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 H.B.M.C. wrote:

This 22"x30" board size is really peculiar. It's not quite 2 feet by not quite 3 feet, and that strikes me as incredibly intentional, and not for in-game reasons. It seems like GW have seen the range of other games out there, and the range of mats out there, seen that they stem from 6x4, 4x4, 3x3 and even 2x2 and consciously decided to make their table-size (and thus all related products) just slightly different so that they're the only ones making mats in that awkward size.

GW already has those terrain sets with boards in them (Moonbase Klasius and Blasted Hallowheart, I think), and I think they are made up of 4 boards that are 22"x32" - why that size? When put together, they make up a table smaller than 4'x6'. But it's largely just because, when folded up, the box is the same size as all their other boxes and fits alongside them on a shelf nicely. Making it two inches larger on either size would make it so the box wouldn't fit on a standardized shelf, in a standardized shipping box, and so on.

Why are these boards 2" shorter? Obviously because they are going to fill all that extra space with candy.

It's also very likely that GW's faction focuses on the Community site aren't showing us everything. Electropriests and robots may well be listed in the main rulebook.

they did say we could play on our RoB 2x2s though. so there is that

 Sqorgar wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

This 22"x30" board size is really peculiar. It's not quite 2 feet by not quite 3 feet, and that strikes me as incredibly intentional, and not for in-game reasons. It seems like GW have seen the range of other games out there, and the range of mats out there, seen that they stem from 6x4, 4x4, 3x3 and even 2x2 and consciously decided to make their table-size (and thus all related products) just slightly different so that they're the only ones making mats in that awkward size.

GW already has those terrain sets with boards in them (Moonbase Klasius and Blasted Hallowheart, I think), and I think they are made up of 4 boards that are 22"x32" - why that size? When put together, they make up a table smaller than 4'x6'. But it's largely just because, when folded up, the box is the same size as all their other boxes and fits alongside them on a shelf nicely. Making it two inches larger on either size would make it so the box wouldn't fit on a standardized shelf, in a standardized shipping box, and so on..

Yeah, I would doubt that GW considered other game mats at all in their decision there. It would have been purely down to what fits in the box, and the fact that it's different to what's already out there would have been regarded either as a handy bonus or completely irrelevant.

To be honest I don't think 22"x30" will be that much different from playing in 3x3 or 2x2.

.

 Barzam wrote:
Of course, you guys are all making assumptions about what the rules actually allow you to use/do. We don't know what equipment options are available to the Skitarii. For all we know, you can make an Infiltrator with an arquebus.

We're making educated guesses based upon previous behaviour.

It's hardly an assumption to say that the AdMech faction will consist of exactly those 4 units in the focus article. It's also not a assumption to say that the options for said models will be 100% exactly what they have on the sprues, and not one iota of difference, because that's how GW operates.

 Barzam wrote:
It's also very likely that GW's faction focuses on the Community site aren't showing us everything. Electropriests and robots may well be listed in the main rulebook.

That's far more of an assumption actually, as we've seen zero to support such an idea, and everything to support the opposite.

I do hope that the faction options are far more broad, and that Kill Team can include smaller vehicles like robots, various light walkers, even the odd jetbike, things like the Blighthauler, or maybe even a Land Speeder, but right now we don't know that, and we can only really speculate on what we do know.

On the board thing: they did note in the article that there would be the option of playing on a RoB tile if you didn’t have one of the ‘official’ tile sets, aka you can totally use a third party 2'×2' mat if you want.

Ah yes, RoB tiles, or the exception to the rule, as I like to call them.

The one type of tile I will never buy.

I was pondering the mat size yesterday.

I think it's purely because, their reasoning not mine, the card mats handily fold into their standard dimension box plus their choice that the Klaistus mat would fit on the 'average' dining table.

The Community announcement stated the Kill Team mats would fit on a coffee table. Maybe they've gone for an 'average, there as well.

I do like the loo of that Mechanicus expansion mat though.

For me, as someone who has been tempted by the 40K plastic tiles, the reverse side of the mats being an Imperial city is a win.

 Barzam wrote:
It's also very likely that GW's faction focuses on the Community site aren't showing us everything. Electropriests and robots may well be listed in the main rulebook.

With the Rogue trader expansion we know that there are at least two kill teams on the way that are most likely not in the main rule book. I would not be surprised to see a book in the future with a compilation of any new factions and expansions for the initial ones.

Davor wrote:
What is this? No Space Marines in a starter set? Where is the outrage, or should I say where is the praise that Games Workshop is not including Space Marines for once now.

People tend to complain when there's something they don't like, and remain quiet when there is something that they do like. GW has also built up quite a collection of people who love their products, but hate the company. This was common WAY back in the 1990's and shows no sign of declining anytime soon or probably ever.

This is because:

1) It's become part of the "culture" of "GW fans". Internet being internet, it becomes a self-renewing attitude when new players come in and discover places like Dakka and the social norms within. GW particularly has a lot of "bitter ex" type gamers who just can't move on and let go.

2) GW hasn't exactly helped this attitude with various anti-consumer business practices over the decades.

3) You can't please everyone. This ties into what it called "entitlement mentality". Look at how many people have indicated that because this newly-announced-but-not-yet-played-by-any-one-of-us game contains a thing, or doesn't contain a specific thing that they wanted that "they're out!" or worse. From "6 exclusive cards" that would be trivial at worst to get hold of, to not having any of a few factions (Assassins and Custodes for example would be worse than Spyrers in OldNecro), lack of new troop models, lack of hero models, potential use of E2B vs lack of new E2B sculpts.. it goes on and on. It can be hard to match the perfection that someone creates in their head. Especially since perfection is impossible.

4) Culture of outrage. This is again, all over the internet and not exclusive to GW, but people these days online actively look for things to be outraged by as a form of entertainment and social acceptance. Ties heavily into #3 above.


Of course, not everyone needs to like everything, and people should feel allowed to express a dislike of something just as much as a like, although honestly GW get more than their fair share of criticism (much is deserved, but much of it is just #1/3/4.

(Stands up and claps)

Azazelx for Internet President!

I for one am hugely happy that there will be no space marines in Rogue Trader - its a move in the right direction, and has particularly awesome looking minis that have me already planning out some conversions

 Gordy2000 wrote:
Azazelx for Internet President!

Make the Internet Great Again!

Did he quote the right post?

The fact that I'll only have to paint 5 to 10 models for a kill team pleases the hobby butterfly in me.

Also I love the look of 40k scenery but have never had the excuse to paint some up before.

Also, also the coloured plastics and coffee table sized board is a clever move by GW. They'll be bringing in the casual board game players who have no intention of painting their game pieces.

I'll be picking up a copy of the game when life allows me.

 Azazelx wrote:
3) You can't please everyone. This ties into what it called "entitlement mentality". Look at how many people have indicated that because this newly-announced-but-not-yet-played-by-any-one-of-us game contains a thing, or doesn't contain a specific thing that they wanted that "they're out!" or worse. From "6 exclusive cards" that would be trivial at worst to get hold of, to not having any of a few factions (Assassins and Custodes for example would be worse than Spyrers in OldNecro), lack of new troop models, lack of hero models, potential use of E2B vs lack of new E2B sculpts.. it goes on and on. It can be hard to match the perfection that someone creates in their head. Especially since perfection is impossible.

4) Culture of outrage. This is again, all over the internet and not exclusive to GW, but people these days online actively look for things to be outraged by as a form of entertainment and social acceptance. Ties heavily into #3 above.


Of course, not everyone needs to like everything, and people should feel allowed to express a dislike of something just as much as a like, although honestly GW get more than their fair share of criticism (much is deserved, but much of it is just #1/3/4.

This, this, this, THIS, THIS, THIS, THIIIIISSSSS!!!!

It drives me mad. GW release a product. I look at it and go either "Eh, not for me, really" or "Ooh! Shiny!". And that's it. Sometimes I'm quite enthusiastic about something and think "Oh, I might post about that on Reddit/Dakka/etc" and am greeted with just... whining. Whine, whine, whine.

"They didn't do the exact thing I wanted them to do in my head so I am going to complain about it far and wide."

Thing is, GW is just GW. If you don't like the business practices, you don't like the figures, then... great. Whatever. Be off with you. I wasn't interested in GW at all in the 90s after being sucked in by the late 80s/early 90s Rogue Trader/2nd Edition 40k. The design aesthetic changed a little, the miniatures seemed out of step with it, and, in some cases, poorly sculpted or heavily stylised in ways that no longer interested me... So I stopped. I didn't make a fuss. I just gently drifted out of the hobby and onto other things, like music, college, booze, etc.

I'm back because I have disposable income, free time and love how ludicrously over the top 40k is, once again, and how well the miniatures are now tying into the overall aesthetic, not to mention how well-made they are. There are plenty of things that have been on my wishlist over the years, like Blood Bowl (snap), Necromunda (snap), a 40k skirmish game (snap x 2 apparently) and so on, Thousand Sons being supported as an army in their own right (snap), and while they didn't take the forms I'd had in my head and fundamentally different to what I might have expected, they were still interestingly thought-out, well-designed and good looking.

If a product doesn't meet any of those criteria for you... why do you even care?

insaniak wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
What kind of customization/kit-bashing are people looking for? Wych Cult Weapons on Kabalite Warriors? Spinefists on Hormagaunts? Generally you’re getting an inferior unit to Wyches or Termagants with their typical loadout. As far as Imperial armies are concerned, aren’t the weapons more important to distinguish between units? I’m not sure I could tell the difference at a glance if it was an Assault or Tactical Marine carrying a Bolter.

Personally, I'd be looking for something akin to the old Necromunda Trading Post, where pretty much anything goes. When you're only taking half a dozen models rather than full units, it doesn't actually much matter whether that Marine is a Tactical Marine or an Assault Marine. He's a Marine, in a kill team.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

W1ntermute wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
That preview seems to confirm what I feared: that you just have the options available to the squads in 40K. No fun things like Infiltrators with arquebuses allowed. Boring.

No model. No rule.

You shouldn't be surprised.

First picture in Community's post show a guy with arquebus, so I would say it will be possible. We will know soon.

Yes. A Ranger with an arquebus. That's part of the kit. Crimson said an Infiltrator with an arquebus. Did you not follow what we were talking about?

But what’s stopping you from putting an arquebus on an infiltrator and running it as a ranger(or infiltrator with whatever ranged weapon) now? Does the infiltrator have some special rules that would specifically benefit an arquebus over its regular kit?

 ekwatts wrote:

It drives me mad. GW release a product. I look at it and go either "Eh, not for me, really" or "Ooh! Shiny!". And that's it. Sometimes I'm quite enthusiastic about something and think "Oh, I might post about that on Reddit/Dakka/etc" and am greeted with just... whining. Whine, whine, whine.

The funny thing about that is that since the release of 8th edition, most of the online discussion about GW's releases has been overwhelmingly positive. Yes, there have been complaints from some people, as there always will be... but the turnaround from where things were during 6th/7th edition is quite remarkable. But because you disagree with the complaints, they're amplified, and seem to be more prevalent than they are.

I just recently came across a comment on a thread that had been posted to the Dakka Facebook feed, from someone complaining that Dakka 'only posts salt', with a bunch of people agreeing that we all just do nothing but complain. Out of curiosity, I checked the Facebook feed (which is fed by posts that generate the most discussion on the forums) and found that of the (at that point in time) 10 most recent posts in the feed, a grand total of 2 of them were negative, and the others were positive discussion.

But, because people expect to see whining, that's what they see.


So, here's the thing: You're not going to stop people who don't like things from complaining about them. If you think discussion is weighted towards the negative, there's one way to 'fix' that, and it's not to complain about the fact that some other people are complaining. It's much more simple than that: post more positive discussion.


And on that note, how about we drop the complaining about people complaining, and get back to discussing Kill Team, no?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Ah yes, RoB tiles, or the exception to the rule, as I like to call them.

The one type of tile I will never buy.

You might like the quote from Rick Priestley in the latest Wargames Illustrated whilst being interviewed over his 100ft by 14ft former stable block gaming area on GW's RoB tiles:

"I took the GW boards and 'toned down' the skull pits etc by cutting all those away and using filler. It improves them by taking away all the nonsense."

Chopstick wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

You could also make the argument that they're nothing more than politicians, based upon your reading of it.

In any regards: Skitarii make up Kill-Teams. You jerks demanded us as part of your Codex, deal with the results.

Then why they didn't call it Kill team focus : Skitarii ? Rule writer clearly do not read the newest fluff in the book, and also thought topless dude in skirt are not suitable for Covert ops, which is proven wrong.

Just because they perform 'covert ops', in their own territories, against each other, with all that chanting, noise and all manner of glowing and crackling electrical stuff going on doesn't mean they'd make good covert operatives in other places against others.....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inquisitor Kallus wrote:

Chopstick wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

You could also make the argument that they're nothing more than politicians, based upon your reading of it.

In any regards: Skitarii make up Kill-Teams. You jerks demanded us as part of your Codex, deal with the results.

Then why they didn't call it Kill team focus : Skitarii ? Rule writer clearly do not read the newest fluff in the book, and also thought topless dude in skirt are not suitable for Covert ops, which is proven wrong.

Just because they perform 'covert ops', in their own territories, against each other, with all that chanting, noise and all manner of glowing and crackling electrical stuff going on doesn't mean they'd make good covert operatives in different environments places against others.....

No option for a Nurgling kill team?

What is this injustice!?

 dan2026 wrote:
No option for a Nurgling kill team?

What is this injustice!?

Weren’t Nurglings in the Rogue Trader preview? I’d expect Chaos Daemons of some form in that boxset.

 Sinful Hero wrote:
But what’s stopping you from putting an arquebus on an infiltrator and running it as a ranger(or infiltrator with whatever ranged weapon) now?

'Counts As' has no bearing on the rules. You could paint an Ork bone-coloured and call it a Deathwing Terminator, it doesn't make a lick of difference with the rules. And that's not what we're even discussing. We're discussing how the options for these units appear to be limited to exactly what you can build with the kit, so no great customisable units.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
But what’s stopping you from putting an arquebus on an infiltrator and running it as a ranger(or infiltrator with whatever ranged weapon) now?

'Counts As' has no bearing on the rules. You could paint an Ork bone-coloured and call it a Deathwing Terminator, it doesn't make a lick of difference with the rules. And that's not what we're even discussing. We're discussing how the options for these units appear to be limited to exactly what you can build with the kit, so no great customisable units.

And the second sentence of my comment mentioned how could an Arquebus would benefit an Infiltrator over its typical kit.

 Sinful Hero wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
But what’s stopping you from putting an arquebus on an infiltrator and running it as a ranger(or infiltrator with whatever ranged weapon) now?

'Counts As' has no bearing on the rules. You could paint an Ork bone-coloured and call it a Deathwing Terminator, it doesn't make a lick of difference with the rules. And that's not what we're even discussing. We're discussing how the options for these units appear to be limited to exactly what you can build with the kit, so no great customisable units.

And the second sentence of my comment mentioned how could an Arquebus would benefit an Infiltrator over its typical kit.

I believe that it is a legitimate complaint to want this game to be more flexible and open to conversions, options, etc... but with how much GW has put emphasis in how this game is absolutely viable to "matched" play, I think it is clear their intention to make of Kill team the "Shadespire" of w40k, a fun, fast paced, competitive game, with minimal investment.
Necromunda will remain as the narrative driven game, with a ton of options, customization, etc... with Forgeworld extra weapons, gangs war, and all of that.

A shame, because I have always wanted a Mordheim of 40k, and I was hoping for Kill-Team to be that, because I don't really like the Necromunda setting and how everything is a human, but alas. I think I'll still have fun playing Killteam with my friends.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/07/07/7th-july-kill-team-focus-the-genestealer-cultsgw-homepage-post-1/


cult genestealer article.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Ah yes, RoB tiles, or the exception to the rule, as I like to call them.

The one type of tile I will never buy.

gotta tell you, I was fully in your shoes with that opinion, until I got a set (really cheap) then filled in the skullmageddon and then flocked the hell out of it...now we use them for about everything from rpg to tabletop.