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 lindsay40k wrote:
Point of order - Malanthrope do not prevent ‘1/6 hits’. 6+++ stuff like Changeling does something similar (1/6 of Wounds), but -1 to be hit prevents:

25% of BS3+ hits
33% of BS4+ hits (that makes it a lot harder for Tau to get full Marker Light bonuses)
50% of BS5+ hits
100% of BS6+ hits (play against Orks and cast The Horror and this becomes extremely relevant - potentially, you can switch off a Stompa’s guns)

This is assuming no re-rolls, but still, a very tasty result - which also makes supercharged Plasma extremely unattrative, which is very nice indeed.

ah true. 1/6 is a bad summary indeed.

Also note for just 10ppm Carnifex don't need melanthrope support due to their spore cysts (they do the same thing but don't stack)

 Zimko wrote:
Lol, I like how a couple of them made their Warlord a Meiotic Spore. First of all... is that even legal? Second of all... I guess that would deny Slay the Warlord since spores don't count towards any objectives? Very interesting.

The meiotic spore warlord guy is me. I think I'm the only one who did it (my list has been copy/pasted twice in that spoiler.)
Firstly yes its legal, your warlord can be any model in your army. Just if its not a character you don't get a warlord trait.
It does deny slay the warlord, also the kingslayer card. It also makes the stupid maelstrom card where your warlord has to hold an objective impossible so you get to freely discard it in this mission format.

Its a touch gamey but in a world of triple shining spear, triple dark reaper ynnarri I feel its hardly breaking the game so meh.

Timeshadow wrote:
Also note for just 10ppm Carnifex don't need melanthrope support due to their spore cysts (they do the same thing but don't stack)

Melanthrope... I am picturing a Lovecraftian cantaloupe.

Deathwatch just killed lists that rely on Neurothrope or Malanthropes - they've got a stratagem that basically gives a squad universal sniper scopes

With access to squads with five Plasma Incinerators, or five Heavy Bolters or Frag Cannons AND a load of assault cannons or cyclones, I guess a lot of IMPERIUM lists will have some

Deathwatch has the problem that they pay a lot for the standard guy, so it is usually unfeasible to play them. With those stratagems though...

Slap the Kraken -1 to hit relic on your malanthrope and he’s still going to weather most of that fire. It’s only one squad.

 SHUPPET wrote:

Fragile wrote:
You can believe that, but that's your tactical decision. There is literally no effort in putting 6 fex in front of a Malanthrope in range leading the way. There is plenty of room to tie tails of other units in as well.

"literally no effort" except all the effort I just explained, but okay.... :(

For starters you have to half circle the Thrope to begin with just to get the Dakkafexes in range, you can't just put them in front of it, so it's pretty clear you've never actually tried to do this.

Actually I played two tournaments with this basic core when the codex dropped. Dakkafexes backed up by Stonecrushers. A Kraken Malanthrope rarely has any issues with keeping up with the 3 dice advance, and the additional movement of the Fexen allows maneuverability around terrain as needed. Both Genestealer squads and both termagant squads were also easily able to tie a tail into the -1 aura.

Go playtest a match with a bunch of MC's surrounding a Malanthrope on a battlefield with actual terrain on it, I don't just mean craters, and try move them up the board and see if you feel like you aren't seriously hampering the movement to keep in range of the shroud. And stop discounting the Exocrine who is the largest and most important model to be protected there out of all of them. Moving a thrope with a blob of MCs wasn't easy back when they had the same movespeed and 6" bubble. 3" is not a generous amount of room at all.

This sounds like more theory than actual play. Besides the -1 bubble is only critical in the first two turns.

But, to each their own. If you dont like it, dont play it.

Fragile wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

Fragile wrote:
You can believe that, but that's your tactical decision. There is literally no effort in putting 6 fex in front of a Malanthrope in range leading the way. There is plenty of room to tie tails of other units in as well.

"literally no effort" except all the effort I just explained, but okay.... :(

For starters you have to half circle the Thrope to begin with just to get the Dakkafexes in range, you can't just put them in front of it, so it's pretty clear you've never actually tried to do this.

Actually I played two tournaments with this basic core when the codex dropped. Dakkafexes backed up by Stonecrushers. A Kraken Malanthrope rarely has any issues with keeping up with the 3 dice advance, and the additional movement of the Fexen allows maneuverability around terrain as needed. Both Genestealer squads and both termagant squads were also easily able to tie a tail into the -1 aura.

Go playtest a match with a bunch of MC's surrounding a Malanthrope on a battlefield with actual terrain on it, I don't just mean craters, and try move them up the board and see if you feel like you aren't seriously hampering the movement to keep in range of the shroud. And stop discounting the Exocrine who is the largest and most important model to be protected there out of all of them. Moving a thrope with a blob of MCs wasn't easy back when they had the same movespeed and 6" bubble. 3" is not a generous amount of room at all.

This sounds like more theory than actual play. Besides the -1 bubble is only critical in the first two turns.

But, to each their own. If you dont like it, dont play it.

Lol sure. I'd bet my house your first list wasnt actually playing with 6 Carnifex, an Exocrine and infantry supported by a Malanthrope as you now claim, but it's cool. To each their own as you said, and I probably just have a higher level of competitive standard than you. So lets stop hounding me about taking something unless you can constructively word your responses to the issues I had with the unit for my list, rather than being unnecessarily snarky from the jump. I don't think it's a good call for my army and when I said this was like a week ago, so can please move on? Thanks.

It is nice to have you back at dakka shuppet.

 lindsay40k wrote:
Deathwatch just killed lists that rely on Neurothrope or Malanthropes - they've got a stratagem that basically gives a squad universal sniper scopes.

Compared to some of the other Xenos I think our "anti-stratagem" is among the more mild to be fair (poor Tau). That said, the biggest thing it potentially shuts down is lists using 'thropes as a hidden warlord while the "real" leaders throw themselves into action. Still, can do the trick to an extent if said hidden Warlord isRed Terror, Deathleaper, or Old One Eye (which is actually mildly amusing given the general Imperial dogma of "shoot the big ones" when dealing with 'nids).

I agree with the second point though. I wouldn't be surprised to see the Primaris Kill Team start popping up in Imperial lists give that it "fixes" one of the main issue Intercessors had (no specials) and Hellblasters had (no ablative bodies). Also a bit curious that they did not preview an anti-GSC stratagem in the article, given that the Deathwatch were originally released with GSC and given that the anti-Tyranid one can't be used against GSC unlike the anti-Eldar one which covers all three (or five, depending on how you view the Dark Eldar book).

 lindsay40k wrote:
Deathwatch just killed lists that rely on Neurothrope or Malanthropes - they've got a stratagem that basically gives a squad universal sniper scopes

With access to squads with five Plasma Incinerators, or five Heavy Bolters or Frag Cannons AND a load of assault cannons or cyclones, I guess a lot of IMPERIUM lists will have some

Not worried. They can target the synapse but IB is really the issue. Most of the time you are shooting or charging the closest thing anyway. Not to mention most people take Flyrants for Synapse. Besides, Deathwatch is a niche army, and with the change to no longer allowing Multi "soup" within the detachment, it is forcing Imperium and marine players to take an entire detachment of Deathwatch for a single stratagem, where they MAY play a Tyrnaid list that fields Neurothrope. And its good vs a 70 point model, or 140 with Malanthrope. I don't see people committing and entire detachment of DW marines on the off chance they may be able to use this one stratagem against 1 army they in a tourney.

Solution, just take 2 flyrants minimum, that would cover synapse on most things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sneggy wrote:

 Zimko wrote:
Lol, I like how a couple of them made their Warlord a Meiotic Spore. First of all... is that even legal? Second of all... I guess that would deny Slay the Warlord since spores don't count towards any objectives? Very interesting.

The meiotic spore warlord guy is me. I think I'm the only one who did it (my list has been copy/pasted twice in that spoiler.)
Firstly yes its legal, your warlord can be any model in your army. Just if its not a character you don't get a warlord trait.
It does deny slay the warlord, also the kingslayer card. It also makes the stupid maelstrom card where your warlord has to hold an objective impossible so you get to freely discard it in this mission format.

Its a touch gamey but in a world of triple shining spear, triple dark reaper ynnarri I feel its hardly breaking the game so meh.

I don't think its gamey, its actually pretty smart. Never even realized that. Most people, myself included, just assume a warlord has to be an HQ slot. Interested to see how it goes for you.

 Strat_N8 wrote:

SHUPPET wrote:
How hot we talking? And what effect does it have on the paintjob?

I heated the water until it had steam coiling from the surface but not quite at a boil. The paint was more or less unaffected, but I didn't keep it submerged very long (held it by the base) so there wasn't much time for any of the paint to dissolve.

so just to confirm before I baptise this guy, that I should just hold him under water say 10 seconds? 30 seconds? and then try to mold his spinal problems back into place?





The picture doesn't really do justice to how bad a gangster lean he really has going on there. I'm really disappointed in these finecasts, my Zopes are slightly saggy too. But not enough to risk the paintjob for just yet.

How long it takes depends on how hot the water is. It doesn't take very hot water though. I just run them under the tap.

You should be able to feel it soften and become very flexible as you're holding it under. Just apply a small amount of pressure as you're holding it, and you'll be able to tell when it's ready.

It should harden again fairly quickly once you take it out of the water, but it can still help if you have some cold water ready to dunk it in once you've set it back into shape.

You should be fine. It's fairly straightforward, and if you don't get it right the first time, just reheat and try again.

Arson Fire wrote:
How long it takes depends on how hot the water is. It doesn't take very hot water though. I just run them under the tap.

You should be able to feel it soften and become very flexible as you're holding it under. Just apply a small amount of pressure as you're holding it, and you'll be able to tell when it's ready.

It should harden again fairly quickly once you take it out of the water, but it can still help if you have some cold water ready to dunk it in once you've set it back into shape.

You should be fine. It's fairly straightforward, and if you don't get it right the first time, just reheat and try again.

thanks dude!


lost a touch of paint on the tail, but it was all just grey, no carapace. Easily fixed. And now hes standing up straight again! cheers

SHUPPET wrote:

Arson Fire wrote:
How long it takes depends on how hot the water is. It doesn't take very hot water though. I just run them under the tap.

You should be able to feel it soften and become very flexible as you're holding it under. Just apply a small amount of pressure as you're holding it, and you'll be able to tell when it's ready.

It should harden again fairly quickly once you take it out of the water, but it can still help if you have some cold water ready to dunk it in once you've set it back into shape.

You should be fine. It's fairly straightforward, and if you don't get it right the first time, just reheat and try again.

thanks dude!


lost a touch of paint on the tail, but it was all just grey, no carapace. Easily fixed. And now hes standing up straight again! cheers

Arson Fire beat me to it... Glad the technique worked out for you though!


I suppose to swing back around to tactics, I've been playing around with a pair of Toxicrenes a bit in a Leviathan lists to try to take advantage of War on all Fronts as a means to fix their accuracy issues using Tyrannocytes as the enabler and a potential deployment option if required. Having spent time going over them they have a lot of interesting utility capabilities (multiple abilities that can inflict mortal wounds, always swings first to disrupts multiple assaults, can shoot into melee with friendlies to try to free them up to do other things, provides CP regeneration via Feeder Tendrils, etc.) for relatively cheap, so I'm curious to find a good list for them to fit in to. Unfortunately, neither of the two games so far fielding them them were entirely good tests of their capabilities. In the first game they rolled unusually well and vastly over-performed (killed two Paladin squads, a Strike squad, and Draigo) while in the second game the opponent tailored for anti-monster, so they got held back until later in the game when most things were locked down by Hormagaunts (main contribution was killing a Doomsday Ark and finishing off a Destroyer squad). In both instances one of the two survived until the end, albeit with only a handful of wounds left.

Anyway, here is the last list I used with them if anyone wants to tinker with it. I already have a few revisions in mind (it wasn't exactly built as an optimized list, mostly a test bed for various things) but I'd be happy to hear what anyone else might do with the basic core of 90 Hormagaunts + 2x Tyrannocytes + 2x Toxicrenes.

Just sharing two tourney lists

https://diceshot.com/2018/05/08/tyranids-m-evanss-list/

https://diceshot.com/2018/05/08/tyranids-a-macdougalls-list/

 Strat_N8 wrote:

SHUPPET wrote:

Arson Fire wrote:
How long it takes depends on how hot the water is. It doesn't take very hot water though. I just run them under the tap.

You should be able to feel it soften and become very flexible as you're holding it under. Just apply a small amount of pressure as you're holding it, and you'll be able to tell when it's ready.

It should harden again fairly quickly once you take it out of the water, but it can still help if you have some cold water ready to dunk it in once you've set it back into shape.

You should be fine. It's fairly straightforward, and if you don't get it right the first time, just reheat and try again.

thanks dude!


lost a touch of paint on the tail, but it was all just grey, no carapace. Easily fixed. And now hes standing up straight again! cheers

Arson Fire beat me to it... Glad the technique worked out for you though!


I suppose to swing back around to tactics, I've been playing around with a pair of Toxicrenes a bit in a Leviathan lists to try to take advantage of War on all Fronts as a means to fix their accuracy issues using Tyrannocytes as the enabler and a potential deployment option if required. Having spent time going over them they have a lot of interesting utility capabilities (multiple abilities that can inflict mortal wounds, always swings first to disrupts multiple assaults, can shoot into melee with friendlies to try to free them up to do other things, provides CP regeneration via Feeder Tendrils, etc.) for relatively cheap, so I'm curious to find a good list for them to fit in to. Unfortunately, neither of the two games so far fielding them them were entirely good tests of their capabilities. In the first game they rolled unusually well and vastly over-performed (killed two Paladin squads, a Strike squad, and Draigo) while in the second game the opponent tailored for anti-monster, so they got held back until later in the game when most things were locked down by Hormagaunts (main contribution was killing a Doomsday Ark and finishing off a Destroyer squad). In both instances one of the two survived until the end, albeit with only a handful of wounds left.

Anyway, here is the last list I used with them if anyone wants to tinker with it. I already have a few revisions in mind (it wasn't exactly built as an optimized list, mostly a test bed for various things) but I'd be happy to hear what anyone else might do with the basic core of 90 Hormagaunts + 2x Tyrannocytes + 2x Toxicrenes.

Spoiler:

Leviathan Battalion:
HQ: 1x Swarmlord
HQ: 1x Hive Tyrant with Reaper of Oblitrax, Heavy Venom Cannon (taken to test the Reaper as my walking model is magnetized while my flyers aren't)

ELITES: 6x Venomthropes (taken because of the gaunt swarm below)

TROOPS: 30x Hormagaunts
TROOPS: 30x Hormagaunts
TROOPS: 30x Hormagaunts
TROOPS: 9x Warriors with Scything Talons, Boneswords (7x), Barbed Stranglers (2x)

HEAVY: 1x Toxicrene
HEAVY: 1x Toxicrene

TRANSPORT: 1x Tyrannocyte with Deathspitters
TRANSPORT: 1x Tyrannocyte with Deathspitters

Total: 1850 points

I would really like to use Toxicrenes, that model is amazing. It wants to do so many things at the same time though that mathammer is not going to give you a lot of info.
Why do you say that accuracy is his problem? Actually that is one of the few beasts with an innate 3+. It has a really good stat block, Str 7, 6 attacks, always reroll wounds, attacks first, shoots in melee with a decent profile, lots of mortal wounds... On paper it's a really good beast, the reason why i hesitate to use it is that it has probably the worst degradation chart in the game. I can see it getting a lot of benefit from being put in a tyrannocite and from Leviathan, so i approve of your list, i just don't get what you mean by "accuracy issues".

Sometimes i think that tyranids would get seriously OP if we had a stratagem like tha T'au one that allows a model to ignore wounds for a turn

Bossanovee wrote:
Just sharing two tourney lists

https://diceshot.com/2018/05/08/tyranids-m-evanss-list/

https://diceshot.com/2018/05/08/tyranids-a-macdougalls-list/

Thanks. Is stacking the Hive Guards into one unit preferred because of stratagem purposes?

 SHUPPET wrote:



Thanks. Is stacking the Hive Guards into one unit preferred because of stratagem purposes?

Yes, because the Double Fire Stratagem works on a Unit .. so its better to have a Unit with 6 for more shots


*edit* also stacking Hive Guards has been around since before the Nerf already, there were Hive Guard heavy lists at Adepticon, people were scared they would get a nerf too because of that, but it seems GW ignored them for now .. lets hope they dont get the nerfbat in the next Autumn FAQ

 FFridge wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:



Thanks. Is stacking the Hive Guards into one unit preferred because of stratagem purposes?

Yes, because the Double Fire Stratagem works on a Unit .. so its better to have a Unit with 6 for more shots


*edit* also stacking Hive Guards has been around since before the Nerf already, there were Hive Guard heavy lists at Adepticon, people were scared they would get a nerf too because of that, but it seems GW ignored them for now .. lets hope they dont get the nerfbat in the next Autumn FAQ

I'd be surprised if they got a nerf. Compared to other armies they aren't insanely powerful. They have an obvious weakness (touch them in combat) and their range is relatively support for a heavy firepower support unit that really wants to deploy behind a wall and stay there.
They are good of course but abusive? I wouldn't have thought so.

The fact they need a strategem makes them safe from a nerf. If they were too good then you'd see lists running 18 of them winning events. At most, people are using 12.

This is true from a logical sense, but lets not forget that we are talking about GW here ..

Flying Hive Tyrants got nerfed because Tournament lists were insanely stacked with them and they were powerful

-> logical thing

Biovores were nerfed despite it not being THAT stacked at tournaments and they werent THAT powerful either

-> not so logical thing

Now we take Hive Guards, who are not that powerful either without a stratagem but will become really powerful with it and they were also heavily stacked in some tournament lists (some had 15 of them) .. now here you could possibly think that they MIGHT be on the radar ...

honestly, with GW you bascally never know what they are going to do next. the only thing that is for sure is that they forget grey knights even exist ..

Grey Knights got a new shiny paintjob... and are now called Custodes. lol.

Biovores were nerfed because people are using them in a way GW didn't envision, which is using their spores to control the enemy movement.

Tyran wrote:
Biovores were nerfed because people are using them in a way GW didn't envision, which is using their spores to control the enemy movement.

Did they say that?

If that was the case, wouldn't they have just removed that, instead of making them weaker at their actual intended role?

They never said anything about them as far as I'm aware, just the points nerf.

Spoletta wrote:

Why do you say that accuracy is his problem? Actually that is one of the few beasts with an innate 3+.

I completely missed that. For whatever reason I've been operating under the assumption that they started at WS: 4+ and got worse from there, so having rerolls available helped to mitigate it.

 FFridge wrote:

Biovores were nerfed despite it not being THAT stacked at tournaments and they werent THAT powerful either

Pre-codex I remember a handful of Biovore spam builds being touted for tournament play, but I imagine they never were especially popular since the monetary cost is so prohibitive.

That said, the cost increase probably has more to do with keeping them in line with the other fire support infantry than anything else. Before, Biovores were the least expensive fire-support option available (2 points less than Pyrovores, 3 points less than Shock Cannon Hive Guard, 12 points less than Impaler Hive Guard, 4 points less than Zoanthropes) with the most universally useful damage type, longest range, and a handy secondary function of area denial with their shots. They were basically a no-brainer add on if you had the points and slots available to include them, while now they need the list to be built with them in mind.

When it comes to running the big melee beasties (haruspex, toxicrene, maleceptor kinda) I don’t think it’s really possible except with Kraken and first turn assaults. You need at least one of them in the enemy gunline or they’ll be too shot up by lascannons to have any real effectiveness. Just having 2-3” of better movement is not nearly enough.

Been toying around with Haruspex. It is a really fun unit. It is overpriced for sure but with some minor tweaks it could be really good. Toxicrine seems almost usable too but I havn't had a chance to try it - Looks to be the next best melle beast that isn't a Swarmlord.

Also - Red Terror? Sucks or not? He can eat custodian biker? Good or no?