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I dunno, some of those Goliath dudes look like they might try. Or at least the main gun…

Must admit the Basilisk is cool kit. But I want to know what those convoy outriders drive. Plus what sort of cool rides the rogue trader will have access to.

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
Must admit the Basilisk is cool kit. But I want to know what those convoy outriders drive. Plus what sort of cool rides the rogue trader will have access to.

If you're referring to the ones from Abnett's Tanith books, it was supposed to be some kind of quad bike/dune buggy stylized ride with a forward facing fixed weapon.

Can't find it now, but there was mention of the ash waste and vehicles as something they wanted to explore. I'm hoping for the Eye of Selune as a setting too.

Chopstick wrote:
Unless you can regrow lost piece of your body in an instant, wearing Terminator armor, or have a powerful forcefield. A blast from any plasma shot would still leave a big hole in your body. With the current N17 version, Ganger can now have forcefield, servo skull, pet, which is a league better than any IG guardmen can have. They can have actual useful gear, not bling like gold-plate DE (which is a terrible/mediocre gun IRL)

Wrong. You're assuming the plasma gun would magically hit the target. Unless the ganger is lying in ambush, first attempt of drawing the gun will end with SM sensors identifying it as biggest threat, and SM casually aiming at ganger's head and blowing it up before the target even has time to blink. Astartes are supposed to be inhumanly fast and accurate (sadly, a lot of BL authors forgets that part, with especially ludicrous example found in that recent Phil Kelly's execrable fanfiction-of-a-series that has Tau of all things being Astartes' equals in close quarters) and they will always aim and shoot faster than any ganger, with properly maintained and zeroed gun at that. Even if SM had a laspistol, or hell, even a rock, I'd bet on him vs any ganger any time.

You're also assuming that gang plasma guns are equal to military ones, instead of being flashy junk that yes, will penetrate a wall or enemy ganger, but might just splash off SM pauldron. After all, if you don't need that killing power 95% of the time, why waste rare ammo and wear out mechanisms you can't even start to think how to repair? In 40K, military plasma has two settings, and I'd bet Necromundan guns are dialed down to far below even 'normal' tabletop setting only having superficially the same number because gang wars use much more granular system. They should also be weaker because, frankly speaking, they are tiny compared to military models so unless Necromunda somehow magically produces stuff well beyond things SM and IG have, their guns will simply not have same stopping power anyway...

 Haighus wrote:
Basically, I think only juves would be equivalent to conscripts, and most gangers would be equivalent to guardsmen (with minimal additional training). I doubt many would be better than that.

Juves? Try veteran gangers. Seriously, unlike what Hollywood would like to tell you, conscripts get proper gun training, with properly maintained brand new (or at least refurbished) guns that expert will show them how to zero in and teach how to shoot - and lasgun will be inherently far easier to aim than any stub crap gangers use. It's difference between being taught by master and being self-taught - the difference in speed and quality of learned skills will be so big it's not even funny.

It is well illustrated in say Cain books - while professional PDF would effortlessly beat gangers, IG troopers effortlessly beat PDF every time they fight them in Cain stories, without exception. Even when said PDF has inhuman boosts from Chaos magic or genestealer mutations. I agree with Galas, memeing is just dumb seeing IG tithes are supposed to be 10% of the best human material PDF has. IG is equivalent of special forces in Earth's terms, with IG veterans being on the level of SAS or Alfa (in fact, tithe of best human intake is how Soviet Spetsnaz was recruited during the Cold War). Compare them to malnourished gangers living in toxic environment and tell me they even remotely comparable with a straight face.

Um...ok
Remotely comparable.
This is my straight face. :|

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
Um...ok

Yawn. Let's see at the scenario you postulate in BL book, then? In The Traitor's Hand, Cain, a protagonist veteran noted to be one of the best human duelists in the Imperium, Jurgen, a veteran trooper (who book before dispatched and killed multiple orks alone, on his own, and faced literally every single threat a galaxy has to offer), and a squad of veteran troopers from Valhallan regiment face a single Chaos Marine (who is weakened by multiple wounds and a blank suppressing his boons). And guess what, that single CSM nearly paints the walls with them as none of them can get a single telling shot in before CSM reaches them and it takes Cain fighting really hard, defensively, to buy a few moments for Jurgen to get a melta shot into CSM back, killing him. Had it been someone of even slightly smaller skill, the CSM would have won.

So, yeah, unless you double down on being wrong and postulate something as laughable as gangers being better than veteran commissar, yeah, we dismissed that claim

In fact, The Traitor's Hand has even better example for you. In the end of the book, five CSM goes into hive-like structure defended by hundreds of slaaneshi cultists and PDF troopers. With everything - psykers, plasma guns, military weapons, the whole shebang. CSM don't care and simply slaughter them all, ambushes and heavy weapons notwithstanding, losing only two CSM, and the cultists manage to win only because a handful of remaining ones finally finished ritual summoning daemon princess of slaanesh (who then proceeds to kill remaining CSM). So, yeah. Care to present anything supporting uber-gangers fantasies, either from RL or 40K canon?

Then again, 5 CSM get ambushed by the Tanith and a distraction

It is as if power level in Warhammer 40k is highly inconsistent and change from author to author... with even good authors that respect the lore having different visions on that front..

 Galas wrote:
It is as if power level in Warhammer 40k is highly inconsistent and change from author to author... with even good authors that respect the lore having different visions on that front..

That doesn't make it impossible to draw a reasonable conclusion from the lore taken as a whole, outliers included, and while I wouldn't cite the Cain novels which are supposed to be the recalled memoirs of a notoriously dishonest egotist, broadly speaking the idea that the vast majority of hive gangers would be PDF(in their own territory) or sub-PDF(anywhere else) quality troops is entirely reasonable. The idea that a Space Marine would handily best even a large number of PDF or sub-PDF quality troops is similarly uncontroversial. Giving all of those troops big flashy guns and refractors would certainly increase their chances in a strictly "maybe they roll a 6 and take the Marine/Guardsman's head off before they can react" kind of way, but having a plasmagun isn't much use if you get a hole punched through your chest as soon as you try to fire it.

As someone mentioned though, the gangs on Necromunda at least, and likely gangs in other large hive worlds, are not gangs in the traditional sense of the word, but rather deniable paramilitary forces that operate in a kind of permanent proxy insurgency beneath the hive. Occasionally they are used to attack a rival house directly, a notorious example being the Delaque attack on the Orlocks causing intervention from House Helmawr before a true war broke out.

Therefore a better comparison would be the insurgencies of today, and examples like the Indochina wars against the French, the Vietnam war, the Afghanistan wars (against the Soviets especially), Chechen war, the IRA (this one is fringe, but I'm not getting into the politics), various other insurgencies such as the successful campaigns in Latin America, the resistance forces across occupied Europe in WWII, notably the Yugoslavs, and various other proxy wars.

Most of these are characterised by a powerful invader/occupier being slowed or stymied (or in some cases, full-on defeated) by a nominally weak force covertly equipped (and sometimes trained) by another foreign power. They can tie up considerable resources, and can have surprisingly effective troops in some circumstances.

The gangs of Necromunda are similar- they are equipped by massive industrial conglomerates, and in a constant proxy war beneath the hive.

Now, without training these units are often subpar, but the Chechen war is a good example of what happens when poorly trained conscripts face determined resistance by effective insurgents, even with an equipment advantage on behalf of the conscripts- a lot of casualties.

Of course, if insurgents stand and fight in a conventional battle, they tend to get mulched, but that is kind of the point of asymmetrical warfare- to minimise the strengths of a more powerful enemy.

Therefore, I rest my case that with a minimal amount of induction training (similar to other conscripted recruits), gangers would be above regular conscripts, and generally equivalent to guardsmen (although less disciplined). They would make excellent light infantry, especially in dense terrain, and would be most suited to asymmetrical warfare in support of the main forces. This is supported by GW, who made a datasheet for recruited Armageddon gangers that basically had them as less disciplined guardsmen, if I remember correctly.

This is based upon the assumption that conscripts get some training. Based on the experiences of real-world conscripts in the World Wars, they did, it was just less than regulars.

As for Marines, I am inclined to go with the Guilliman quote:
"I would rather a hundred Marines than a thousand other men."

I take this as Marines roughly being equivalent to ten humans each, but this is also at a strategic level, not just a tactical one. 100 Marines can choose where to fight and what enemy to target in a way few human forces can even come close to, so they have a massive force multiplier in their strategic mobility.

Wowwww!!!!!!!!

how many news!!!!!!

The Return of Kill-Team doesn't just bring the good (actual news and rumors!), but...everything else too.

Grin and bear it baby!

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Galas wrote:
It is as if power level in Warhammer 40k is highly inconsistent and change from author to author... with even good authors that respect the lore having different visions on that front..

That doesn't make it impossible to draw a reasonable conclusion from the lore taken as a whole, outliers included, and while I wouldn't cite the Cain novels which are supposed to be the recalled memoirs of a notoriously dishonest egotist, broadly speaking the idea that the vast majority of hive gangers would be PDF(in their own territory) or sub-PDF(anywhere else) quality troops is entirely reasonable. The idea that a Space Marine would handily best even a large number of PDF or sub-PDF quality troops is similarly uncontroversial. Giving all of those troops big flashy guns and refractors would certainly increase their chances in a strictly "maybe they roll a 6 and take the Marine/Guardsman's head off before they can react" kind of way, but having a plasmagun isn't much use if you get a hole punched through your chest as soon as you try to fire it.

Oh yeah, I agree, and I believe that everybody that knows his lore and hasn't just read 4chan wiki would agree. But is when you enter in the details that everybody disagree. All agree that a Space Marine is much superior than a normal human (Unless you are one of those "thats just imperial propaganda space marine don't even exist" kind of guy), but then you compare a Space Marihe with a veteran Karskrin with a plasma... or a Space Marine with an Aspect Warrior, and is when things start to get muddy.

And I realise this is offtopic, sorry.

 Mysterio wrote:
The Return of Kill-Team doesn't just bring the good (actual news and rumors!), but...everything else too.

Grin and bear it baby!

This is my fault for suggesting that you could use AM kill team rules to represent a Necromunda gang in kill team.
Funny that when playing kill team I have been using Tau, when people assumed I'd play guard ( using old Necromunda figures) which get peppered throughout my guard army anyway. As can been seen in my gallery.

On the subject of the Cain novels. I love them. I think anyone who plays IG love the Cain novels, but they are comedy!

So it looks like the preorder for AOS 2.0 is going up on the 16th, which I'm guessing means 2 weeks of preorders and a release on the 30th. I have an inkling KT will go on preorder on the 30th, considering we'll be seeing previews in 2ish weeks.

 Sabotage! wrote:
So it looks like the preorder for AOS 2.0 is going up on the 16th, which I'm guessing means 2 weeks of preorders and a release on the 30th. I have an inkling KT will go on preorder on the 30th, considering we'll be seeing previews in 2ish weeks.

From previously in this thread...

 Ghaz wrote:
Except we have the Nighthaunt battletome which GW has already stated as coming out this month...

Spoiler:

 Haighus wrote:
As someone mentioned though, the gangs on Necromunda at least, and likely gangs in other large hive worlds, are not gangs in the traditional sense of the word, but rather deniable paramilitary forces that operate in a kind of permanent proxy insurgency beneath the hive. Occasionally they are used to attack a rival house directly, a notorious example being the Delaque attack on the Orlocks causing intervention from House Helmawr before a true war broke out.

This. To say the average guardsman could best the average Necromundan Ganger...?

Eh... maybe? But keep this in mind:

Gangers can get carapace armor.
Gangers have access to nearly every weapon that the guard has, short of vehicles.
Gangers can actually get weapons the guardsman CAN'T.
Gangers aren't street hoodlums, as said- they're pretty much 'house militia'.
A guardsman may be trained, but Gangers have been fighting and surviving gang wars since childhood

Overall, if you're going to say a Necromunda ganger can't compete on par with anything in the 40k universe- remember that we have a basis to compare: Genestealer Cults and Chaos Cults. If any of those things can kill a Space Marine or Guardsman (they can), then a ganger certainly can.

Now, would gangers be ideal to use as a regimented 'hold the line' force? Not really, that'd take training. But if you wanted a guerilla-style unit that excels in close quarters urban warfare and ambush attacks? They'd be ideal recruits.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Sabotage! wrote:
So it looks like the preorder for AOS 2.0 is going up on the 16th, which I'm guessing means 2 weeks of preorders and a release on the 30th. I have an inkling KT will go on preorder on the 30th, considering we'll be seeing previews in 2ish weeks.

From previously in this thread...

 Ghaz wrote:
Except we have the Nighthaunt battletome which GW has already stated as coming out this month...

Spoiler:

I think you may have misread my post. I don't see how Nighthaunt coming out this month has anything to do with a preorder for KT going up the last weekend of the month (indicating a July release). Nighthaunt could very well also be released on the same day AOS 2.0 is.

GW has already announced what is going to be released on AoS 2nd ed release weekend:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/06/05/soul-wars-announced/

No Nighthaunt battletome.

 Sabotage! wrote:

I think you may have misread my post. I don't see how Nighthaunt coming out this month has anything to do with a preorder for KT going up the last weekend of the month (indicating a July release). Nighthaunt could very well also be released on the same day AOS 2.0 is.

Imagine the logistical nightmare of KT preorder on the same day as AOS release.... not to mention the fact that if we look at dark imperium, it will sellout during the weekend and more stock will have to be ordered on the day, So id expect they wont do preorders for that weekend.

Maybe first two weekends of july are AOS focused and then next two are KT. Id expect they want to do a proper release for KT, not just a forgebane style "this is the box, buy it and away you go"

Maybe k kill team is the filler during the start of Aos 2.0 pre-orders and release. July probably is filled to the brim with ghosts and gold-clad wizards

Don't worry, they also come with the new church push fit terrain.

Is the new 40K terrain pushfit?

They seem to follow the ruin push fit terrain GW had been doing lately : destroyed wall + cardboard mat. This one had an upper level on one of the full wall, so that's new.

Or maybe I'm wrong.

I really hope that this time we can get all the terrain sprues without buying the stupid mat.

Bloodmaster wrote:
Maybe k kill team is the filler during the start of Aos 2.0 pre-orders and release. July probably is filled to the brim with ghosts and gold-clad wizards

Possible, but that means its got to be up for preorder on the same day as AOS, the 16th, which means it would be announced next sunday... i don't see that happening, but its entirely possible.

The reason i dont think itll be june is because of the point i made about GW working in financial year halves not quarters... doesnt make sense to buff what is likely an already awesome half.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

Gangers aren't street hoodlums, as said- they're pretty much 'house militia'.

I'm not seeing how this is some huge earth-shattering difference. A militiaman, a veteran street thug, a "weekend warrior" PDF soldier, none stack up against trained, professional soldiers, who are the top 10% of those groups tithed away and given extensive additional training, reliable equipment, and unless they're a fresh founding experience fighting genuine existential horrors. A Space Marine is the equivalent of the top 1% of the latter group plus ancient genetic science, powered armour, terror weaponry, and potentially centuries of experience.

Nobody has argued it is physically impossible for a ganger to beat a guardsman or a marine, a plasmagun is to one degree or another a plasmagun, but you have to be in a position to attack your enemy and then hit them with it for that to matter. You have to be able to aim and fire in the heat of the moment against a squad of trained killers or a genetically engineered posthuman monster who can practically hear you sweating. You have to overcome the propaganda you've been fed since birth that paints the guard are the best of the best blessed by the Emperor and marines as His literal invincible angels of vengeance. And you have to hope that your shonky, unblessed, "quietly diverted by the House" fancypants gun actually, you know, fires.

I'm sure it's possible to reach a point where a ganger has collected enough fancy shiny gear to make them a genuine threat, but that's not the norm, that's the kind of level for special named characters not House Militia Mook 17267156267 humping around a plasmagun for which "man-portable" is a generous description, which hasn't been blessed by a techpriest(ie, properly maintained) in years, and who people are proposing go up against proper soldiers or superhumans. Sure, Mook 17267156267 could get in a lucky shot and kill even a Chapter Master, but it's orders of magnitude more likely they would misfire and get shot in the head, miss their shot and get shot in the head, or never even get a chance to fire at all because they were shot in the head before they even saw their enemy.

In 40K they don't have the headroom to represent that kind of distinction, a Conscript with a plasmagun isn't much different than a Guardsman with a plasmagun or even a Marine with a plasmagun, but with systems like Necromunda and Kill Team/Rogue Trader they actually do have the opportunity to present the full range of "not superheavy tanks and giant daemonic walking death robots" infantry combat and it always puzzles me why people don't want them to.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

Gangers aren't street hoodlums, as said- they're pretty much 'house militia'.

I'm not seeing how this is some huge earth-shattering difference. A militiaman, a veteran street thug, a "weekend warrior" PDF soldier, none stack up against trained, professional soldiers, who are the top 10% of those groups tithed away and given extensive additional training, reliable equipment, and unless they're a fresh founding experience fighting genuine existential horrors. A Space Marine is the equivalent of the top 1% of the latter group plus ancient genetic science, powered armour, terror weaponry, and potentially centuries of experience.

Because you’re arguing from a perspective where skill is a linear thing that can always be pushed upwards with dramatic results, and others are viewing it as a diminishing returns matter. This is a sticky issue even in the 40k fiction itself where some material presents it as if a marine has attained level 70 through RPG style grinding and lowly mortals have a level 40 cap, and others present it as he just has pretty standard top end skill mixed with enhanced reflexes and strength.

Arguably there’s little to no difference between most Marines and a Schola graduate beyond their augments.

In the next month (at the end of the june WD) nothing about kill team :(

More AoS and blood bowl.