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 frozenwastes wrote:
The more I look at the starter contents including terrain, the more I think this might be a pretty straightforward attempt to get the needed return on capital on the new terrain like what shadow war was for sector mechanicus terrain. It worked then, so this is the same sort of product model extended out into a multi-product range.

"Have some burna boys and a crane you likely could have never been convinced to buy together if it wasn't for these cardboard counters and some cards we bundled it with! Don't worry, we'll also sell you some Primaris marines bundled with some pipes or something later on too!"

And then the mechanicus faction focus having 4 units out of 2 kits. If that holds than this game is really going to be limited in its possibilities. Which I guess is what you want if the real goal is to fund the development of new terrain for 40k. If Orks end up with only 4 units (burna, lootas as they share the same kit and 2 others?) then i think it'll be a pretty clear sign that it's not worth the development time needed to make the stats and possible upgrade paths for all the other possible ork options if 4 will do. The return on investment for anything other than narrow subsets of each range just isn't there if the real goal is to sell sector mechanicus add on terrain like the crane and to fund the new terrain.

I was largely excited for a game like this, but when I saw the crane bundled with the orks and then only 4 units of the mechanicus covered in their faction focus, I became more suspicious of this as a cash grab to fund new 40k terrain.

Of course it is some kind of cash grab, but more elaborated than SWA was - and it was huuuge succes. This time they came prepared. Constantly repeating - this is a game system that will be supperted. We didn't hear that during SWA times. GW is learning from FFG - for me they are not as greedy as FFG. Cards in Necro are wayyy optional. We often tend to game without it and it is still fun. Cards in KT may have more impact on the game but we will see. On the other way - GW way, after year or so we will see repacked cards only for this game.

Shame we did not receive HQ option here, i was hoping for skitarii, but this is like DLC game - now you get basic rules and some new terrain. Announced Rogue Trader gives hope for different kind of battles (spaceship) and different kind of troops - all those missing for inquisition or demons - look at the figs, doesn't it hint anything? I'm pretty sure that future releases will add some layers for the game. HQ, maybe walkers or vehicles.

Thommy H wrote:

 Fango wrote:


Still, it doesn't seem to fit as a location expansion for this launch...

The Community article specifically gives the interior of a starship as an example of a killzone.

Still not buying it's a Killzone expansion.... Wouldn't the book say "Killzone: Spaceship" or some such?



Rogue Trader has to be a big box game, or I'll eat my shorts. *starts looking at shorts and wondering how the feth to choke them down*

 Fango wrote:

Thommy H wrote:

 Fango wrote:


Still, it doesn't seem to fit as a location expansion for this launch...

The Community article specifically gives the interior of a starship as an example of a killzone.

Still not buying it's a Killzone expansion.... Wouldn't the book say "Killzone: Spaceship" or some such?



Rogue Trader has to be a big box game, or I'll eat my shorts. *starts looking at shorts and wondering how the feth to choke them down*

It is definitely a big boxed game, but it also almost certainly contains a new killzone. Look at the core starter box- that also contains a killzone.

 Fango wrote:

Thommy H wrote:

 Fango wrote:


Still, it doesn't seem to fit as a location expansion for this launch...

The Community article specifically gives the interior of a starship as an example of a killzone.

Still not buying it's a Killzone expansion.... Wouldn't the book say "Killzone: Spaceship" or some such?



Rogue Trader has to be a big box game, or I'll eat my shorts. *starts looking at shorts and wondering how the feth to choke them down*

One plausible explanation is that it's an expansion for "interior" games (either generally or spaceship-centric). It could warrant expansion status over regular killzone status due to the extra rules it would need to contain (covering things like doors, hatches,ventilation, locking/unlocking, on-board loot, etc.)

The slew of Nurgle figs could potentially be NPC models and could set the table for a single player mode, or a multiplayer mode where opponents also have to contend with NPC threats. Those rules would also take up space and further explain why it's packaged as a big expansion and not a killzone pack.

 Haighus wrote:

Spoiler:

 Fango wrote:

Thommy H wrote:

 Fango wrote:


Still, it doesn't seem to fit as a location expansion for this launch...

The Community article specifically gives the interior of a starship as an example of a killzone.

Still not buying it's a Killzone expansion.... Wouldn't the book say "Killzone: Spaceship" or some such?



Rogue Trader has to be a big box game, or I'll eat my shorts. *starts looking at shorts and wondering how the feth to choke them down*

It is definitely a big boxed game, but it also almost certainly contains a new killzone. Look at the core starter box- that also contains a killzone.

Conceded. Expansion for Kill Team, most likely introducing a new Killzone.

The theme of the game just doesn't fit the two-player covert op thing, in my opinion....it looks very different from the starter set, which is two fairly equal faction teams fighting over a specific bit of terrain...RT seems more like a Warhammer Quest in space...or that Assassinorum game...a strike team vs a horde of chaos gribblies, etc...it seems like they initially developed it as a standalone game (to hit that Nostalgia button again) and then decided to try to shoehorn it into this Kill Team product line (which maybe was a good decision, since they are flooding their own market with so many different game choices, it's hard to keep up). Still, none of that really matters, since I'm likely going to buy it all anyway.

W1ntermute wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
That preview seems to confirm what I feared: that you just have the options available to the squads in 40K. No fun things like Infiltrators with arquebuses allowed. Boring.

No model. No rule.

You shouldn't be surprised.

First picture in Community's post show a guy with arquebus, so I would say it will be possible. We will know soon.

This was about mixing bits between the kits, e.g. Ranger weapons for Sicarans.

 Fango wrote:


Conceded. Expansion for Kill Team, most likely introducing a new Killzone.

The theme of the game just doesn't fit the two-player covert op thing, in my opinion....it looks very different from the starter set, which is two fairly equal faction teams fighting over a specific bit of terrain...RT seems more like a Warhammer Quest in space...or that Assassinorum game...a strike team vs a horde of chaos gribblies, etc...it seems like they initially developed it as a standalone game (to hit that Nostalgia button again) and then decided to try to shoehorn it into this Kill Team product line (which maybe was a good decision, since they are flooding their own market with so many different game choices, it's hard to keep up). Still, none of that really matters, since I'm likely going to buy it all anyway.

This is true. I think they will use the same basic ruleset, but expand into a different variety of killteam games. So we will get the easy elite team vs elite team to start with, and then Rogue Trader will add the elite team vs faceless goons. If you look at all the characters contained in the box, only one of them is a "major" character, and that is the likely Rogue Trader herself. The others correspond to the kind of characters already included in the first release- sergeant-level characters. A death cult assassin is still a low-level character, and the officer, medic and mech just as much so. It may well expand the narrative components as well- GW have been explicit that Kill Team will feature Matched Play, Narrative Play and Open Play, in the same vein as their core games.

This does build upon the roots of Kill Team of an elite team infiltrating a horde of chaff before the alarm is raised.

 Fango wrote:

Thommy H wrote:

 Fango wrote:


Still, it doesn't seem to fit as a location expansion for this launch...

The Community article specifically gives the interior of a starship as an example of a killzone.

Still not buying it's a Killzone expansion.... Wouldn't the book say "Killzone: Spaceship" or some such?

I'm only going by what the article says. And the pdf FAQ. Rogue Trader is a Kill Team expansion. Probably more than a Killzone, but an expansion nonetheless. I mean, they've explicitly stated that it is. I don't know what else there is to say.

Thommy H wrote:

 Fango wrote:

Thommy H wrote:

 Fango wrote:


Still, it doesn't seem to fit as a location expansion for this launch...

The Community article specifically gives the interior of a starship as an example of a killzone.

Still not buying it's a Killzone expansion.... Wouldn't the book say "Killzone: Spaceship" or some such?

I'm only going by what the article says. And the pdf FAQ. Rogue Trader is a Kill Team expansion. Probably more than a Killzone, but an expansion nonetheless. I mean, they've explicitly stated that it is. I don't know what else there is to say.

Oh no, I'm convinced it is an expansion for Killteam...the photos are evidence enough of that. See my last response about 3 posts up.

 Crimson wrote:

W1ntermute wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
That preview seems to confirm what I feared: that you just have the options available to the squads in 40K. No fun things like Infiltrators with arquebuses allowed. Boring.

No model. No rule.

You shouldn't be surprised.

First picture in Community's post show a guy with arquebus, so I would say it will be possible. We will know soon.

This was about mixing bits between the kits, e.g. Ranger weapons for Sicarans.

Aw, right. I don't think GW will allow this kind of voodoo. People would starting ask about it in WH40K.

W1ntermute wrote:
Aw, right. I don't think GW will allow this kind of voodoo. People would starting ask about it in WH40K.

They are different games. Kill Team is about a small group of dude(ttes) on a mission. I can totally see mixing weapons because they are one big unit even if the minis have different statlines. On the other hand GW might have segregated the units because they C&Ped from Indixes or Codexes. If you play anything but Matched, I doubt your friends will be upset. If they are, time to get new friends.

 Chairman Aeon wrote:

W1ntermute wrote:
Aw, right. I don't think GW will allow this kind of voodoo. People would starting ask about it in WH40K.

They are different games. Kill Team is about a small group of dude(ttes) on a mission. I can totally see mixing weapons because they are one big unit even if the minis have different statlines. On the other hand GW might have segregated the units because they C&Ped from Indixes or Codexes. If you play anything but Matched, I doubt your friends will be upset. If they are, time to get new friends.

This is the thing though(and this reply also goes out to all the "lul, houserule neeeewwwwwwb" numpties): if folk want a 40K-set skirmish game they have to convince people to play or use only with a regular group of actual friends who play(which not everyone has), we already had that. We have multiple thats, in fact. The single, sole, solitary appeal of a GW-produced 40K set skirmish game(for people who want variety and customisation) is that it's "official" and "supported", meaning no feet-dragging from the folk who need stuff spoonfed to them and no expenditure of effort convincing people to give it a try.

If the GW-produced game doesn't allow you a solid range of options without having to houserule it, it ceases to have any point(for people who want variety and customisation).

If you're part of the target market for KT, great, wonderful, have at it, enjoy, but merely expressing disappointment that those of us who evidently aren't part of it are not is not "complaining" or "entitlement" or whatever buzzwordy nonsense is the go-to this week.

 Chairman Aeon wrote:


They are different games. Kill Team is about a small group of dude(ttes) on a mission. I can totally see mixing weapons because they are one big unit even if the minis have different statlines. On the other hand GW might have segregated the units because they C&Ped from Indixes or Codexes. If you play anything but Matched, I doubt your friends will be upset. If they are, time to get new friends.

A lot of gamers don't have the luxury of playing with friends. When your gaming is pick up games in clubs or stores, or tournaments, house rules are usually not an option.


It seems odd that GW wouldn't cram as much customization as possible into a game like this, but who knows, maybe it will come in an expanded campaign book later.

W1ntermute wrote:
Of course it is some kind of cash grab, but more elaborated than SWA was - and it was huuuge succes. This time they came prepared. Constantly repeating - this is a game system that will be supperted. We didn't hear that during SWA times. GW is learning from FFG - for me they are not as greedy as FFG.

Well said and excellent point. This is definitely not just a one-and-done like SWA. And if we look at the contents description of the Ork starter, it doesn't mentioned any universal cards in there. So it doesn't look like they are trying to make people do cross faction purchases to get rules.

Shame we did not receive HQ option here, i was hoping for skitarii, but this is like DLC game - now you get basic rules and some new terrain. Announced Rogue Trader gives hope for different kind of battles (spaceship) and different kind of troops - all those missing for inquisition or demons - look at the figs, doesn't it hint anything? I'm pretty sure that future releases will add some layers for the game. HQ, maybe walkers or vehicles.

The Rogue Trader thing interests me way more than what we've seen so far because it's actually something different. It's not just repackaging burnas with a crane and some cardboard. I don't think there's any chance Shadespire would have taken off around here if the miniatures were just an existing kit or half an existing kit or something. If Steelheart's Champions were an easy to build retributor, liberator and liberator prime and the khorne guys were just starter set blood reavers, for example.

I get that it's a positive to open up with existing kits to allow more people to play, but I think the real interesting stuff is yet to come.

What kind of customization/kit-bashing are people looking for? Wych Cult Weapons on Kabalite Warriors? Spinefists on Hormagaunts? Generally you’re getting an inferior unit to Wyches or Termagants with their typical loadout. As far as Imperial armies are concerned, aren’t the weapons more important to distinguish between units? I’m not sure I could tell the difference at a glance if it was an Assault or Tactical Marine carrying a Bolter.

 Sinful Hero wrote:
What kind of customization/kit-bashing are people looking for? Wych Cult Weapons on Kabalite Warriors? Spinefists on Hormagaunts? Generally you’re getting an inferior unit to Wyches or Termagants with their typical loadout. As far as Imperial armies are concerned, aren’t the weapons more important to distinguish between units? I’m not sure I could tell the difference at a glance if it was an Assault or Tactical Marine carrying a Bolter.

Just have a list of equipment available for the faction and let players freely equip their models. A jump pack marine with a bolter, a Sicaran Infiltrator with a arquebus or a Ranger Alpha with a stubcarbine. It is really not about effectiveness, it is about freedom to customise.

Yeah I would've expected more support for kitbashes and conversions. The Nurglers and RT side from RT are totally outlandish - if there're no rules for heavy customisation those unit types in the box will be extremly limited. Namely to the sculpts in the box. That'd be a shame. As are teams without a ton of additional units like the HoR rules provide. Does that make sense? I'm half asleep here

PS: Still hoping for this to get Shadespire/EtB/BB/Necro gangs like bespoke sculpts with a lot of character. A few more boxed sets with unique teams/archetypes would be ok, too, but less cool.

 Yodhrin wrote:
If the GW-produced game doesn't allow you a solid range of options without having to houserule it, it ceases to have any point(for people who want variety and customisation).

As someone who is totally open to house ruling and has a local group of regulars who are very open to trying stupid things, I still want variety and options without the need to houserule it. And I want those options playtested. It means the designer actually did their work to make a game with a broader appeal and that I as a customer don't have to do their job for them.

I first thought the skill level trees were great, but now that I see them combined with such a tiny subset of the mechanicus range and things like the ork starter being a burna boys sprue, I'm beginning to think that there will be very, very few options in this game.

The community article mentioned open and narrative play, but I'm not seeing the foundation for it. Those approaches work really well in Age of Sigmar and 40k precisely because of the variety and options available. If I have to houserule in units from the larger 40k universe then again, I'm doing work I'd want the designer to have done.

I'm really not sure they'll live up the potential of a 40k skirmish game for open and narrative play with this game. It looks so locked down and options light. A skill that gives a model a bonus when using a weapon that automatically hits is totally pointless for a faction that has no flamers. I think all the customization through these skill trees might be pretty illusory once you combine it with the limited options in having 4 unit types to choose from. Nothing like having to waste a level on wounding better with a flamer to turn a skitarii into a sapper or saboteur.

Chopstick wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Chopstick wrote:
No electro priest? Thought GW really want people to buy that kit in 8th by nerfing Rustalker to the ground =]

Of course there's no Electropriests. What about them makes you think "covert ops"?

They did, in fact, enjoy doing covert ops everyday. against each other. So I think they are more than capaple.

Spoiler:

You could also make the argument that they're nothing more than politicians, based upon your reading of it.

In any regards: Skitarii make up Kill-Teams. You jerks demanded us as part of your Codex, deal with the results.

 Crimson wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
What kind of customization/kit-bashing are people looking for? Wych Cult Weapons on Kabalite Warriors? Spinefists on Hormagaunts? Generally you’re getting an inferior unit to Wyches or Termagants with their typical loadout. As far as Imperial armies are concerned, aren’t the weapons more important to distinguish between units? I’m not sure I could tell the difference at a glance if it was an Assault or Tactical Marine carrying a Bolter.

Just have a list of equipment available for the faction and let players freely equip their models. A jump pack marine with a bolter, a Sicaran Infiltrator with a arquebus or a Ranger Alpha with a stubcarbine. It is really not about effectiveness, it is about freedom to customise.

This is the Imperium of Man! We don't do that customization stuff. Get in your place and do as you are told!

Removed by insaniak. Please stick to the topic.

???

The amount of work it takes to launch a balanced, brand new game with 16 armies is staggering, of course every unit isnt going to be included at launch.

I wish people would limit themselves to one complainy post and then go find something else to do

Do not talk to the Sock Puppets!

Just report them to whoever the hell is running this place - double quick!

Meanwhile, yes, I'm looking forward to Kill Team.

It will mean I'll finally have a use for all these odd bits, bobs and random models I've collected over all of the these many, many years.

actually very very interested in this, just hoping to Gawd I dont have to use primaris as the astartes, I loathe them.

I'm OK with using them too - won't take many, and they'll look impressive compared to all the normal sized minis out there.

Nice and tall, like marines are supposed to be!

 Sinful Hero wrote:
What kind of customization/kit-bashing are people looking for? Wych Cult Weapons on Kabalite Warriors? Spinefists on Hormagaunts? Generally you’re getting an inferior unit to Wyches or Termagants with their typical loadout. As far as Imperial armies are concerned, aren’t the weapons more important to distinguish between units? I’m not sure I could tell the difference at a glance if it was an Assault or Tactical Marine carrying a Bolter.

Personally, I'd be looking for something akin to the old Necromunda Trading Post, where pretty much anything goes. When you're only taking half a dozen models rather than full units, it doesn't actually much matter whether that Marine is a Tactical Marine or an Assault Marine. He's a Marine, in a kill team.

W1ntermute wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
That preview seems to confirm what I feared: that you just have the options available to the squads in 40K. No fun things like Infiltrators with arquebuses allowed. Boring.

No model. No rule.

You shouldn't be surprised.

First picture in Community's post show a guy with arquebus, so I would say it will be possible. We will know soon.

Yes. A Ranger with an arquebus. That's part of the kit. Crimson said an Infiltrator with an arquebus. Did you not follow what we were talking about?

 Fango wrote:
... specifically, the 22"x30" boards with 3D terrain...

Yeah, let's talk about those.

Comments come up at this sight often (and I participate at times) that there are numerous companies out their making proprietary items for their games so that they don't have to use 'generic' components. FFG does it with dice, and then went the whole hog with cards and measuring sticks and whatnot, and they're not alone here.

This 22"x30" board size is really peculiar. It's not quite 2 feet by not quite 3 feet, and that strikes me as incredibly intentional, and not for in-game reasons. It seems like GW have seen the range of other games out there, and the range of mats out there, seen that they stem from 6x4, 4x4, 3x3 and even 2x2 and consciously decided to make their table-size (and thus all related products) just slightly different so that they're the only ones making mats in that awkward size.

It's 32mm bases all over again...

 Kanluwen wrote:

You could also make the argument that they're nothing more than politicians, based upon your reading of it.

In any regards: Skitarii make up Kill-Teams. You jerks demanded us as part of your Codex, deal with the results.

Then why they didn't call it Kill team focus : Skitarii ? Rule writer clearly do not read the newest fluff in the book, and also thought topless dude in skirt are not suitable for Covert ops, which is proven wrong.

I'm not a fan of these topless 40k stormcast, but include them in the team would help GW sell more electro-priest sitting in the warehouse, since they really really want people to buy them when 8th start. Remember they said each kill team have 1-6 unit choice, give the team 2 more units wouldn't hurt. Their loss, not mine

Of course, you guys are all making assumptions about what the rules actually allow you to use/do. We don't know what equipment options are available to the Skitarii. For all we know, you can make an Infiltrator with an arquebus.