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 Flinty wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
I'm really afraid for this expansion. It's like the game was almost perfectly fine (it needs some balancing, namely on GSC and Necrons that feel under-powered) and then they just said "Hey let's spice things up and crank it to eleven". DG looks to be even more ridiculously OP than they're now. Can't be sure but their options look really powerful. We'll need to see the point costs and the overall book before judging I guess.

I've just grown so fond of KT that I've almost completely set 8th aside in favour of it (being an AdMech player means 80% of my games are just intense suffering), and I'm afraid they're already messing it up. Of course they say they're optional rules, until they're not anymore and we have super-heavies and such in KT.

Sergeants are supposed to be commanders of 10 men squads. You know, GW, not Necron OVERLORDS ?

And the commanders expansion lets you do boss fights.if you want. I don't see how this is a bad thing. To.play a game of anything GW based you need to agree a points value anyway so I don't see this being particularly different.

"Would you like to.play kill team?"
"Why yes I would. Would you like to.play with commanders this time?"
"No, not this time I think."
"Ok, so 100 points then?"
"Sounds good."

Ta dah, welcome to reasonable world.

Also if they do add in a few more things, bam. Combat Patrol.

Isn't that part of the issue though? It stops being KILL TEAM then, and moves on to being sub500pt armies for 40k. Hell, with Commanders in place, it's easy enough for GW to say "Hey look, you've got enough units to run a legal patrol detachment now! Why don't you try 40k?"

I don't mind Commander missions/special circumstances to allow them, but I'm wary of the local meta shifting to favor Commander play over normal Killteam.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Tiberius501 wrote:

 Redemption wrote:
Ah, Commanders make the game 200 points instead of the 150 of the Rogue Trader expansion.

Ur, does that mean that Rogue Traders suck even harder when they get to use Vhane because they're only 145pts with her? Man... I thought this expansion was going to make the Traders work a little better.

You'd use the Commanders expansion over the Rogue Trader one I think.

Yeah but their team in full, including Vhane, is 145pts. I guess you could upgrade her, but other people will be getting an extra 50pts worth of models which seems like a much better advantage.

 Carnikang wrote:

 Flinty wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
I'm really afraid for this expansion. It's like the game was almost perfectly fine (it needs some balancing, namely on GSC and Necrons that feel under-powered) and then they just said "Hey let's spice things up and crank it to eleven". DG looks to be even more ridiculously OP than they're now. Can't be sure but their options look really powerful. We'll need to see the point costs and the overall book before judging I guess.

I've just grown so fond of KT that I've almost completely set 8th aside in favour of it (being an AdMech player means 80% of my games are just intense suffering), and I'm afraid they're already messing it up. Of course they say they're optional rules, until they're not anymore and we have super-heavies and such in KT.

Sergeants are supposed to be commanders of 10 men squads. You know, GW, not Necron OVERLORDS ?

And the commanders expansion lets you do boss fights.if you want. I don't see how this is a bad thing. To.play a game of anything GW based you need to agree a points value anyway so I don't see this being particularly different.

"Would you like to.play kill team?"
"Why yes I would. Would you like to.play with commanders this time?"
"No, not this time I think."
"Ok, so 100 points then?"
"Sounds good."

Ta dah, welcome to reasonable world.

Also if they do add in a few more things, bam. Combat Patrol.

Isn't that part of the issue though? It stops being KILL TEAM then, and moves on to being sub500pt armies for 40k. Hell, with Commanders in place, it's easy enough for GW to say "Hey look, you've got enough units to run a legal patrol detachment now! Why don't you try 40k?"

I don't mind Commander missions/special circumstances to allow them, but I'm wary of the local meta shifting to favor Commander play over normal Killteam.

Kill Team is not just about your local meta, it encompasses all types of play, Im glad this is out and for narrative gamers like ne it adds some nice ready made easy to use extra options for different games/forces. If you are that concerned about commanders then why not just run a standard Kill team only tournament yourself? Im sure a lot of other gamers would be willing to participate in that

 Inquisitor Kallus wrote:

 Carnikang wrote:

Isn't that part of the issue though? It stops being KILL TEAM then, and moves on to being sub500pt armies for 40k. Hell, with Commanders in place, it's easy enough for GW to say "Hey look, you've got enough units to run a legal patrol detachment now! Why don't you try 40k?"

I don't mind Commander missions/special circumstances to allow them, but I'm wary of the local meta shifting to favor Commander play over normal Killteam.

Kill Team is not just about your local meta, it encompasses all types of play, Im glad this is out and for narrative gamers like ne it adds some nice ready made easy to use extra options for different games/forces. If you are that concerned about commanders then why not just run a standard Kill team only tournament yourself? Im sure a lot of other gamers would be willing to participate in that

No doubt there will be. And Like I said, I don't mind the expansion all that much. The impact it has is all I'm concerned about.

Because as has been joked about here, they're not going to stop with HQs/Commanders. Light Vehicles, Bikes, Cav, are likely going to be the next expansion. I assume that at least, since we saw Thunderwolf Cav in the original Killteam advertisement.

The game will change, and maybe the base game will keep it's identity. I hope it does. It's a fun ruleset in my opinion, and it seems like they're going to keep it 'balanced' in a sense. I guess it's just my concern that the base game will be changed to accommodate more and more expansions, changing the core 100 pt experience in lieu of pushing folk into the new content.

Is it an Unfounded concern? Probably.

 Irbis wrote:
Review of KT Commanders:

Spoiler:

BOLS has as an overview (not a review) as well. Personally, I've never seen them be critical on a 40k new product review (only after the fact when it's popular like ragging on 7th edition game mechanics when 8th was on the way for example) but I'll admit that I only occasionally go to the site. Still, it's probably worth watching even with that caveat.

My issue is that instead of focusing on balancing and fine-tuning the actual KT they're adding powerful new models that will totally upset the balance before it has even been addressed. It will be the same thing as 8th where the early releases will be forgotten and shadowed by the newer, shinier stuff like the current codex creep and it will become unplayable if you don't buy the fourteen books they're going to release, and basically play 500 pts game in KT.

Sure, there's people who'll be willing to play without the expansions at first, but then they'll notice their faction are just more fun with them and won't play without them anymore. I sincerely hope I'm wrong and this is going to be great and balanced but there's no way 41 commanders at once are going to be fine while the actual Core Manual has a fair handful of imbalances (Asuryani being unplayable for example).

And this last line is more personal, but I HATE playing against Nurgle, DG or whatever Flibbity-Slop-I'm-Never-Dying army that is. They're just not fun to play against and have basically made me step back from 8th all by themselves.

 Tiberius501 wrote:

 Redemption wrote:
Ah, Commanders make the game 200 points instead of the 150 of the Rogue Trader expansion.

Ur, does that mean that Rogue Traders suck even harder when they get to use Vhane because they're only 145pts with her? Man... I thought this expansion was going to make the Traders work a little better.

The Starstriders included in the Rogue Trader box come to 100 points plus Elicia. She's anywhere between 45 and 165 points, depending on what level you take her at and what traits you take for her. There's also no limit on the number of Voidsmen you can have in the Kill Team, is you have some lasgun-armed models handy.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 Tiberius501 wrote:

 Redemption wrote:
Ah, Commanders make the game 200 points instead of the 150 of the Rogue Trader expansion.

Ur, does that mean that Rogue Traders suck even harder when they get to use Vhane because they're only 145pts with her? Man... I thought this expansion was going to make the Traders work a little better.

The Starstriders included in the Rogue Trader box come to 100 points plus Elicia. She's anywhere between 45 and 165 points, depending on what level you take her at and what traits you take for her. There's also no limit on the number of Voidsmen you can have in the Kill Team, is you have some lasgun-armed models handy.

the standard voidsman is 3 max

Did GW tell all the Youtubers not to reveal what the specialisms do or something? I've watched several videos now and all of them have been extremely light on actual rules content, the closest they have gotten is talking about datasheets that are functionally identical to the 40k version and specifically not telling us how leveling up a commander changes those statistics.

$70 for the Commanders set seems a bit much. I guess I'll hold off and see how it affects the local scene.

Quite tempted by commanders, but the Kill Team I'm mainly playing is Dark Angels Scouts. Adding a Primaris commander feels wrong.

 Eldarain wrote:
$70 for the Commanders set seems a bit much. I guess I'll hold off and see how it affects the local scene.

Expansion + 40K model and skip the "special" stuff in the $70 box. GW is about to find the limit of their "magic".

Herbington wrote:
Quite tempted by commanders, but the Kill Team I'm mainly playing is Dark Angels Scouts. Adding a Primaris commander feels wrong.

"The wallet wants what the wallet wants - or else GW does not care."

Emily Dickinson, 2018.

Little surprised at the flat price point on the commanders. Some cards and tokens does not make the Primaris characters palatable at $35, And they sure don’t justify the price bump for the less expensive characters.

I guess if you exclusively played KT it might be a little more acceptable. You can justify spending a little extra on what amounts to a centerpiece unit that you only really need one of to cap off your army. But looking at it from a wider perspective, it’s a bit crazy.

I just bought the Kill Team book, started gathering my forces, and I'm feeling a bit regretful for all the reasons mentioned above by others.

I'm going to try to arrange and line up some opponents who want to play just the standard 100 point games for a while. If everyone rushes to commanders at 200, and more inevitable purchases for me, I may just sell it.

I haven't played so I'm not being doom and gloom. Following this thread and I'll try and assess by playing ASAP, but this is more than a bit of a turn-off.

 Shrapnelsmile wrote:
I just bought the Kill Team book, started gathering my forces, and I'm feeling a bit regretful for all the reasons mentioned above by others.

I'm going to try to arrange and line up some opponents who want to play just the standard 100 point games for a while. If everyone rushes to commanders at 200, and more inevitable purchases for me, I may just sell it.

I haven't played so I'm not being doom and gloom. Following this thread and I'll try and assess by playing ASAP, but this is more than a bit of a turn-off.

More content is a turn off?

 Inquisitor Kallus wrote:


the standard voidsman is 3 max

Is it? I missed that on the data sheet. I’ll look again.

CassianSol wrote:

 Shrapnelsmile wrote:
I just bought the Kill Team book, started gathering my forces, and I'm feeling a bit regretful for all the reasons mentioned above by others.

I'm going to try to arrange and line up some opponents who want to play just the standard 100 point games for a while. If everyone rushes to commanders at 200, and more inevitable purchases for me, I may just sell it.

I haven't played so I'm not being doom and gloom. Following this thread and I'll try and assess by playing ASAP, but this is more than a bit of a turn-off.

More content is a turn off?

Sometimes.... yes it is

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 Inquisitor Kallus wrote:


the standard voidsman is 3 max

Is it? I missed that on the data sheet. I’ll look again.

3 max. You take the 100pts team as it is.

CassianSol wrote:

 Shrapnelsmile wrote:
I just bought the Kill Team book, started gathering my forces, and I'm feeling a bit regretful for all the reasons mentioned above by others.

I'm going to try to arrange and line up some opponents who want to play just the standard 100 point games for a while. If everyone rushes to commanders at 200, and more inevitable purchases for me, I may just sell it.

I haven't played so I'm not being doom and gloom. Following this thread and I'll try and assess by playing ASAP, but this is more than a bit of a turn-off.

More content is a turn off?

100 points will be the standard for competitive play. All the supplements for Kill Team are completely optional. The commanders supplement is geared towards all modes of play, but it's scenario driven and likely to be seen in campaign play / narrative play. It's completely up to people if they include it, and plenty of the scenarios in the book don't have commanders on one side.

I'm gonna go *way* out on a limb here and say any group that is playing KT as a regular/primary game is buying into the whole idea of KT, and the most common play will remain around the core game mode, with expansions (particularly ones like Commander where their use is gated behind specific missions/modes, as opposed to "Hey, he's the Wracks datasheet for the Drukhari) being used as an every-so-often variation on the core game mode.


As for the whole "GW is thinking once you've added a Commander and maybe stuff from the next expansion that people might consider trying 40K Prime next": I mean, DUH. GW would be foolish not to, and one of the reasons people have advocated for a robust 40K skirmish game is to provide just such an on ramp for new players. But we are already seeing people that ID just as KT players with no interest in 40K Prime, and hey, that's still just more sales for GW so they are happy with that too (see also, why KT is planned as an ongoing game line).

Alendrel wrote:
I'm gonna go *way* out on a limb here and say any group that is playing KT as a regular/primary game is buying into the whole idea of KT, and the most common play will remain around the core game mode, with expansions (particularly ones like Commander where their use is gated behind specific missions/modes, as opposed to "Hey, he's the Wracks datasheet for the Drukhari) being used as an every-so-often variation on the core game mode.


As for the whole "GW is thinking once you've added a Commander and maybe stuff from the next expansion that people might consider trying 40K Prime next": I mean, DUH. GW would be foolish not to, and one of the reasons people have advocated for a robust 40K skirmish game is to provide just such an on ramp for new players. But we are already seeing people that ID just as KT players with no interest in 40K Prime, and hey, that's still just more sales for GW so they are happy with that too (see also, why KT is planned as an ongoing game line).

Yes, I mean, I am approaching this from the other direction. I can now stop pretending I'm a 40k player despite not having time to complete an army or even play a game for years.
I mam now fully switched to all skirmish games, all the time and have had more games in the past months than I've had since I was a shiftless teenager with no responsibilities.

From Bols

CassianSol wrote:

 Shrapnelsmile wrote:
I just bought the Kill Team book, started gathering my forces, and I'm feeling a bit regretful for all the reasons mentioned above by others.

I'm going to try to arrange and line up some opponents who want to play just the standard 100 point games for a while. If everyone rushes to commanders at 200, and more inevitable purchases for me, I may just sell it.

I haven't played so I'm not being doom and gloom. Following this thread and I'll try and assess by playing ASAP, but this is more than a bit of a turn-off.

More content is a turn off?

Well... this kind of content is a turn off. It feels like it doesn't belong.

 Albertorius wrote:

CassianSol wrote:

 Shrapnelsmile wrote:
I just bought the Kill Team book, started gathering my forces, and I'm feeling a bit regretful for all the reasons mentioned above by others.

I'm going to try to arrange and line up some opponents who want to play just the standard 100 point games for a while. If everyone rushes to commanders at 200, and more inevitable purchases for me, I may just sell it.

I haven't played so I'm not being doom and gloom. Following this thread and I'll try and assess by playing ASAP, but this is more than a bit of a turn-off.

More content is a turn off?

Well... this kind of content is a turn off. It feels like it doesn't belong.

Then don't buy the highly priced, optional add on content! Voila!

Chopstick wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 Inquisitor Kallus wrote:


the standard voidsman is 3 max

Is it? I missed that on the data sheet. I’ll look again.

3 max. You take the 100pts team as it is.

Yeah. Essentially Rogue Trader seems pretty stuck to just its expansion and I’m starting to regret my purchase of it :/

"Isn't that part of the issue though? It stops being KILL TEAM then, and moves on to being sub500pt armies for 40k. Hell, with Commanders in place, it's easy enough for GW to say "Hey look, you've got enough units to run a legal patrol detachment now! Why don't you try 40k?" "

I just had to point this out. This is, without question, the entire purpose of Kill Team existing. As much attention as GW are putting into it, Kill Team is 100% an introductory product into what GW claims is "the hobby". The fact they're doing special boxed sets, etc., doesn't stop it from being an elaborate introductory game.

What you've just explained is more or less the ladder. Buy Kill Team...play Kill Team. Get bored, look at Commanders...get Commanders...play Commanders, etc. At some point the non-40K player will look longingly at the Space Marine Dreadnought box, or the Imperial Knight box and think "Well, I'm halfway there...so...".

It's the entire point of Kill Team's existence. Thinking otherwise is questionable?

Just under half the "paper" content of Rogue Trader is for 40k, not Kill Team. It even includes a nice heavy card foldout game summary - for the game NOT on the cover of the box.

Tiberius:
Maybe Commanders will have a faction rule set for the RT stuff too? Or rules will come later updating them.

Or nothing, I suppose the more likely option.

Danny76 wrote:
Tiberius:
Maybe Commanders will have a faction rule set for the RT stuff too? Or rules will come later updating them.

Or nothing, I suppose the more likely option.

I can only really see 3 options: 1) they FAQ them to hell and buff them where they need buffing to become viable outside of the expansion. 2) they give them more choices in the Blackstone Fortress game, giving us rules to add them in. 3) they wipe their hands of it and move on.