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Made in us
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 Kroem wrote:
With both Pick and Horror channels insisting, I'm finally getting around to watching Star Trek Enterprise!

I don't know how it was received at the time. but I'm really enjoying it. Sexy Spock is creating some interesting friction with them sweet Southern boys driving the ship and the the friendship between Dr Phlox and nerdy Riho feels pretty natural.

Most importantly I guess is that it has those juicy moral quandaries.
I just watched an episode debating about whether to parachute in a cure to a deadly disease and whether the junior partner in a successful co-existence is being exploited.
Poor quantum leap guy was getting tied up in knots!

(Couple more episodes and I'll start remembering their names for sure XD)


As the resident Enterprise apologist, I'm glad you're enjoying it! I still think it has the best pilot episode of any Trek series. And Dr. Phlox is in my top five Trek characters of all time. It definitely deserves its reputation as being sloppy sometimes, but overall I think it's a very underrated show.

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I’ll always love Enterprise for the SFDebris Neelix memes and the FirstTVDrama snark.

   
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Dorset, England

Lower Decks seems very much a young person's humour thing, lots of winking at the camera, meta references and 1000mph pacing.
I realise is isn't aimed at me and hope that it brings younger fans in who go on to watch TNG and DS9 and learn how great Trek can be!

What's annoying is that the concept is great, a proper Trek series set around the midshipman's berth on some tired out old ship of the line would be a really interesting perspective on Starfleet when you aren't one of their star performers.

Yea Dr Phlox is already standing out as a character, weird how the doctors tend to be so. The irascible Bones, Voyager's EMH, Julian Bashir etc.
   
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I like some of Enterprise:

Dr Phlox is great, can't go wrong with sexy Vulcans (and they exploit that to the max with the Decom scenes!), I quite liked Reed to start with and even the engineer is ok - the Captain is a bit annoying but better than Janeaway. Hoshi is cute (but better in the Mirror Uiverse -- but then they ALL are)


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 Overread wrote:
TNG Data and Picard were close, but not abnormally so. It's clear that in the time after the series, when the movies were set, that Picard and Data became closer. Perhaps in part because in that time Picard was seeing some of the rest of his crew moving on whilst Data never had quite the same drive to leave.

Though I think whilst that is a good "in world" argument its not really best presented through the films.

But it makes a sensible point to at least stick with that development, even if its not something some of us find the best. It at least means that the series is remaining true to its original source material - to the lore of the setting.


Picard and Data almost had a father/son dynamic going on.

Data was being of untold potential, yet for all his intelligence, really quite naive outside of his experience. Picard the middle aged man of rules and honour and that.

Measure of a Man is a wonderful episode, as it not only explores relative morality and the nature of sentience, but we see Picard absolutely go to bat for a crew member - without his actions feeling specific to Data. This is reinforced in Drumhead of course, though I forget which came first.

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Remember the concept of Star Trek Lower Decks is inspired by an episode of TNG in which Picard sends a young Ensign off to die in a top secret mission. The episode ending with none of her friends knowing why she actually died and Picard looking grimly out into space....

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/29 04:12:36


 
   
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Dorset, England

 BlackoCatto wrote:
Remember the concept of Star Trek Lower Decks is inspired by an episode of TNG in which Picard sends a young Ensign off to die in a top secret mission. The episode ending with none of her friends knowing why she actually died and Picard looking grimly out into space....

Ah man that's soul crushing
I can just imagine some earnest screenplay writer pitching this sober and introspective look at the human cost of "exploring strange new worlds, seeking out new life and new civilizations and boldly going where no man has gone before".

The executives probably looked him straight in eye, promised to preserve his artistic vision and then immediately phoned James Woods
   
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Preacher of the Emperor






 Kroem wrote:
 BlackoCatto wrote:
Remember the concept of Star Trek Lower Decks is inspired by an episode of TNG in which Picard sends a young Ensign off to die in a top secret mission. The episode ending with none of her friends knowing why she actually died and Picard looking grimly out into space....

Ah man that's soul crushing
I can just imagine some earnest screenplay writer pitching this sober and introspective look at the human cost of "exploring strange new worlds, seeking out new life and new civilizations and boldly going where no man has gone before".

The executives probably looked him straight in eye, promised to preserve his artistic vision and then immediately phoned James Woods


Before we get out the torches and pitchforks lets actually analyze that: Mike McMahan is the series creator and has been from the start - no one ejected due to 'creative differences' as far as we know. The safe bet is they laid out feelers for a comedy animated series and he pitched the concept to them.

Now, fans have been pondering the idea of a Lower Decks series ever since the TNG episode of the same name aired - and I guess it could be disappointing that that series finally materialized as an animated comedy show - but I frankly don't think Ronald Wilkerson or Jean Louise Matthias are losing any sleep over this one.

   
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UK

I think most fans are going to be ok with the comedy series because in the end they generally sit in their own setting; they don't try to change the core lore or such of the setting, they simply poke fun at it from the side.

Heck if anything it might actually generate enough interest in the concept of a "Lower Decks" series as a serious concept. It would be neat to see since most ST tends to focus almost exclusively on the top bridge crew and top crew in other sectors - DS9 is one of the few where we don't exclusively do that and it focuses on shopkeepers, kids (who actually grow and develop and change); lower staff and such to the point where they are characters not just drop in names and faces that appear once and never again (or twice and never again).


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Dorset, England

Yea like I said if it brings in more fans and generates interest that's cool with me! Just not the sort of thing I can get excited about :-)
   
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 Overread wrote:
I think most fans are going to be ok with the comedy series because in the end they generally sit in their own setting; they don't try to change the core lore or such of the setting, they simply poke fun at it from the side.

Heck if anything it might actually generate enough interest in the concept of a "Lower Decks" series as a serious concept. It would be neat to see since most ST tends to focus almost exclusively on the top bridge crew and top crew in other sectors - DS9 is one of the few where we don't exclusively do that and it focuses on shopkeepers, kids (who actually grow and develop and change); lower staff and such to the point where they are characters not just drop in names and faces that appear once and never again (or twice and never again).



Who commands when the main command are off to bed?

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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Who commands when the main command are off to bed?


Who indeed?



   
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Texas

I, too, have just gotten involved in watching STE, with Archer at the helm. There are sure some crazy plot holes, as you can see they are trying to set up the initial use of a lot of technology, but it works/does not work as the plot permits.

- How can you visit a planet 'incognito' using your 'translator' device and the person not know you are using a translation device?
- Can someone refresh my memory and help with the warp speed calculations? Isn't each warp factor an increase in light speed, as WF 1 is the speed of light and WF 2 is twice the speed of light? Or is it a factor, as in each WF increase is an exponential increase?

There just seems to be a lot of suspended believe in STE, but I am thoroughly enjoying the show and characters, frankly except Bakula - he really has no warmth or wisdom displayed and seems the need to issue 'a direct order' to his crew way to often. Every word from the captain is an implied order.

Shatner had a glib coolness and personality that you enjoyed.
Picard was the epitome of wisdom and honor within in a very reflective soul.
Archer seems like the character is hard charging to prove himself and lacks any emotional intelligence to relate to anyone.

i am two episodes into season 2 and do look forward to continuing.

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- How can you visit a planet 'incognito' using your 'translator' device and the person not know you are using a translation device?

Shh. Its a suspension of disbelief prop that only goes so far.
Given the way they've described them, I'm not sure it works at all if both parties don't have them.

If it does work with only one, it would be very obviously artificial, as a device would be providing words that the person obviously isn't saying with their mouth.

- Can someone refresh my memory and help with the warp speed calculations? Isn't each warp factor an increase in light speed, as WF 1 is the speed of light and WF 2 is twice the speed of light? Or is it a factor, as in each WF increase is an exponential increase?

I would think exponential, otherwise its still too slow:
If you've got 10 light years between you and your destination,
10 years (WF1), 5 (WF2), 3.3 (WF3), 2.5 (WF4), 2 years (WF5) is still pretty non-functional for a large political entity.

It would really have to scale better than that.

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Preacher of the Emperor






Warp speeds have always been presented as an exponential thing, even in TOS... though exactly what rate that graph jumps is different between every series, and even episodes within the same series.

In universe there is apparently a significant reorg of the chart between the TOS and TNG era, as Voyager presented Warp 10 as a state of infinite velocity where the traveler is at all points in the universe at once, while TOS and TAS had a number of ships appear that could go anywhere from warp 13 to 30.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/01/29 18:19:16


   
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Is the difference not Warp Factor and Warp Speed, with advances made between TOS and TNG?

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I think Warp Factor and Warp Speed are both shortenings of the same 'Time-Warp Factor' describing the function of the engines.

In-universe, the difference between TOS warp ratings and TNG warp ratings is a difference in the central equation used to calculate warp factor against resultant velocity (adopted in-universe in 2312). The end result is an equation that results in TNG warp evening out to faster than TOS', hitting infinity at warp 10.

With wf being 'warp factor' and c being the speed of light, TOS warp speed is calculated thusly: v = (wf^3)*c
and TNG's warp speed is: v = (wf^(10/3))*c

Out of universe, it was apparently Gene's idea, because disliked writers' tendency to introduce higher and higher warp speeds to introduce tension in the story.

In universe, we actually have a lot of examples of ships going at 'warp speed' in order to remain stationary - and apparently there's a lot of other factors of subspace, space debris, gas nebulae, etc, that also impact warp speed.

At least, that's what Memory Alpha says.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/29 19:06:32


   
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Deep Frier of Mount Doom

Yeah, it used to be IIRC from the TNG tech manual (or possibly an old FASA RPG book) that the old scale was to the power of 3 (so Warp 3 was 27c) and the new one was logarithmic with Warp 10 equal to infinite speed. Later on I believe it was established that you turn into an amphibian and mate with your commanding officer if you reach it.
   
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 warboss wrote:
Yeah, it used to be IIRC from the TNG tech manual (or possibly an old FASA RPG book) that the old scale was to the power of 3 (so Warp 3 was 27c) and the new one was logarithmic with Warp 10 equal to infinite speed. Later on I believe it was established that you turn into an amphibian and mate with your commanding officer if you reach it.


That episode was removed from canon.

... but Lower Decks seems to indicate someone else did it.

   
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 Captain Joystick wrote:

That episode was removed from canon.


Link please!

My personal fan theory is that the mating took place in all space and time simultaneously and that their clearly genetically superior coffee addicted descendants were the actual predecessors of the Voth explaining the similarity in DNA with normal earthlings. It's a work in progress though...
   
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 Captain Joystick wrote:
 warboss wrote:
Yeah, it used to be IIRC from the TNG tech manual (or possibly an old FASA RPG book) that the old scale was to the power of 3 (so Warp 3 was 27c) and the new one was logarithmic with Warp 10 equal to infinite speed. Later on I believe it was established that you turn into an amphibian and mate with your commanding officer if you reach it.


That episode was removed from canon.

... but Lower Decks seems to indicate someone else did it.


Could they not have removed Voyager from canon entirely

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How so? Did a later episode write it out, or was it by executive fiat?

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warboss wrote:
 Captain Joystick wrote:

That episode was removed from canon.


Link please!

My personal fan theory is that the mating took place in all space and time simultaneously and that their clearly genetically superior coffee addicted descendants were the actual predecessors of the Voth explaining the similarity in DNA with normal earthlings. It's a work in progress though...


Don Qui Hotep wrote:How so? Did a later episode write it out, or was it by executive fiat?


I stand corrected!

There's a later Voyager episode called 'Day of Honor' that people used to cite as decanonizing Threshold because Paris said he never traveled at transwarp speeds - actually he says he never 'navigated a transwarp conduit' or something to that effect.

So... alas, Threshold remains canon. Along with Paris and Janeway's salamander babies.

   
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 Captain Joystick wrote:

So... alas, Threshold remains canon. Along with Paris and Janeway's salamander babies.


Look on the bright side. At least it wasn't Data and Picard who went Warp 10... although that would explain their sudden closeness in Picard though if they had a prior romatic Salamander/Apple II relationship... hrmmm...
   
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Oh hey, apparently the salamander sex episode just turned 25 years old yesterday!

 
   
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So I saw all of the Below Decks - my thoughts


It's ok when its got a story to tell in the episode which isn't built entirely around a single gag reference to ST. It's almost as if there's two writing teams, one writing characters and story and the other mostly writing overly prolonged gag references that fill an entire episode.
It stuffers through the whole thing with rushed delivery, every scene and character feels like they are rushing their lines or that its been sped up by a few milliseconds.

There's some good elements in there, but it just seems to get hung up with its own jokes. It feels like late season Futurama or the many "Family Guy" style comedies. When they can push out a story driven episode it comes together, but the majority is stand alone jokes and overrun themes.

Perhaps a second season might help it find its feet, though I think not. It's not bad, its just not quite as good as it perhaps could have been and its a different style of comedy to the sort that I enjoy/engage with.

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If you do like Below Decks, check out Final Space. Very much a long running story rather than episodic. Same style humor/animation. Surprisingly powerful emotional moments. Really can’t wait for a third season.

 
   
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 AduroT wrote:
Oh hey, apparently the salamander sex episode just turned 25 years old yesterday!


Which means so did their offspring by the transitive nature of time, space, and tv!
   
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My pet theory is that Warp Factor is a measure of input rather than output.

It's how many times you've folded space around the ship, Warp 1, folded it one time. Warp 4, 4 times. Kind of like RPMs in your engine or fuel consumption, vs your actual speed.

How fast that makes you go depends on subspace conditions and suchwot, so Warp 4 might get you somewhere real soon in one episode, or take weeks in another.

That way Warp Speed is exactly as fast as the plot requires.

 
   
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 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
My pet theory is that Warp Factor is a measure of input rather than output.

It's how many times you've folded space around the ship, Warp 1, folded it one time. Warp 4, 4 times. Kind of like RPMs in your engine or fuel consumption, vs your actual speed.

How fast that makes you go depends on subspace conditions and suchwot, so Warp 4 might get you somewhere real soon in one episode, or take weeks in another.

That way Warp Speed is exactly as fast as the plot requires.


So basically like travelling through the warp in 40k but without navigators? STD fidget spinning being the exception with Stamets and the space bear of course...
   
 
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