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 Silentz wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Its a good move and will be sending them my feedback after first game on Thursday

Please play more than 1 game before submitting your feedback to game developers, people.

Not to be rude but to moan on and on about GW not playtesting their games enough then feel like you can bash out one 1hr game and have anything relevant to contribute at all is arrogant AF.

It was more on list composition and the vast quantity of options and equipment that has been missed out rather than specific game mechanics - although if there is anything glaring I will also send that.

Form my own playtesting experience, things like balance often require quite a few games to test - some things are equally obvious that they don't work after 2 mins.

I don't think you need to play lots of games to tell GW "Hey, can our Deathwatch guys take Bolt Pistols and power weapons that aren't just swords, hammers or maces?".

And didn't someone say that Guard can't get medics? Or that CSMs cannot be specialists, yet Cultists can be?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I don't think you need to play lots of games to tell GW "Hey, can our Deathwatch guys take Bolt Pistols and power weapons that aren't just swords, hammers or maces?".

And didn't someone say that Guard can't get medics? Or that CSMs cannot be specialists, yet Cultists can be?

Guard can get Medics (it's on Scions) and CSM have a number of specialisms they can choose from...

I would like to see some clarity on building rosters and recruiting between games in campaign mode. I think all the info is THERE, just some of it has to be inferred by omission (e.g. can you make new fire teams, if I disband a fire team and replace how big can they be, are there restrictions on recruiting specialists). Some good examples would go a long way to helping the newer players in my group.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I don't think you need to play lots of games to tell GW "Hey, can our Deathwatch guys take Bolt Pistols and power weapons that aren't just swords, hammers or maces?".

And didn't someone say that Guard can't get medics? Or that CSMs cannot be specialists, yet Cultists can be?

Guard can have medic specialists if they're scions. Not sure what you're on about with the CSM thing, it looks like the only difference in available specialist classes between the two is that cultists can be Combat specialists and CSMs can be Sniper specialists. The only close combat focused specialist role available to CSMs is "zealot".


IMO the only problems with the game system currently are:

-a few units are hindered in the transition from base 40k rules to KT rules. Worst example is Tau. Markerlights either need to be fireable with your other weapons (allow for a "scattergun" approach with a bunch of crappy troopers with markerlights fishing for sixes) or they need to be more accurate (Ignore long range and cover would be where I'd start with them. At the most extreme, I'd just allow them to autohit, but only allow them to be used if the firer is Readied and they give up their shooting action to use the marker light.) Compared to the buffs that many armies INCLUDING TAU get just for free without using a combat action and without giving up a model's shooting, Markerlight bonuses are crap. See also: Pulse blasters, Harlequin pistol weapons, Grey Knights Attacks value, most stuff that's head-scratchingly weird was just copy/pasted in from 40k wholesale.

-A couple minor structural issues, Pistols being implemented in a very bizarre and difficult to use way, turn initiative being something that gives you a huge advantage if you go second if you're a melee focused army, and a couple things like that.

But overall...it's actually a much better system than 40k. I kind of love the whole "campaign lite" system its got going on, where it just kind of effortlessly dodges the usual feels-bad consequences of a certain player getting really unlucky early in the campaign, losing all their important dudes, and wanting to quit after three games because he's down to 3 soldiers and he can never win a game. For the purpose it's designed for - introducing people to 40k with a system that's still high-engagement but low-investment comparatively, and making multiple game days with a group fun and interesting with minimal bookkeeping - it does that really really well.

And you don't think it's weird that regular Guardsmen can't be medics?

unitled wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I don't think you need to play lots of games to tell GW "Hey, can our Deathwatch guys take Bolt Pistols and power weapons that aren't just swords, hammers or maces?".

And didn't someone say that Guard can't get medics? Or that CSMs cannot be specialists, yet Cultists can be?

Guard can get Medics (it's on Scions) and CSM have a number of specialisms they can choose from...

Guardsmen can't be Medics (despite them having medics on the Command Squad sprue, just like Scions), and CSM can't be Combat Specialists, but their Cultists can.

Played 5 Kill Team games yesterday. The one mechanic that really stood out is the random initiative for movement phase when playing an all-assault team versus an all-shooting team. If the assault player (like Harlequins) gets the initiative, they can charge all they want but the all-shooting team (Skitarii) will just Fall Back while their teammates shoot. But if they lose the initiative, the shooters have to move but then they'll get charged wherever they are and can't Fall Back.

This seemed like a big swing, tho our Harlequins versus Skitarii example was kinda extreme. I'm thinking about adding a house rule tactic "Reaction Move" that's a mirror image of "Decisive Move" but lets you move a model at the END of the Movement phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also I appreciate all the non-specialists being grouped together in a Fire Team within campaigns. Much less bookkeeping than Shadow War.

 axisofentropy wrote:
Played 5 Kill Team games yesterday. The one mechanic that really stood out is the random initiative for movement phase when playing an all-assault team versus an all-shooting team. If the assault player (like Harlequins) gets the initiative, they can charge all they want but the all-shooting team (Skitarii) will just Fall Back while their teammates shoot. But if they lose the initiative, the shooters have to move but then they'll get charged wherever they are and can't Fall Back.

This seemed like a big swing, tho our Harlequins versus Skitarii example was kinda extreme. I'm thinking about adding a house rule tactic "Reaction Move" that's a mirror image of "Decisive Move" but lets you move a model at the END of the Movement phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also I appreciate all the non-specialists being grouped together in a Fire Team within campaigns. Much less bookkeeping than Shadow War.

Its a good thing you can't fall back if you've been charged that turn, that'd really make the game balance pretty wonky.

 axisofentropy wrote:
Played 5 Kill Team games yesterday. The one mechanic that really stood out is the random initiative for movement phase when playing an all-assault team versus an all-shooting team. If the assault player (like Harlequins) gets the initiative, they can charge all they want but the all-shooting team (Skitarii) will just Fall Back while their teammates shoot. But if they lose the initiative, the shooters have to move but then they'll get charged wherever they are and can't Fall Back.

This seemed like a big swing, tho our Harlequins versus Skitarii example was kinda extreme. I'm thinking about adding a house rule tactic "Reaction Move" that's a mirror image of "Decisive Move" but lets you move a model at the END of the Movement phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also I appreciate all the non-specialists being grouped together in a Fire Team within campaigns. Much less bookkeeping than Shadow War.

“Falling Back
When you pick a model to move, if that model started the Movement phase within 1" of an enemy model, it cannot make a normal move. Instead, it can either remain stationary or Fall Back. A model cannot Fall Back if an enemy model finished a charge move within 1" of it in the same phase.”

Never mind, the_scottsman beat me to the initiative.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

unitled wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I don't think you need to play lots of games to tell GW "Hey, can our Deathwatch guys take Bolt Pistols and power weapons that aren't just swords, hammers or maces?".

And didn't someone say that Guard can't get medics? Or that CSMs cannot be specialists, yet Cultists can be?

Guard can get Medics (it's on Scions) and CSM have a number of specialisms they can choose from...

Guardsmen can't be Medics (despite them having medics on the Command Squad sprue, just like Scions), and CSM can't be Combat Specialists, but their Cultists can.

There's finding actual flaws in a game system and then there's finding instances where someone took a very generalized system and did their best to fit it onto an extremely wide variety of models.

There are plenty of races where a class called "medic" doesn't make sense. but if you actually look at the "medic" skill tree, you'll see that it includes subclasses like "interrogator" "poisoner" etc.

Yes, it's going to be hard to find a set of specialisms that apply equally to a magic birdgoatman and a space soldier.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And you don't think it's weird that regular Guardsmen can't be medics?

I'm hoping we get some errata soon that adds the things that seem to be obvious oversights like guardsmen medics and scions with grenade launchers. (I'm sure there's other but I play guard )

the_scotsman wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

unitled wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I don't think you need to play lots of games to tell GW "Hey, can our Deathwatch guys take Bolt Pistols and power weapons that aren't just swords, hammers or maces?".

And didn't someone say that Guard can't get medics? Or that CSMs cannot be specialists, yet Cultists can be?

Guard can get Medics (it's on Scions) and CSM have a number of specialisms they can choose from...

Guardsmen can't be Medics (despite them having medics on the Command Squad sprue, just like Scions), and CSM can't be Combat Specialists, but their Cultists can.

There's finding actual flaws in a game system and then there's finding instances where someone took a very generalized system and did their best to fit it onto an extremely wide variety of models.

There are plenty of races where a class called "medic" doesn't make sense. but if you actually look at the "medic" skill tree, you'll see that it includes subclasses like "interrogator" "poisoner" etc.

Yes, it's going to be hard to find a set of specialisms that apply equally to a magic birdgoatman and a space soldier.

Your inverting the point - the issue (amongst many similar) it NOT that Tzzangor can have medics is that Guardsmen can't. CSM can't be combat specialists

Kiloran wrote:

“Falling Back
When you pick a model to move, if that model started the Movement phase within 1" of an enemy model, it cannot make a normal move. Instead, it can either remain stationary or Fall Back. A model cannot Fall Back if an enemy model finished a charge move within 1" of it in the same phase.”

Thanks we totally missed this!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
this makes Harlequins uh extremely good

the_scotsman wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

unitled wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I don't think you need to play lots of games to tell GW "Hey, can our Deathwatch guys take Bolt Pistols and power weapons that aren't just swords, hammers or maces?".

And didn't someone say that Guard can't get medics? Or that CSMs cannot be specialists, yet Cultists can be?

Guard can get Medics (it's on Scions) and CSM have a number of specialisms they can choose from...

Guardsmen can't be Medics (despite them having medics on the Command Squad sprue, just like Scions), and CSM can't be Combat Specialists, but their Cultists can.

There's finding actual flaws in a game system and then there's finding instances where someone took a very generalized system and did their best to fit it onto an extremely wide variety of models.

There are plenty of races where a class called "medic" doesn't make sense. but if you actually look at the "medic" skill tree, you'll see that it includes subclasses like "interrogator" "poisoner" etc.

Yes, it's going to be hard to find a set of specialisms that apply equally to a magic birdgoatman and a space soldier.

I think you missed the point.

I don't have a problem that Tzaangors can be medics. I have a problem that Guardsmen can't.

I honestly don't know why they didn't make it possible for anyone to be a specialist of any kind (barring Leaders). There's so many inconsistencies with the system - for example, a Guardsman can only be a Comms specialist if they have a vox caster. Meanwhile, a Special Weapon Team Guardsman can be a Comms specialist, and they don't even have ACCESS to vox casters.

Yes, I've seen the medic skill tree. It doesn't change the fact that the strategems associated with it, the name of it, and the primary perk of it are all primarily about defensive buffs to the people around the "medic". You can have a medic who may use their medical knowledge to make poisons, but fundamentally they're a MEDIC - and Guardsmen, despite having the kit for it (and are one of the handful of armies that actually do have medic models, unlike Tau, Eldar, and Tzaangors, who can ALSO be medics) are not considered for it.


Or, to put it another way, why can a Cultist (a basic human devoted to their god) be a combat specialist, but a CSM (a superhuman devoted to the same god, and have most likely been in combat longer than the cultist has been alive) or a Guardsman (a basic human devoted to a different god) can't?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

unitled wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I don't think you need to play lots of games to tell GW "Hey, can our Deathwatch guys take Bolt Pistols and power weapons that aren't just swords, hammers or maces?".

And didn't someone say that Guard can't get medics? Or that CSMs cannot be specialists, yet Cultists can be?

Guard can get Medics (it's on Scions) and CSM have a number of specialisms they can choose from...

Guardsmen can't be Medics (despite them having medics on the Command Squad sprue, just like Scions), and CSM can't be Combat Specialists, but their Cultists can.

There's finding actual flaws in a game system and then there's finding instances where someone took a very generalized system and did their best to fit it onto an extremely wide variety of models.

There are plenty of races where a class called "medic" doesn't make sense. but if you actually look at the "medic" skill tree, you'll see that it includes subclasses like "interrogator" "poisoner" etc.

Yes, it's going to be hard to find a set of specialisms that apply equally to a magic birdgoatman and a space soldier.

I think you missed the point.

I don't have a problem that Tzaangors can be medics. I have a problem that Guardsmen can't.

I honestly don't know why they didn't make it possible for anyone to be a specialist of any kind (barring Leaders). There's so many inconsistencies with the system - for example, a Guardsman can only be a Comms specialist if they have a vox caster. Meanwhile, a Special Weapon Team Guardsman can be a Comms specialist, and they don't even have ACCESS to vox casters.

Yes, I've seen the medic skill tree. It doesn't change the fact that the strategems associated with it, the name of it, and the primary perk of it are all primarily about defensive buffs to the people around the "medic". You can have a medic who may use their medical knowledge to make poisons, but fundamentally they're a MEDIC - and Guardsmen, despite having the kit for it (and are one of the handful of armies that actually do have medic models, unlike Tau, Eldar, and Tzaangors, who can ALSO be medics) are not considered for it.


Or, to put it another way, why can a Cultist (a basic human devoted to their god) be a combat specialist, but a CSM (a superhuman devoted to the same god, and have most likely been in combat longer than the cultist has been alive) or a Guardsman (a basic human devoted to a different god) can't?

Because they opted to make specialisms limited for their game system, and different units have access to different specialisms. Sure, if you asked me to set up the system, I'd have everyone just have access to every specialty. If you want to have a tzaangor medic, I want to see what cool witch doctor you come up with. Tau combat specialist? Sounds like it'll be a great model.

I wouldn't call it out as a fundamental flaw in the system, just a design choice to add variety to the different unit offerings. The implementation of Pulse Blasters for example is something I'd call a flaw - why does this one weapon wobble between short and long range as it gets closer to an enemy? It doesn't make sense with the way the weapon is described as a shotgun-style weapon, but because it's codified into the rules differently than other shotguns used by other factions, it does something weird with the rules unique to KT.

If you ask me if it makes sense with the fluff that chaos space marines can't be precise combat specialists...I'd probably say no. But then again, I'd also say that about Tau as well - why can't Shas'o Kais be on your squad, stabbing away with his katana?

I want to start a catachan kill team, I'm not particularly enamored by the scion models but think I'm gonna need some elites in my team. Anybody have any advice or examples of conversions/third parties I could use to make basically elite catachans?
Thanks

the_scotsman wrote:
Because they opted to make specialisms limited for their game system, and different units have access to different specialisms. Sure, if you asked me to set up the system, I'd have everyone just have access to every specialty. If you want to have a tzaangor medic, I want to see what cool witch doctor you come up with. Tau combat specialist? Sounds like it'll be a great model.

Yes, but what I'm saying is WHY is this specialism limited? It's not like the faction can't have it, because the Scions get it. It's not like the kit doesn't allow for it because the Command Squad kits both have it.

Or, why can't regular SM or CSM have combat specialism, but other units in their faction can?

I wouldn't call it out as a fundamental flaw in the system, just a design choice to add variety to the different unit offerings. The implementation of Pulse Blasters for example is something I'd call a flaw - why does this one weapon wobble between short and long range as it gets closer to an enemy? It doesn't make sense with the way the weapon is described as a shotgun-style weapon, but because it's codified into the rules differently than other shotguns used by other factions, it does something weird with the rules unique to KT.

See, I wouldn't call yours a fundamental flaw. It encourages you to move close. I'd probably change it myself, have it so any weapon firing at a range of 8" or below has no negative hit modifiers, but all the same, I can see why they just imposed a blanket rule.

This isn't a blanket rule, it's a deliberate (or accidental) omission, and I see no reason for it.

If you ask me if it makes sense with the fluff that chaos space marines can't be precise combat specialists...I'd probably say no. But then again, I'd also say that about Tau as well - why can't Shas'o Kais be on your squad, stabbing away with his katana?

Agreed. There shouldn't have been restrictions on what specialism you got to have. Considering the emphasis on making up backstory for your specialists, I'm surprised that they didn't let us take any specialism and Forge the Narrative of why there's an Ork Sniper (a real one this time!), or a melee focused Tau, or a medic Tyranid.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Abaddon303 wrote:
I want to start a catachan kill team, I'm not particularly enamored by the scion models but think I'm gonna need some elites in my team. Anybody have any advice or examples of conversions/third parties I could use to make basically elite catachans?
Thanks

You could consider making riot shields for the Catachans, or perhaps wearing slabs of alien chitin strapped to their limbs? Like, a Tyranid/Xeno hunter team, with bits of chitin carved off their slain foes and fashioned into armour?

Abaddon303 wrote:
I want to start a catachan kill team, I'm not particularly enamored by the scion models but think I'm gonna need some elites in my team. Anybody have any advice or examples of conversions/third parties I could use to make basically elite catachans?
Thanks

You could take the scion torsos but replace the arms with burly armor-less catachan arms to make them seem slightly more armored and 'elite'?

Abaddon303 wrote:
Anybody have any advice or examples of conversions/third parties I could use to make basically elite catachans?

Anvil Industry's Jungle range possibly.

Abaddon303 wrote:
I want to start a catachan kill team, I'm not particularly enamored by the scion models but think I'm gonna need some elites in my team. Anybody have any advice or examples of conversions/third parties I could use to make basically elite catachans?
Thanks

Puppetswar Shadowhounds would be good third party option for more armoured Catachans.

Those are my go-to for Tempestus Scions for a Catachan army.

Abaddon303 wrote:
I want to start a catachan kill team, I'm not particularly enamored by the scion models but think I'm gonna need some elites in my team. Anybody have any advice or examples of conversions/third parties I could use to make basically elite catachans?
Thanks

Aliens colonial marine figs? I'd hate to ever recommend Prodos for anything due to how gakky they've treated their AVP kickstarter backers for years (and continue to do so in some cases) but Colonial Marines are uparmored compared to t-shirt catachans and might make good stormtrooper versions.

Those ares lovely models, but would look ridiculous next to GW Catachan

These new building kits are amazing.



I was only supposed to stick together the smaller ruined sections and leave the two bigger buildings for later, but before I knew it.. everything assembled. The larger of the two buildings is a bit fiddly with the floors, but other than that..

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Silentz wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Its a good move and will be sending them my feedback after first game on Thursday

Please play more than 1 game before submitting your feedback to game developers, people.

Not to be rude but to moan on and on about GW not playtesting their games enough then feel like you can bash out one 1hr game and have anything relevant to contribute at all is arrogant AF.

It was more on list composition and the vast quantity of options and equipment that has been missed out rather than specific game mechanics - although if there is anything glaring I will also send that.

If you reason for wanting those things is just "I want" rather than because they would actually improve game balance then I think Silentz's point still applies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I don't think you need to play lots of games to tell GW "Hey, can our Deathwatch guys take Bolt Pistols and power weapons that aren't just swords, hammers or maces?".

None of those weapons are in the death watch kit so this goes with the current policies in that regard just fine. I'm pretty confident that isn't an oversight.

 BrookM wrote:
These new building kits are amazing.
I was only supposed to stick together the smaller ruined sections and leave the two bigger buildings for later, but before I knew it.. everything assembled. The larger of the two buildings is a bit fiddly with the floors, but other than that..

I'm trying to decide if I want to use all the 'bigger' building bits(archway, doors, etc) to make a cathedral's entryway...

There's a lot of focus on the new terrain stuff (looks great), but Kill Team would be suitable on almost any terrain like 40k is? Anything from desert, ice, city, ruins, forest, industrial...

 Silentz wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Its a good move and will be sending them my feedback after first game on Thursday

Please play more than 1 game before submitting your feedback to game developers, people.

Not to be rude but to moan on and on about GW not playtesting their games enough then feel like you can bash out one 1hr game and have anything relevant to contribute at all is arrogant AF.

Haven't played kill team yet, but you wouldn't need to play more than 1 single game of Necromunda to discover big flaws and game breaking errors. Too bad they hardly listen to feedback for that game.

Baxx wrote:

 Silentz wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Its a good move and will be sending them my feedback after first game on Thursday

Please play more than 1 game before submitting your feedback to game developers, people.

Not to be rude but to moan on and on about GW not playtesting their games enough then feel like you can bash out one 1hr game and have anything relevant to contribute at all is arrogant AF.

Haven't played kill team yet, but you wouldn't need to play more than 1 single game of Necromunda to discover big flaws and game breaking errors. Too bad they hardly listen to feedback for that game.

Imagine if you released a game and then met someone on the street the next day who said 'Dude, I played your game last night and think I got the rules right and let me tell you what you need to fix...'

It's a similar scenario, except in this case the developer has never even met you and can't be certain you actually played the game in the first place.

 Scott-S6 wrote:
None of those weapons are in the death watch kit so this goes with the current policies in that regard just fine. I'm pretty confident that isn't an oversight.

I know it's not an oversight, but when the Deathwatch Codex came out they stopped with the mind-numbing restrictions and made it more free for players to arm their characters as they want.

For a game like this the same amount of freedom should be replicated. The asinine no model = no rule restrictions, especially on such kit-bashable minis like Space Marines, is the worst thing they could do for a game like this.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
Imagine if you released a game and then met someone on the street the next day who said 'Dude, I played your game last night and think I got the rules right and let me tell you what you need to fix...'

It's a similar scenario, except in this case the developer has never even met you and can't be certain you actually played the game in the first place.

If the guy had never played a wargame before, but most of us have been at this a while and can see mistakes and problems a mile off.

Btw just a heads up but my local redshirt told me today about a big Kill Team campaign being officially supported this september.