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 insaniak wrote:

Also, I totally want to see 'taser goats' as an option, now...

Seconded. I'd buy that model. Models. Army. Someone make this happen.

Oh yeah, I'm excited about Kill team too.

 insaniak wrote:

 ekwatts wrote:

It drives me mad. GW release a product. I look at it and go either "Eh, not for me, really" or "Ooh! Shiny!". And that's it. Sometimes I'm quite enthusiastic about something and think "Oh, I might post about that on Reddit/Dakka/etc" and am greeted with just... whining. Whine, whine, whine.

The funny thing about that is that since the release of 8th edition, most of the online discussion about GW's releases has been overwhelmingly positive. Yes, there have been complaints from some people, as there always will be... but the turnaround from where things were during 6th/7th edition is quite remarkable. But because you disagree with the complaints, they're amplified, and seem to be more prevalent than they are.

I just recently came across a comment on a thread that had been posted to the Dakka Facebook feed, from someone complaining that Dakka 'only posts salt', with a bunch of people agreeing that we all just do nothing but complain. Out of curiosity, I checked the Facebook feed (which is fed by posts that generate the most discussion on the forums) and found that of the (at that point in time) 10 most recent posts in the feed, a grand total of 2 of them were negative, and the others were positive discussion.

But, because people expect to see whining, that's what they see.

So, here's the thing: You're not going to stop people who don't like things from complaining about them. If you think discussion is weighted towards the negative, there's one way to 'fix' that, and it's not to complain about the fact that some other people are complaining. It's much more simple than that: post more positive discussion.

And on that note, how about we drop the complaining about people complaining, and get back to discussing Kill Team, no?

Oh, there's still a lot of complaining here. It can be fun to bitch about things, after all. The other thing that gets amplified is when you have "usual suspects" often repeating the same few issues regularly across a large (huge!) number of threads, so when you go into one of the threads you see the negativity seemingly everywhere you look (despite it often being the same people). 8th has brought in a lot more positivity, but there's still that culture of negativity and complaints. It's part of Dakka, but also part of the internet. I'd still rather have the ..lively discourse that we have here than live in an echo chamber like Facebook (though I increasingly spend my online time elsewhere for other reasons).

Complaints and criticism of a product, company, "direction" are always healthy things to have in theory. It's how they're reasoned, written and expressed that (usually) make the difference between useful/thought provoking or "whining". And to be fair, it's often much easier to post criticism than to simply post more positive discussion. Like... a starter set sans Space Marines? That's cool. But how many times does it need to be said by how many people before it's pretty redundant as a topic of discussion?

Anyway, that new Genestealer preview makes a big fuss about offering creative opportunities for kitbashers and converters, so we'll see how it all pans out in a few weeks when we get to see the actual rules.

 Kelly502 wrote:

 Valander wrote:
Dammit. Still feels weird to me to be looking forward to more GW stuff after dumping them 20 years ago. But they have been on a roll with Rountree at the head, I have to admit.

Yeah, I'll pick this up.

Yeah dude, they aren’t the same ole GW. Come on back! They’re making up for it.

Oh, I know. I'm pretty into AOS actually, which is shocking since I never played WHFB. I dropped GW shortly after 40k.3, but the models for AOS peaked my interest again and after the first GHB, I gave it a go and was reminded of fun times w/ 40k.2. Back then, I said "if they make 40k.8 like AOS, then I'm in." And, yeah, been building a Thousand Sons army.

Super excited to see Thousand Sons was one of the initial Kill Teams, too, so definitely will at least buy the rulebook for this one.

 Sinful Hero wrote:
And the second sentence of my comment mentioned how could an Arquebus would benefit an Infiltrator over its typical kit.

Which is an irrelevant hypothetical, which is why I ignored it.

Whether it is useful for an Infiltrator to take a Arquebus isn't the point and ultimately doesn't matter. The point is, and has always been, since this discussion began, about how customisable the units in this game would be. Many of us think that the answer is "Not very!", because models will be limited to the options that their 40K proper units can take. Given GW's track record, and even with the last time they did a (simpler) version of this game*, there's a good chance that the type of game many have been asking for simply won't be possible because they insist on only writing rules for the exact models they sell, even when those kits can be mixed'n'matched with others very easily (the GSC and Skitarii kits work with one another).

*For example, Chaos Cultists being limited to only what their minis have, and nothing else.

 thekingofkings wrote:
gotta tell you, I was fully in your shoes with that opinion, until I got a set (really cheap) then filled in the skullmageddon and then flocked the hell out of it...now we use them for about everything from rpg to tabletop.

But why? Big clunky plastic tiles with no variations, built-in terrain (those hills) stifling all forms of creativity.

I generally don't like "moulded boards", that is to say boards that have the terrain features built into them (hills, trenches, etc.) because it dictates what can and cannot be there. The standard RoB board can't do a city because it's rolling hills. It can't be a military base on concrete because it has those damned hills.

I also object to those tiles on their cost alone. You purchase this insanely expensive and inflexible set of plastic tiles and you still don't have a proper playing surface. For the cost of that RoB board you could have got yourself a flat piece of 6x4 and enough terrain to do anything.

Im just happy that after the awesome changes GW have made over the past couple years it's gotten so good that we can complain about trivial things!

Wanting a game to be more customisable, fitting with the idea of specialist covert-ops Kill-Teams that take the right tools for the job rather than whatever tools happen to be on their sprues is now a 'trivial' thing?

Like insaniak said a page ago:

"You not being interested in something that other people would like does not make it complaining just for the sake of it.

Being able to build non - standard models is precisely what would make Kill Team interesting. You're welcome to disagree, but please at least do people the courtesy of accepting that different people like different things."

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'm not expecting PA Marines to get Shotguns and Sniper Rifles because (guess what!) that's the job of Scouts.

Umm...?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It also creates a clusterfeth of rules and is much harder to balance. Nothing is stopping you from building that Infiltrator with a Arquebus, but it makes no sense lore wise and doesnt make sense rules wise. That's. Not. Their. Job.

You have proof that this would be hard to balance?

Marines being able to take Shotguns? A Guardsmen equipped with dual Autopistols? Chaos Cultists with Lasguns? Genestealer Acolytes with Bolters?

OMG! The balance! It's dying!!! (/melodrama)

If you want to do it, get your mates together and write add on rules for it! If we waited for GW to write what is essentially an infinite amount of ballanced unit/warhear combinations, the game would never come out!

Take the time you are spending F5ing this thread and get to work!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Wanting a game to be more customisable, fitting with the idea of specialist covert-ops Kill-Teams that take the right tools for the job rather than whatever tools happen to be on their sprues is now a 'trivial' thing?

Like insaniak said a page ago:

"You not being interested in something that other people would like does not make it complaining just for the sake of it.

Being able to build non - standard models is precisely what would make Kill Team interesting. You're welcome to disagree, but please at least do people the courtesy of accepting that different people like different things."

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'm not expecting PA Marines to get Shotguns and Sniper Rifles because (guess what!) that's the job of Scouts.

Umm...?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It also creates a clusterfeth of rules and is much harder to balance. Nothing is stopping you from building that Infiltrator with a Arquebus, but it makes no sense lore wise and doesnt make sense rules wise. That's. Not. Their. Job.

You have proof that this would be hard to balance?

Marines being able to take Shotguns? A Guardsmen equipped with dual Autopistols? Chaos Cultists with Lasguns? Genestealer Acolytes with Bolters?

OMG! The balance! It's dying!!! (/melodrama)

Why on earth would he need proof? At best he’d need evidence and given it’s a far more reasonable hypothesis than gw being “lazy” or secretly hating us he doesn’t even need that.

I guess a few people want a balanced strict competitive game so they're happy to see customisable infintry go. Not like the majority of players haven't been to a single tournament in their life and might actually want to turn up to a gw store and play a friendly fun game for once. I mean look at GW's history (all of it from the start). When have they ever created an amazing strictly balanced and competitive game? Yet, whe have they made a fun customisable rpg style of game that's a great escape from the stuff we have to put up in real life?

They tend to make the later a lot more and they tend to be a lot more fun. So, looking at the evidence I would rather the game be a fun customisable rpg experience I can just turn up to, find a stranger and play with (without having to try and persuade a competitive group thta my twin pistol space marine is legit okay to play with) and have some table top fun. Because a strict competitive "serious" game about space monks is going to be very unlikely a great balanced and competitive game if you keep track of GW'S track record. Therefore, I'd take my chances with fun over competitive and leave the competitive to the already (more) balanced killteam style games that are out there not made by GW.

Anyway, it's not out yet so we will see... i'm just stating what I'd rather have and what I'm seeing from all the GW articles.

If 16 armies with 6 units each with about 5 choices per unit for a single booked brand new game don't fill your expectations then I don't know what to tell you.

The second they would make a combo where you'd have to buy a second kit for a certain gun would drive you same people up the wall with cries of selling kits just to be competitive


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In the same thread where people don't want to buy a game for the rules (which can be easy gotten online) they are asking for a system where a new player would have to buy a ton of random minature boxes in order to have access to all the weapon options! It's crazy!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

I generally don't like "moulded boards", that is to say boards that have the terrain features built into them (hills, trenches, etc.) because it dictates what can and cannot be there. The standard RoB board can't do a city because it's rolling hills. It can't be a military base on concrete because it has those damned hills.

The bigger problems with the RoB for me are that dice bounce around on them like nobody's business (and are loud!) and minis don't stand properly on them.

RIPferdy wrote:
If you want to do it, get your mates together and write add on rules for it! If we waited for GW to write what is essentially an infinite amount of ballanced unit/warhear combinations, the game would never come out!

Take the time you are spending F5ing this thread and get to work!

Again, house rules are not an option for some of us.

I think you're overstating the complexity involved, as well. While there is certainly a lot of gear in the game, a lot of the bigger stuff lies outside the scope of Kill Team, and for the rest, the majority of weapons actually fit into a fairly narrow range of stats. And, hell, it doesn't even have to be a system that allows every model to take every possible combination of weapons... just something that lets you build 'character' models that don't have to conform to the 40K Codex standard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

RIPferdy wrote:

The second they would make a combo where you'd have to buy a second kit for a certain gun would drive you same people up the wall with cries of selling kits just to be competitive

It's probably more likely that we would just be suggesting that GW sell weapon kits like they used to for Necromunda...

Weapon kits for 16 armies? That a newbie would still have to buy, dude.....

Im sad, as an old Warhammer player to see so many old warhammer grumps, I'm glad the game is growing, the torch needs to be passed

RIPferdy wrote:
Weapon kits for 16 armies? That a newbie would still have to buy, dude.....

A new player is going to have to buy models regardless. But yes, building stuff that's not in the normal kit is going to require players to source extra parts. That's the tradeoff for allowing customisability, and it's something that gamers have been working with quite successfully for decades.

Im sad, as an old Warhammer player to see so many old warhammer grumps, I'm glad the game is growing, the torch needs to be passed

If you're reading this discussion as 'grumpy', I think you're injecting emotion into it that isn't there. People are stating a preference, that's all.

This game is exists in large part for new people to ramp up to 40k and making them buy multiple kits and upgrades to field 8 dudes is a bad idea

If you want some sort of "I know everything about 40k already and want every possible option for all the thousands of $$$s I already have in bits" then go make your own version!

This isn't the game you then want, and should go post elsewhere and stop greeding up the thread from those who want to read about kill team

RIPferdy wrote:
This game is exists in large part for new people to ramp up to 40k and making them buy multiple kits and upgrades to field 8 dudes is a bad idea

Having options doesn't force people to use them. The point of offering customisation options is to give more option for customisation. There's nothing stopping people from building their guys straight out of the box.

This game exists to provide a different gaming experience to regular 40K, not just as a gateway for new players. Offering a wide range of customisation is one way to do that, that fits neatly with the actual theme of the game. I'm really not seeing why this is such a contentious idea, to be honest.

If you want some sort of "I know everything about 40k already and want every possible option for all the thousands of $$$s I already have in bits" then go make your own version!

Yes, by all means ignore the part where I specifically said that wasn't what I was looking for.

Dude, this is a thread about kill team of you don't like kill team go do something else, no one cares

RIPferdy wrote:
Dude, this is a thread about kill team of you don't like kill team go do something else, no one cares

I suspect that you have rather misunderstood what's going on here.

For the record, Kill Team is more likely to get me playing with my 40K miniatures again than 8th edition will. Wishlisting for a Necromunda-ish level of customisability that probably won't actually happen doesn't mean I hate the entire game. Take a breath and accept that different people like different things, and that discussing those different things is a part of what threads like this are for.

Removed by insaniak. Please see Dakka's Rule #1

RIPferdy wrote:
Im just happy that after the awesome changes GW have made over the past couple years it's gotten so good that we can complain about trivial things!

THIS.

Love the game, love the direction. Looks like a winner, and the figures are really neat looking! What's not to complain about, bring on the hate train!!!!

I can't believe I got a warning by insomniak for calling out insomniaks grumpyness about kill team

Something needs to change regarding dakkas old guard crapping over the future of warhammer

I think it's really cool GW is suggesting and encouraging conversions and kit-bashing:

"With 10 Neophyte Hybrids and some unique Genestealer Cults Tactics, the Kill Team box set is a great one for aspiring Patriarchs – you could even mix and match with the Skitarii to make a force from the Cult of the Bladed Cog! If you want to get stuck in right away, build yourself some heavy melee fighters with the Acolyte Hybrids set, available now – and stay tuned for tomorrow’s preview, when we’ll be looking at Adeptus Astartes kill teams."

From: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/07/07/7th-july-kill-team-focus-the-genestealer-cultsgw-homepage-post-1/

 MrHarold wrote:
I think it's really cool GW is suggesting and encouraging conversions and kit-bashing:

"With 10 Neophyte Hybrids and some unique Genestealer Cults Tactics, the Kill Team box set is a great one for aspiring Patriarchs – you could even mix and match with the Skitarii to make a force from the Cult of the Bladed Cog! If you want to get stuck in right away, build yourself some heavy melee fighters with the Acolyte Hybrids set, available now – and stay tuned for tomorrow’s preview, when we’ll be looking at Adeptus Astartes kill teams."

From: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/07/07/7th-july-kill-team-focus-the-genestealer-cultsgw-homepage-post-1/

But those kitbashes don't give you a competitive advantage over the people who just bought the Neophyte box, so they don't really matter. :v

This might actually be just the thing that will get me back in to 40k. Picked up the witch hunter inquisitor a while ago and built a couple of henchmen.
Hmm interesting, 40k has got too way at of scale for me regards to cost of the models and how many you need. So maybe just maybe this will get some hobby time and make me put down bolt action.

Ps anvil industries will be getting plenty of visits soon me thinks.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
But those kitbashes don't give you a competitive advantage over the people who just bought the Neophyte box, so they don't really matter. :v

That's an odd way to look at it. Encouraging people to create cool conversions is always a good thing, even if they do only make a difference visually.

There is nothing keeping you from doing counts-as conversions in kill team

RIPferdy wrote:
There is nothing keeping you from doing counts-as conversions in kill team

Speaking as someone who does nothing but conversions for 40k, having to make everything count as something standard is ultimately a very dissatisfying experience. What I’d like is a toolkit that lets me create a bespoke set of rules for each mini I make. I totally understand that many people want a tight, competitive game, but isn’t that the whole point of the three ways to play mantra?

RIPferdy wrote:
This game is exists in large part for new people to ramp up to 40k and making them buy multiple kits and upgrades to field 8 dudes is a bad idea

If you want some sort of "I know everything about 40k already and want every possible option for all the thousands of $$$s I already have in bits" then go make your own version!

This isn't the game you then want, and should go post elsewhere and stop greeding up the thread from those who want to read about kill team

But how is this a good thing? I'm really confused, especially because I'm a apart of lots of other none 40k grouos who would all be saying the opposite.

1. So the game is basically just an advert? Doesn't this mean it's more likely going to be limited and be lazy just to sell a product? And we're also okay with paying money to be a part of the advert?
2. For new players? Oh, so all the dedicated fans of 40k don't mean anything. Geuss we should just go back to our dungeons. Wasn't this the exsact same reason why gw failedmin the first place nad had to rebuild itself? Ifocused too much on selling to new players?
3.People have already said this but a game is no fun if I make my own version that only I can play. There are some amazing fan made kill team games out there already even for 8th edition but getting people to play them is like getting a grot to happily charge into battle.
4. So customisable stuff, fun things that affect rules, they're all not good? 20 years ago you would have been bared from every gaming club im the uk for suggesting that.
5. Ahh.. the age old "here is my opinion now don't try to counter it because that would waste space even though, under my own criteria, I'm wasting space by stating my opinion".
6. If rogue rader will come out then how does that encourage people to buy more armies? Hence, why i think thisnis a stabd alone game not an advert. I'm jus shocked people would be okay if it was an advert.

Honestly, a lot of my response is just being baffled at players supporting a system that clearly goes against fun. However, I'm not talking about Kill team here when I say system. I have no idea if Kill team will be fun and full of custom stuff or not. At this point it's beyond my knowledge. I'm talking about the system people have made up in their heads... a system where the game is just an advert aimed to sucker in new players and be as bland and boring so it can be perfectly balanced. But there is nothing wrong with I or anyone posting our fears. And the majority of people are just replying to posts shocked at these ideas! Ideas that if the game was a strict only competitive bland rip off advert to sucker in new people, then people would be absolutely fine with that and would, as many people have suggested, prefer that and pay for that over a fun rpg game where you can create unique characters based on the 40k universe and battle them out.

I know taste has a factor in a lot of things but it just goes over my head when I see the two options and one of them doesn't even seem like an option to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:

RIPferdy wrote:
There is nothing keeping you from doing counts-as conversions in kill team

Speaking as someone who does nothing but conversions for 40k, having to make everything count as something standard is ultimately a very dissatisfying experience. What I’d like is a toolkit that lets me create a bespoke set of rules for each mini I make. I totally understand that many people want a tight, competitive game, but isn’t that the whole point of the three ways to play mantra?

Yeah, GW could have basically given you the 6 data sheets and then a 7th one that's blank and says "do it yourself". But an extra rule saying "it is suggested that tournaments don't allow this data sheet". That way matched play players and get a game without that one player complaining he doesn't want tompkay custom open play rules amd tournaments can have their safe environment. Because right now finding an open play game ina GW (where i primarily played) is almost impossible.

For Necromunda they created the Venator rules for White Dwarf explicitly to cater to the INQ28 customising/converting crowd. Now that is Specialist Games and this is GW Main, but there’s no reason something like that couldn’t be done for Kill Team as well as a side thing.

Even in Necromunda there is an equipment restriction on the oddball unit like Ambot, or the Orgyn, Servito skull, or pet. Gangers also cannot use Ambot or orgyn weapons.

Ganger in Venator gang also unable to take any Special and Heavy weapons.

Chopstick wrote:
Even in Necromunda there is an equipment restriction on the oddball unit like Ambot, or the Orgyn, Servito skull, or pet. Gangers also cannot use Ambot or orgyn weapons.

Ganger in Venator gang also unable to take any Special and Heavy weapons.

Yeah, i tnink there should be restrictions but the more options available the more cool stuff and unique things we can make. I don't think anyone is aksing for a IG conscripts with a titan weapon. XD jist don't get the people who are cool if the units only have the weapons that come in normal 8th edition. I mitht as wel play 8th at that point. XD but that's a big IF as we don't know the full game yet.