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SeanDrake wrote:
Dark Angels have emo/secrets/a hidden love of spikes and that's pretty much it. All the "unique" and terrible stuff has been produced by the torturing of the fluff in the last 2 codexs.

In all honestly DA should have been rolled into the main codex and the real non codex chapter the Black Templars could have had some love.

Ah yes, the truly unique non codex chapter black templars, known for their stand out traits of really hating heretics and psykers plus having a knightly theme. Oh what a unique standout they are in this setting where arguing who hates heretics more and who is more pure is a never ending dick measuring contest, one that hilariously the SoB always end up winning. It's not like we already have a chapter of angry marines and a chapter of super pure holier than thou marines both with their own codice. Oh and it looks like world eaters will eventually get a codex so angry marines who hate psykers will be well represented. Not to mention SoB.

Honestly, at least the lore around having access to forbidden and rare old technology results in a few interesting units and bits of wargear, and the internal divisions allows GW to create a chapter that isn't pigeonholed into a singular archetype mechanically.

Can we not dig up the "should/shouldn't have a Codex" stuff that mods have asked everyone to can in other threads already?

Like, this Codex is coming, like it or hate it.

Well, I'll ask again if anyone has leaked point changes for the codex, or if GW have finally managed to successfully threaten the people they gave previews. Because I think we are at the stage where that's what we need to see if we want to have a good idea what the codex will bring.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:

Well, aside from the whole Fallen thing, Dark Angels are supposed to be anti Xenos, and expert monster hunters..

All marines are anti-xenos. Nothing stands out as 'monster hunter,' any more than it does vehicle hunter, or Nob/Primaris hunter.
Background-wise, Dark Angels don't come to Caliban until after all the Monsters are supposedly gone, so the Legion/Chapter is never in that role.

Actually, much of the pre-Legion knights of Caliban that were fighting monsters were genetically enhanced and accepted into the Chapter as members that then trained the early Dark Angels.

Quick question, did any other Legion or chapter ever accept non marines in as members?

The Alpha Legion.
Or maybe they were just pretending because they needed cannon fodder… but that could have been a cover too, to get the “sole survivor” into a position to infiltrate and influence the real target...

 cuda1179 wrote:
Actually, much of the pre-Legion knights of Caliban that were fighting monsters were genetically enhanced and accepted into the Chapter as members that then trained the early Dark Angels.

Quick question, did any other Legion or chapter ever accept non marines in as members?

Theres many Non-Marines working with the Chapter and considered part of the chapter. Servs for example, in some chapters they are considered brothers that have failed to become space marines, in others they are little more than slaves, etc...

I meant as full on members and equals.

Speaking as an outsider looking in, the Dark Angels codex does seem fairly underwhelming; especially compared to the Blood Angels one which made me think "wow, that's so cool!" basically every other page, nothing in the Dark Angels toolbox excites me and makes me want to put together a Dark Angels army. Maybe people more familiar with the army see things that I don't, but while I think it's possible for the Dark Angels plasma spam to be effective I don't think it's terribly interesting.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Speaking as an outsider looking in, the Dark Angels codex does seem fairly underwhelming; especially compared to the Blood Angels one which made me think "wow, that's so cool!" basically every other page, nothing in the Dark Angels toolbox excites me and makes me want to put together a Dark Angels army. Maybe people more familiar with the army see things that I don't, but while I think it's possible for the Dark Angels plasma spam to be effective I don't think it's terribly interesting.

Doesn't look great to me. Rerolling 1s flat would be relatively balanced compared to certain [faction] tactics in recent times. Having it only when you stand still is quite limiting.
Okay on overwatch you go from 1/6 to slightly under 1/5. Its not setting the world on fire even with stacked plasma.
I guess the reduced morale losses encourages bigger squads - which potentially makes stratagems more efficient - but I am not sure its a massive increase in effectiveness.

I think the thing I don't like about Dark Angels is the increasingly... artificial and forced split into Death/Raven/Green Wing. It makes them look disjointed. I mean fair enough for those who want all terminators, all bikers etc, but meh... not a fan.

I think the contrary, this Codex is forcing us to play with a mix of the three Wings to make the most of our bucks.

Obviously I can be totally wrong and this Codex can end like Codex: GMDK , but I think theres room for tactical depth in this codex.

And I believe, the bigger reason why this Codex isn't as "Wow, cool!" as the BA one are two reasons:
-Lets be honest, it appears to be less powerfull and "different" at first sight.
And thats comes down to the second reason:
-Dark Angels as others have said (Even if I disagree with being rolled back to C:SM), aren't like Blood Angels, with a very strong theme that can translate in a obvious gameplay feeling. Dark Angels aren't as monodimensional as BA. That means they are more similar with Normal space marines because, it translated in them feelling more "boring" and less special. They do White Scars better than White Scars, they have elite Terminators, and they have their normal marines. So they feel to similar to normal space marines because they are at the end of the day, if played as DA and not RW or DW, to use most of their roster to support each other, instead of BA where literally all their special units are based on meele assault in one way or the other, or to support assault.

Is a little like Space Wolves. Yeah they have all their wolfy wolf stuff, but they are expected to play with a mix of meele and shooting even if they are more meele centric, etc... and that can end being pretty similar to normal space marines, if you don't go all aboard with the stronger themed parts of the army. But this really happens with every sub-faction that is tactically flexible instead of mono-build and centered around something to an extreme.

You all have it backwards...

DA had loads of things that made them interesting
-Bike theme
-Terminator theme
-Knightly theme
-Only chapter with heavy bolters and assault cannon on speeders
-Only chapter with squadrons of tornados
-Only chapter with +2 Str Power weapons (Relic Blades)
-Extensive command structure thats very complex
-Legion never really split
-Mortis Dreadnoughts
-Tactical/Strategic Genius
-Better than normal space marines all the other chapters look up to
-Anti -Xenos
-Anti Imperial allies
-(Librarians) Can see the future

There are dozens more themes, wargear, troops, options etc... but they were all taken for vanilla or other chapters, making DA LOOK less special.

In fact the only DA theme remaining is "Having unique chapter stuff made available to everyone" with the most recent being Mortis dreads and company veterans...

To be honest of that list I thing only the "Knightly theme", the "Terminator Theme", the "Extensive Command Structure thats very complex", and "Anti Imperial Allies" are the only true proper DA things.

I'm sorry but random things like some units having special weapon options like blood angels tactical squads having heavy flamers isn't anything I'll say add any kind of theme or substance to a subfaction. You can't say DA are special for being anti-xenos when you have Deathwatch. Heck, you can't say Exorcist are special for being anti-daemon (Those guys that are actually possesed and exorcessed to battle demons) are special for being anti-demon when you have Grey Knights.

And I'm saying this as a Dark Angel player that loves them. I'm not saying they aren't special, or that they don't have their own themes and reasons. I'm saying they are more a revision of the Space Marine style with their own twist (Like Death Guard), than a monobuild subfaction like can be Black Templars or Blood Angels. (Like World Eaters or Thousand Sons). Thats why I play them, because they offer me variety withing the own subfaction and compared with the bigger "father" faction, without forcing me to just play one way or another.

Following the Chaos Marines example, Death Guard are a twist to the Chaos Space Marines. They are this slower, more durable force, with an emphasis on short and mid range shooting. But they can work in a big variety of ways. Plague Marines are probably the most customizable unit of all of the game. In the other hand you have World Eaters, that are Meele Chaos Marines ++, and Thousand Sons, psychic Chaos Marines++. Not saying those two are inferior (Like black templars or blood angels), but they are different at a fundamental level.

I agree Galas, the list is more reasons to have a separate codex.

With all the different options to vanilla they would obviously need a different book if vanilla werent GWs favourites.

Maybe it could have been clearer.

 cuda1179 wrote:
I meant as full on members and equals.

Kor Phaeron in Sons of Horus

This book looks great.

3 elements/ sub factions. Powerful combos and synergy by using multiple. Characters are great.

Not sure of the hate or hype, but to each there own I guess.

In my opinion, who plays competitively at GT's and all. This book LOOKS great, and I am already making a list to put to the test.

Well done GW.

Striking Scorpion review of codex indicated RW bikes are 35pts.....that's 3pts more than index, not cheaper as earlier reported.

 bullyboy wrote:
Striking Scorpion review of codex indicated RW bikes are 35pts.....that's 3pts more than index, not cheaper as earlier reported.

That is what he said, because I even wrote it in the index, but I think he just read off a different unit on accident because I've heard multiple times RW bikes are 7 points cheaper. 25 points I believe, which if not mistaken, puts them in line with space Marines.

 bullyboy wrote:
Striking Scorpion review of codex indicated RW bikes are 35pts.....that's 3pts more than index, not cheaper as earlier reported.

he probably read the number for attack bikes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
miniwargaming review


This may be the best review so far. He's clearly put in the time playing with the new rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
He says bikers down 6 points, black knights down 4 to 46, and Dark Talon down FORTY POINTS

 axisofentropy wrote:

Dark Talon down FORTY POINTS

The one thing to note about this is Hurricane bolters went up two and a half times in points and the dark talon has 2 of them, so in the end it ends up only 28 points cheaper, but still, that's 28 points which is pretty significant.

 cuda1179 wrote:
Actually, much of the pre-Legion knights of Caliban that were fighting monsters were genetically enhanced and accepted into the Chapter as members that then trained the early Dark Angels.

Quick question, did any other Legion or chapter ever accept non marines in as members?

Word Bearers and Luna Wolves.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Kor_Phaeron

I'm pretty sure Maloghurst, Horus' Equery was a non-Geneseeded Legionaire as well.

I'm sure many did, and like the DA they were kept on the recruiting worlds, in charge of training the new Marines and the like. It was only a very few who'd go out onto the Crusades, like those listed.

I for one look forward to the book. I've been playing da since 2nd edition. As long as it's fluffy and has unique combos/rules, and a mono playable deathwing and ravenwing (even if not super competative) I'm happy. If it's as bland as the 4th/5th edition Jervis Johnson abomination codex, well then we are doomed.

So far it looks interesting. In reality 8th editions uniqueness and flavor of each army has to do with character rule bubbles. I'm sure each of our characters will have some cool and unique rules.

The extra shooting buff sitting still, falling back, plasma, etc is great too. Seems pretty unique to me considering the entire combo of them all. Marines are generally always more shooty, and anything that helps that is awesome!

As I already have 6000 points of DA, I'm hesitant to buy much more, but I'm tempted. Standing gun line is solid, but having massed Land speeders zooming around with Character support speeders just seems so fun.

Thinking about it, 15 speeders, 2 Lt. Speeders, and support would be reaaly mobile and hard hitting.

 cuda1179 wrote:
As I already have 6000 points of DA, I'm hesitant to buy much more, but I'm tempted. Standing gun line is solid, but having massed Land speeders zooming around with Character support speeders just seems so fun.

Thinking about it, 15 speeders, 2 Lt. Speeders, and support would be reaaly mobile and hard hitting.

Don't forget to bring one or more whirlwinds! There is nothing more fun than auto hitting with HK missiles an hemlock with stacked -3 to hit!

I think part of the problem why Blood Angels seem so awesome and coherent compared to Dark Angels is that the Blood Angels have mostly just 1 element of aggressive close combat fighting. Death Company and Sanguinary Guard both have same highly aggressive CC combat orientation, and both can be jump pack troops which is a strong theme in Blood Angels that can be woven into regular Assault Marines easily etc.

Dark Angels I feel it is abit harder to weave together the 3 Wings that they have as they're all rather different, and one is just outright in a bad place because Terminators haven't been the best of places for awhile as it is anyway.

GenRifDrake wrote:
I think part of the problem why Blood Angels seem so awesome and coherent compared to Dark Angels is that the Blood Angels have mostly just 1 element of aggressive close combat fighting. Death Company and Sanguinary Guard both have same highly aggressive CC combat orientation, and both can be jump pack troops which is a strong theme in Blood Angels that can be woven into regular Assault Marines easily etc.

Dark Angels I feel it is abit harder to weave together the 3 Wings that they have as they're all rather different, and one is just outright in a bad place because Terminators haven't been the best of places for awhile as it is anyway.

Except it doesn't. The vast majority of Blood Angels builds got shafted hard. People with old-school mechanized Blood Angels of fast Vindicators and such. Dread-heavy lists. Or even more "balanced" BA list along the normal Space Marine armies with a few Devastators, etc.. gain basically nothing. All the new Primaris stuff is actually on purpose walled off from the best BA stuff (in ways it is not for DA).

DA seems to do a much better job of covering the entire book than the BA stratagems and rules, which, as you say, basically boil down to 2-3 unit entries in the BA book, pigeonholing Blood Angels and promoting bland spam like their is no tomorrow. Even Grey Knights seems more diverse than Blood Angels at this point.

 djones520 wrote:


I'm pretty sure Maloghurst, Horus' Equery was a non-Geneseeded Legionaire as well.

Maloghurst was a normal Legionary.

 Marius Xerxes wrote:

Retrogamer0001 wrote:So no Lion?

axisofentropy wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
So no Lion?

Not in 2017.

Pretty much this. The in the Podcast that FLG put up today they mentioned the updated fluff and basically said it heavily hinted at his coming back. Though, he is not in the book.

What hints are you talking about? I've seen the section detailing Luther as well as the Lion hidden within the Rock, but that section makes absoutely no hints at him actually returning. I've seen a lot of people see the part about him being "fully healed and ready to return" and assuming that is new lore specifically hinting at him actually coming back at some stage, when it definitely is not; that sentance is near identical to what was included in the 6th edition Codex. The 6th Edition codex always says that he is hidden in the Rock, Fully healed and ready to return when he's needed. It's no more a hint about anything than it was back then, because it's the same thing - lore for him has not changed at all. The new codex says the same thing about him as the last one did.

Oh cmon now. It's only a matter of time whether we get a Lion model at this point.

 rollawaythestone wrote:
Oh cmon now. It's only a matter of time whether we get a Lion model at this point.

yeah I think a decade from now we'll have most if not all of the primarchs back.