Kraken

Broodlord, The Horror
Neurothrope, Psychic Scream

20x Genestealers
10x Hormagaunts
10x Hormagaunts
10x Termagants

6x Hive Guard

3x Dakkafex, Sporecysts, Bone Mace

Genestealer Cult Battalion: Cult of The 4-Armed Emperor
Deliverance Broodsurge

Patriarch, familiar
Iconward, Banner

10x Neophytes
10x Neophytes
10x Neophytes

Clamavus
Nexos
Locus
20x Purestrains

Might also consider swapping the Locus around for a Kelermorph if he's any good or if the Mental Onslaught bomb gets nerfed. I think he's probably a little overhyped though

If I wanted to go smaller than this I'd probably take literally just 2x Magus + Deliverance Neophytes and throw some tarpits at them while Vecting them.

Just my opinions. Might completely change once we've played them. Dunno.

**Zimko**

I think a patrol of GSC will be worth it. 1 Neophyte squad and 1 psyker (either Magus or Patriarch, I'll have to wait to see the rules).

But my main reason will be for the Vect stratagem. I don't know what it's called but it's worded exacrtly like Agent's of Vect. Being able to shut down a stratagem is so powerful, it's hard not to take a small 130 pts patrol of GSC just to gain access to it. That 130 pts is also buying the useful psychic powers of GSC, and there might be other stratagems worth using.

**babelfish**

Right now it looks like GSC offers us a superior version of Agents of Vect, the Kelermorph, the flamer bomb, Aberents, two useful spells, a CP regen character, blip shenanigans, and potentially rock saw 'morphs.

Aberents and 'morphs provide a deep striking CC tool that has a high likelyhood to succeed the charge and can one shot a knight. They also require a substantial points investment and some secondary units to work properly. They represent a very useful but high cost tool that covers a major weakness.

GSC's version of Vect costs 3 CP instead of 4, and is easy to access via a min patrol or command detachment. Very useful, very cheap.

The Kelermorph is cheap, useful, and can be plugged into a cheap battalion or the like that you are bringing for Vect.

Both of the spells (mind war equivalent- d6+ Ld vs d6+Ld for mortal wounds and the mind control one) expect to do some damage, have potential to swing a game, and are cheap to access.

The flamer bomb is a 160 point unit that deep strikes at 3 inches and puts 20d6 S3 AP0 hits on a unit. Very solid for clearing screens/objectives. Tyranids have access to a lot of ways to kill infantry, but not one that is as efficient in a suicide bomb way. Some lists will get a great deal of value out of them, others will solve the problem in different ways.

CP regen is CP regen. I'm not sold on the character it comes on, but he is low cost and is worth thinking about if you are splashing GSC.

The blips mechanic has lots of potential as a screening tool. Against some armies it will be meaningless, against others it will be very useful. If you splash GSC, you get access to it, so free, occassionally useful tool.

I expect to see two things. First, Tyranid lists that splash a few hundred points of GSC for access to Vect/Kelermorph/CP regen/spells in the form of a cheap battalion or vanguard detachment. Second, hybrid lists that bring Aberants or saw morphs as super heavy killers, supported by classic Tyranid units such as true genestealers, Hive Guard, Flyrants, and the like.

**Amishprn86**

The GSC version of AoV will get bump to 4cp for sure. It most likely was printed before the faq.

**SHUPPET**

Amishprn86 wrote:
The GSC version of AoV will get bump to 4cp for sure. It most likely was printed before the faq.

its printed with the errata'd wording so probably not

**Badablack**

GSC also get the Heal D3 wounds stratagem for 1cp instead of 2, I think it’s just balanced around them being cheaper.

**Arson Fire**

Badablack wrote:
GSC also get the Heal D3 wounds stratagem for 1cp instead of 2, I think it’s just balanced around them being cheaper.

It makes sense. Their characters are mostly pretty scrawny things compared to ours. Each of their wounds means a lot less than one of ours does, due to T3 and 5+ saves. So regenerating them should cost less.

I think they have some shenanigans with relics/traits where they can get a T5 guy with a 3++, but that's an outlier.

**Eihnlazer**

It's become woefully apparent that pure nids have almost no chance to beat orks competitively. The ork army that beat my list at the LVO didn't even have to use half his models to beat me. I admit I made a mistake early on, but it didn't effect much when I look back on it.

**babelfish**

Eihnlazer wrote:
It's become woefully apparent that pure nids have almost no chance to beat orks competitively. The ork army that beat my list at the LVO didn't even have to use half his models to beat me. I admit I made a mistake early on, but it didn't effect much when I look back on it.

I am deeply surprised by this. I have not played against the new Orks, but my monster heavy builds tended to crush the old book.

**Tyran**

I imagine that they meansl we have no way to defeat Orks with a competitive list. Sure we can make lists that can crush Orks, but those lists in turn would be useless in a tournament.

**admironheart**

I haven't played my nids in a bit. When last I trotted out my Warriors with my Trygon....I fell in love.

I want to do a second large Warrior unit popping up.

Is there any other mechanism other than the Trygon?

If I have 2 large Warrior units ...what else would you build the army around with it?

**Eldarain**

You can use jormangundr tunnelling strategem to bring them in with a cheaper unit.

**SHUPPET**

Eihnlazer wrote:
It's become woefully apparent that pure nids have almost no chance to beat orks competitively. The ork army that beat my list at the LVO didn't even have to use half his models to beat me. I admit I made a mistake early on, but it didn't effect much when I look back on it.

ouch, damn. what was your list?

**Eihnlazer**

The list will be below.

As i said, i did make a huge mistake on the first day, and if I had noticed it I probably would have gone 5/1 for the weekend, so thats on me. I dont feel it would have effected my game againgst the orks at all though. For some reason, I was only taking 3 attacks with my genestealers instead of 4. I realized my mistake after my first 3 games and didnt loose any other games from that point on during the 40k champs.

I blame this on the fact that I just didnt get enough practice in before hand. My local group is rather small and only 1 of the players other than me keeps up with the rules dilligently.

Spoiler:

**Spoletta**

Our units that tend to be good against orks aren't usually taken. Probably our best unit against orks are warriors. Pyrovores and flesborer tfex too should work.

**SHUPPET**

damn that list looks like it hits hard but I can see why it struggled v orks. At the same time, I don't think you should declare the match up gone after a single game.

Ive found that rather than putting all your eggs in the double Genestealer, Swarmlord basket, if you play a more balanced game Vs Orkz, with Dakkafexes, screens, and much more bodies, they are much more manageable. I think even your list might find a way of you played a few more games.

**Eihnlazer**

The genestealers are nessecary againgst a lot of other competitive lists though, and they actually kill orks really well, but any good ork list is just gonna feed grots to them and then wipe them out in return.

Orks get more bodies and attacks for the same price, so there is little chance for nids to beat them.

My opponent could have tabled me by turn 3 if he had played correctly with his list, but he didn't need too. He just keept throwing boyz forward, one squad at a time and never let me cross the halfway point on the board.

**pinecone77**

admironheart wrote:
I haven't played my nids in a bit. When last I trotted out my Warriors with my Trygon....I fell in love.

I want to do a second large Warrior unit popping up.

Is there any other mechanism other than the Trygon?

If I have 2 large Warrior units ...what else would you build the army around with it?

Jormangandr can use all sorts of tunneling beasties, Ravagers are likely the "best" (Cheap, and can charge a seperate unit) I'm pretty sure I posted a multi Warrior taxi list Waaaay back...might be able to search it out and mine it for ideas.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eihnlazer wrote:
The genestealers are nessecary againgst a lot of other competitive lists though, and they actually kill orks really well, but any good ork list is just gonna feed grots to them and then wipe them out in return.

Orks get more bodies and attacks for the same price, so there is little chance for nids to beat them.

My opponent could have tabled me by turn 3 if he had played correctly with his list, but he didn't need too. He just keept throwing boyz forward, one squad at a time and never let me cross the halfway point on the board.

I agree that Orks are bad news right now, one question, did you use Acid Blood strat? I like using that to hose Hth heavy foes the more they kill the more I get to roll.

Right now the "standard" for Orks is Da Jump, and Mob up on Lootas not much can be done to stop that, but it sounds like the foe did not do that.Hmmm...

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, I've ruminated a while....I think that more screens and shooty is an answer. You want to get Orks into a shooting duel. How is the question. That is "meta" reliant, how much do you want to alter your strategy? I think if Orks are going to be an issue, then I would "swap out" the third component of Swarmy and pyro and put in a anti ork regiment. Play testing is the only way to know what goes in there, because Pyrovores should be really good vs orks...

One bad answer might be ...Flyers, might be that a pair of Harpies could screech, bomb and stranglethorne their way into you heart?

**Eihnlazer**

I use acid blood if it seems like im gonna loose the whole unit before I swing. Its actually a very good way to deal with knights.

The look of horror on my opponent face when I tell them I can deal them up to 27 mortal wounds if their knight kills one unit of my pyrovores in melee is pretty priceless.

The pryovores did fine at the LVO for most of the games. Either my opponent was scared of them and dumped a lot of firepower into them (and not the rest of my army) or they get underestimated and torch objective holders for me. Againgst the orcs unfortunately I rolled horribly for their flamer hits. 3 times I rolled 3d6 and got a 5 total when shooting at them.

**pinecone77**

It's true, there is no cure for the wrath of the dice gawds.

I wish we had a auto explode strat like admech have to make killing Big bugs scarey.

I'll keep on pondering the "Ork problem".

Good luck! And good hunting!

**SHUPPET**

pinecone77 wrote:

Ok, I've ruminated a while....I think that more screens and shooty is an answer. You want to get Orks into a shooting duel. How is the question. That is "meta" reliant, how much do you want to alter your strategy? I think if Orks are going to be an issue, then I would "swap out" the third component of Swarmy and pyro and put in a anti ork regiment. Play testing is the only way to know what goes in there, because Pyrovores should be really good vs orks... One bad answer might be ...Flyers, might be that a pair of Harpies could screech, bomb and stranglethorne their way into you heart?

Yeah, I agree with this (hell it is basically exactly what I said). Except the bit about Pyrovores. Also Flyrants.

I don't think you desperately need double Stealer / Swarmy at all to compete. Dakkafexes with screens up are very universal units. A single unit of Kraken Stealers with is enough to do exactly what you need most matches, without dedicating literally nearly 750 pts of your list to it on matches where they aren't that great. Hell you don't even need the full squad. This is advice I got from Matt Root, the highest ranked Tyranid player in the ITC with a very impressive competitive record with Nids (he does exactly that himself) and it hasn't failed me yet. The Swarmy / Stealer combo is great for really rushing your opponent down and does well vs shooty lists who don't want to get tied up by a bunch of angry claw bois (the majority of the meta has lists that will lose a lot of punch once Stealers start their offense). However, Orkz are not one of them, and they will shrug it off pretty well and punch back just as hard. It's not hard to see why a list with 750 pts spent in 3 separate units will have a bad match up here, I don't think it's a Tyranid problem so much as it that if you don't take a TAC list, you will find that right next to the good match ups, there is a bad match up too.

**Niiai**

When I playeds nids vs the index orks a stealer had about as good chance of being killed by a boy as the other way around. While not true, stealers are slightly better, the fact that boyz are that much cheaper makes it bad.

The stratagem that lets you fight outside of turn sequence regarding charges is quite devestating with multiple groups of stealers.

I always run 18 warriors. They do good vs orks.