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 Ghaz wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

Would I be able to field Kroots and/or Vespid as a single Killteam?

Most likely, seeing GW has no other way to fulfill their boast of 'dozens' of factions other than artificially inflate their number by pumping up subfactions...

Not counting Imperial Knights and Renegade Knights, there's already 27 'factions' without adding any additional subfactions.

Boasting about 'dozens' when you don't even have three of these dozens is IMO both silly and kinda false advertising.

Not to mention I have no idea where you saw 27, I counted 24 and even then only if we're super generous and count single-box "factions" and two ancient, metal only armies that will have zero options and customization as equal to modern plastics in context of KT. There is currently 20 'full' armies in the game, not even two dozen...

 kadeton wrote:
There's still a big difference there: "Levelling up" or changing loadout during the game and then resetting everything back to baseline after the game, versus having the changes you make to your team persist between games. That's a vitally important difference, and produces radically different games - the first is much easier to balance fairly and can build a great competitive scene, but the second builds the player's emotional investment and sense of ownership in their team (but is almost always unbalanced to heck). Different players are looking for different things, and no matter what form Kill Team takes, some of them are going to be disappointed.

No, there is really not. Nothing stops you from having campaign in Shadespire with warbands being allowed to keep a portion of upgrades from last game or both teams starting with nonzero resources already in play if you so wish. In Kill Team, though, these 'changes' are largely illusory. To show you why, let's look at say Skaven team. Five very different minis, each with different weapon and rules, nothing stops you from making them into your dudes as each of them is truly unique. Now take a look as Skaven troop box and tell me with a straight face it has even a tenth of the options and individuality of Shadespire team.

Ditto with 40K, I have played enough Kill Team back in the day to know how laughable claims of customizability or uniqueness are. It's bolter/lasgun mooks, all day till Sunday, with maybe the leader and two elite mooks getting any non-standard equipment, and that if your troop box actually has any or you can afford it. And even then, these three are usually focused down first as they are greatest threat and unless new KT is really generous with replacements or healing that is your first and last time you field these non-carbon-copy dudes.

Then there is practicality. Let's suppose there is some sort of outlandish customization and GW actually conjured some extra sprues from thin air somehow. Are you really going to modify your minis every game? Repaint? What if you want to play a game with new guy and take a new team to equalize playground, do you rip off all these extra upgrades and/of buy new troop box? If not, what is the advantage over Shadespire, again?

With Shadespire-like approach, you can buy cheap team, paint, done, you can play wherever you want with whomever you want, no hassle or WYSIWYG issues, done.

I have a feeling you guys are going to be 'slightly' disappointed when you see new KT in action and it will look nothing like the pretty image you painted in your dreams.

 eflix29 wrote:
Kill Team ? More like Kill Team 2018
Google " kill team rulebook" and you will find the free rulebook they released in 2013 iirc, before they priced it in 2016, and it will be 95% the same as the new one.
The usable units in the current edition are :

Spoiler:

The Warhammer Community article where Kill Team was announced wrote:
From one-off matched play battles to in-depth narrative campaigns where your fighters grow and evolve, this edition of Kill Team is a fully fledged game in its own right – it doesn’t use the existing Warhammer 40,000 rules set (but it’s just as thrilling!).

Come on people, it's not hard to be informed.

 Irbis wrote:

Boasting about 'dozens' when you don't even have three of these dozens is IMO both silly and kinda false advertising.

This is still GW you are talking about

 Zethnar wrote:

 eflix29 wrote:
Kill Team ? More like Kill Team 2018
Google " kill team rulebook" and you will find the free rulebook they released in 2013 iirc, before they priced it in 2016, and it will be 95% the same as the new one.
The usable units in the current edition are :

Spoiler:

The Warhammer Community article where Kill Team was announced wrote:
From one-off matched play battles to in-depth narrative campaigns where your fighters grow and evolve, this edition of Kill Team is a fully fledged game in its own right – it doesn’t use the existing Warhammer 40,000 rules set (but it’s just as thrilling!).

Come on people, it's not hard to be informed.

But what could it be really?

 Irbis wrote:
Then there is practicality. Let's suppose there is some sort of outlandish customization and GW actually conjured some extra sprues from thin air somehow. Are you really going to modify your minis every game? Repaint? What if you want to play a game with new guy and take a new team to equalize playground, do you rip off all these extra upgrades and/of buy new troop box? If not, what is the advantage over Shadespire, again?

There's this game GW makes. Called Necromunda. Heard of it? Yeah.

Well that's a pretty customisable game. Why couldn't Kill-Team be a slightly less detailed but slightly larger scope version of that? Larger forces, comparatively, with few options, but still enough that you can customise. Doesn't have to be after every game, but changing weapons and people advancing isn't as an outlandish thing as you make it.

Neronoxx wrote:

 Zethnar wrote:

 eflix29 wrote:
Kill Team ? More like Kill Team 2018
Google " kill team rulebook" and you will find the free rulebook they released in 2013 iirc, before they priced it in 2016, and it will be 95% the same as the new one.
The usable units in the current edition are :

Spoiler:

The Warhammer Community article where Kill Team was announced wrote:
From one-off matched play battles to in-depth narrative campaigns where your fighters grow and evolve, this edition of Kill Team is a fully fledged game in its own right – it doesn’t use the existing Warhammer 40,000 rules set (but it’s just as thrilling!).

Come on people, it's not hard to be informed.

But what could it be really?

Until they show more of it I don't know, some kind of skirmish focused ruleset no doubt. But insisting that it's the one thing they specifically said it wasn't isn't helpful.

I'm not insisting anything, more questioning GW's ability to write something 40k that isn't 40k.
Like, are we switching to d20's, staying with D6s, keeping strength and toughness, etc, etc?
How Original do we honestly expect GW to be? Something like warmachine or maybe infinity? Or just closer to DnD 5e?
WHAT IS IT REALLY??!!

I'd say what we're getting is a modified Necromunda rule set, and as that was based on the older Necromunda rule set which in turn was based on the 40K 2nd Ed rule set, the circle is now complete.

 Irbis wrote:
No, there is really not. Nothing stops you from having campaign in Shadespire with warbands being allowed to keep a portion of upgrades from last game or both teams starting with nonzero resources already in play if you so wish. In Kill Team, though, these 'changes' are largely illusory. To show you why, let's look at say Skaven team. Five very different minis, each with different weapon and rules, nothing stops you from making them into your dudes as each of them is truly unique. Now take a look as Skaven troop box and tell me with a straight face it has even a tenth of the options and individuality of Shadespire team.

Nothing stops you from having a campaign in Shadespire except for the lack of rule support to do so. It's not how the game is designed to play.

You need to decide whether you're trying to discuss the customisation of physical models, or the customisation of in-game characters. The first is mostly irrelevant, in my opinion - people who feel they need more model variety will proxy or kitbash, same as always.

The second is the real point of contention. You say your Skaven in Shadespire are each "truly unique", but at the start of every game you play, your Spiteclaw is exactly the same as every other Skaven player's Spiteclaw. You can modify him over the course of the game, but in the end he goes back to being the same generic Spiteclaw that everybody else has, every time. Spiteclaw is GW's character, not yours - you can use him for a while, but he will always go back to being what GW made him. You had a great build in one game where he was super awesome, and you really look forward to using it again? Sorry, that's not how the game works.

Irbis wrote:Then there is practicality. Let's suppose there is some sort of outlandish customization and GW actually conjured some extra sprues from thin air somehow. Are you really going to modify your minis every game? Repaint? What if you want to play a game with new guy and take a new team to equalize playground, do you rip off all these extra upgrades and/of buy new troop box? If not, what is the advantage over Shadespire, again?

With Shadespire-like approach, you can buy cheap team, paint, done, you can play wherever you want with whomever you want, no hassle or WYSIWYG issues, done.

Special skills and abilities don't require extra sprues or model customisation. That's why the continuity between games matters - you're building an attachment to who the person is, not what they look like or what equipment they have.

The important thing is that it takes time to build that connection. A model doing a cool thing in a single game is just a throwaway anecdote.

Irbis wrote:I have a feeling you guys are going to be 'slightly' disappointed when you see new KT in action and it will look nothing like the pretty image you painted in your dreams.

Have I painted a pretty image? I'm fairly sure the only opinion I've expressed about the game is that no matter how it works, a lot of people are going to be disappointed.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Irbis wrote:
Then there is practicality. Let's suppose there is some sort of outlandish customization and GW actually conjured some extra sprues from thin air somehow. Are you really going to modify your minis every game? Repaint? What if you want to play a game with new guy and take a new team to equalize playground, do you rip off all these extra upgrades and/of buy new troop box? If not, what is the advantage over Shadespire, again?

There's this game GW makes. Called Necromunda. Heard of it? Yeah.

Well that's a pretty customisable game. Why couldn't Kill-Team be a slightly less detailed but slightly larger scope version of that? Larger forces, comparatively, with few options, but still enough that you can customise. Doesn't have to be after every game, but changing weapons and people advancing isn't as an outlandish thing as you make it.

Absolutely used to re-convert and repaint models after games with old Necromunda. That was 30 years ago. It's not the chore some make out, especially not in this age of magnets.

Some of us either don't like painting, are no good at painting, or for the few blessed among us, both. It's nice that you liked doing that, but it's not for everyone.

I was the type of player who armed people with what they had on the miniature, even if it was a converted miniature, and never varied for that. So would it have been more "powerful" to arm all my Delaque's with Lasguns? Sure! But I only had a finite amount of Lasgun gangers, so I took Autogun and Shotgun gangers as well.

For Kill Team I can see them allowing a bit more variety than "You chose Space Marines, so 7 of your guys will have Bolters and nothing else. Ever!".

Neronoxx wrote:

 Zethnar wrote:

 eflix29 wrote:
Kill Team ? More like Kill Team 2018
Google " kill team rulebook" and you will find the free rulebook they released in 2013 iirc, before they priced it in 2016, and it will be 95% the same as the new one.
The usable units in the current edition are :

Spoiler:

The Warhammer Community article where Kill Team was announced wrote:
From one-off matched play battles to in-depth narrative campaigns where your fighters grow and evolve, this edition of Kill Team is a fully fledged game in its own right – it doesn’t use the existing Warhammer 40,000 rules set (but it’s just as thrilling!).

Come on people, it's not hard to be informed.

But what could it be really?

I have used my Sisters in Kill Team and I think you can use other Agents of the Imperium?

Well hopefully this time they won't forget Inquisitors and Sisters. *cough* Shadow War *cough*

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Well hopefully this time they won't forget Inquisitors and Sisters. *cough* Shadow War *cough*

Yeah we got them in the Softback - one of the reasons I bought it

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Absolutely used to re-convert and repaint models after games with old Necromunda. That was 30 years ago. It's not the chore some make out, especially not in this age of magnets.

I'd sometimes set up a new, similar model with appropriate or similar weaponry. I'm not one who is willing to chop up and rebuild my "completed" models except for extreme cases that then become permanent situations (Necro gangers are almost never in a "permanent" state). I'd probably do the same these days in preference to specifically building every model with magnetised arms in advance of a campaign.

I'm happier having a figure I have painted, and modelled to be interesting to look at (so not WYSIWYG), and then having cards, or stats that change. Maybe I'm just old, but when we used to play D&D, we didn't spend ages remodelling our figure just because I swapped out a dagger for a short sword?

To me, I would make a kill team of unique looking figures (battle worn marines, scrap necrons, etc), identify them with a number or name on base rim, and then say "Dave there, he has a plasma gun" even though he's got a bolt pistol in each hand, and one in his mouth. As it's a smaller squad based game, it shouldn't be too much of an issue?

Is it time for the WYSIWYG argument again? I don't like doing that, so I do as Azazelx does. Most of my friends do the same thing. If I had to play against someone who isn't as restrained, I'd prefer that a model had a completely unrecognisable weapon rather than "this plasma gun is actually a meltagun". Infinity's approach - of putting a model or two with only a pistol or melee weapon into box sets, so that model can represent any option - is less objectionable.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Is it time for the WYSIWYG argument again?

Sorry!

Kill Team was mentioned at the AdeptiCon seminar, but only that it would be a system independent of 40K (which we already knew).

...and @H.B.M.C, looks like we'll have new models for SoB Kill Teams in 2019.

Kill Team stand alone
Hank from adepticon will get early look

So, will we have information about the rules next days?

I'm mostly wondering about what the points size of the teams will be..... staying with @200 or creeping higher?

With the previous edition 200 pts was a good sweet spot. It'll be interesting to see if this version uses its own points system for team building.

I hope it allows for some vehicles. I get that it's meant to be small-scale skirmish, but I don't see a Dread or a Chimera as being too far outside of the scope of the game. No Baneblades, Land Raiders or Knights - sure - but I don't want arbitrary restrictions on units (can't take anything with a 2+ save, can't take anything AP2 or better, etc. like the old rules).

 schoon wrote:
...and @H.B.M.C, looks like we'll have new models for SoB Kill Teams in 2019.

Both good and bad.

Good: Yay! New Sisters minis. That's awesome.
Bad: No model/no rule is still in effect, so any rules we get now won't incorporate any new stuff.

A Chimera may be too big, but I would like to see War Walkers, Dreadnoughts, Sentinels, Ironstrider Ballistarius, Kataphrons, Kastelans, Talos and Cronos Engines and other models like these.

From the video, it seems that this Kill Team will be more like an expanded Shadow War rather than a smaller 40k. (since it was started due to the popularity of Shadow war) As such I expect terminators/ogryns to be some of the "largest" models used. Dreadnoughts, Crisis suits, war walkers will most likely be too large for the scope of the game. (The largest model shown was the wolf rider) This is of course pure conjecture.

If I was to guess, I'd say having no models with 10 or more Wds would be a good bet. In 40k, it's already the cutoff between "normal" characters and "huge" characters, and the point at which models get a degrading statline, so it seems like a natural breakpoint for a skirmish game. It would allow the smaller dreadnoughts, war walkers etc, and potentially a few light vehicles like Starweavers (though I wouldn't be surprised by a restriction based on movement speed in addition).

That said, since it's a different system, who knows? Even talking about points totals doesn't really mean anything, since there's no guarantee the points costs will work the same as in 40k.

I hope Primarchs/demon princes are not allowed.

Seeing as this will be a stand alone product I'm sure each faction will have a dedicated list of do's and don'ts with regards to units you can field.

Has the Dreadnought in this edition tanked hard or something? In the previous edition a Sentinel or Ironstrider was about as stompy as you could get with walkers.

Fielding vehicles would be nice, but for me personally it wouldn't be a massive loss either if they were not allowed, putting a pure focus on small squads of infantry and critters doing their thing.

Super-heavies are obviously out, though it wouldn't surprise me if they somehow managed to recycle one or two of the old missions from the previous edition, where a Kill Team had to take down a regular tank or a partially shut down super-heavy.

I find this exciting.

But as a Tyranid player I'm used to being disappointed with my options every time a skirmish game comes around. Warriors are cool, yeah, but please let me use other stuff.

Like my dream kill team is a well-rounded Warrior or Zoanthrope leader, a terrifying Lictor elite, a couple of Genestealers to do work, and 6 or so Gaunts to do... death.

Still feel like Mordheim had it more right than anything since... a few distinct hero types, a few distinct trooper types, and at least one heavy/elite badass. Give me that mix all day long.

 BrookM wrote:
Seeing as this will be a stand alone product I'm sure each faction will have a dedicated list of do's and don'ts with regards to units you can field.

Has the Dreadnought in this edition tanked hard or something? In the previous edition a Sentinel or Ironstrider was about as stompy as you could get with walkers.

Fielding vehicles would be nice, but for me personally it wouldn't be a massive loss either if they were not allowed, putting a pure focus on small squads of infantry and critters doing their thing.

Super-heavies are obviously out, though it wouldn't surprise me if they somehow managed to recycle one or two of the old missions from the previous edition, where a Kill Team had to take down a regular tank or a partially shut down super-heavy.

Aye, a Dread might be cool, but tbh I'm more interested in being able to make up a mixed team, for example some Fire Warriors, a couple of Pathfinders, and some Kroot, or some Skitarii, a couple of Techpriests, and a Sicarii or two, that sort of setup. I'd even kinda like "soup" to still be a thing, despite how many regard it - having an Inquisitor & a few henchman paired off with a Deathwatch or Grey Knight marine would be brilliant. Something more along the line of the HH Strike Force army selection than the traditional Kill Team thing of picking Codex units up to a smaller point value than normal with a few restrictions. EDIT: Aye Altruizine has it about right, something Mordheim-ish in format and on the upper end of that in terms of force size, like 20-ish models a side.