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 Mysterio wrote:
Problem is, did Red Sparrow already fill that niche?

Or, is it a story anyone want to see?

That's a good example. I haven't watched Red Sparrow because from the trailers, it doesn't seem like it's going to deliver anything that Atomic Blonde didn't already do, and better. I suspect that a Black Widow movie would fall even further into that hole.

Granted, the idea of a human getting magic space powers and becoming Superman isn't particularly original either, but the more generalized the trope is, the more repeatable I guess it feels? Whereas cold war combloc indoctrination and intrigue seems really, really specific.

I don't think Red Sparrow is a big enough deal to warrant comparison.

No one will remember that film in a year's time. A Black Widow film? That'll get attention.

 Ouze wrote:

 Mysterio wrote:
Problem is, did Red Sparrow already fill that niche?

Or, is it a story anyone want to see?

That's a good example. I haven't watched Red Sparrow because from the trailers, it doesn't seem like it's going to deliver anything that Atomic Blonde didn't already do, and better. I suspect that a Black Widow movie would fall even further into that hole.

Granted, the idea of a human getting magic space powers and becoming Superman isn't particularly original either, but the more generalized the trope is, the more repeatable I guess it feels? Whereas cold war combloc indoctrination and intrigue seems really, really specific.

Weird - how many male spy/assassins/hitman films do we have one at any one time - why is more than one too much for a female lead?

 Mr Morden wrote:
Weird - how many male spy/assassins/hitman films do we have one at any one time - why is more than one too much for a female lead?

I don't think the gender dynamic comes into play, and that's not how I was framing it. I think when you have too many fairly similar movies come out close to each other one is going to suffer: How many people saw Deep Impact and Armageddon both in theaters?. A Black Widow movie that is a story about how she was indoctrinated by the Soviets into becoming a spy and then counterspying is dipping into the exact niche that Atomic Blonde and Red Sparrow have already tread that perhaps a studio would worry it's over-saturated; the third cold war intrigue piece set in the exact same timeframe, and if they had proceeded with BW along the original rumored timeline, they all would have dropped within the same year, right?

OTOH, both Red Sparrow and Atomic Blonde did pretty well so maybe it wouldn't matter. Maybe the MCU movies are immune to market saturation (or at least, they're the Armageddon to DC's Deep Impact).

 Ouze wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Weird - how many male spy/assassins/hitman films do we have one at any one time - why is more than one too much for a female lead?

I don't think the gender dynamic comes into play, and that's not how I was framing it. I think when you have too many fairly similar movies come out close to each other one is going to suffer: How many people saw Deep Impact and Armageddon both in theaters?. A Black Widow movie that is a story about how she was indoctrinated by the Soviets into becoming a spy and then counterspying is dipping into the exact niche that Atomic Blonde and Red Sparrow have already tread that perhaps a studio would worry it's over-saturated; the third cold war intrigue piece set in the exact same timeframe, and if they had proceeded with BW along the original rumored timeline, they all would have dropped within the same year, right?

OTOH, both Red Sparrow and Atomic Blonde did pretty well so maybe it wouldn't matter. Maybe the MCU movies are immune to market saturation (or at least, they're the Armageddon to DC's Deep Impact).

Atomic Blonde is very different to Red Sparrow - she is a British spy investigating her lovers death and dealing with the various agencies. Its like saying Bond is the same as Mission Impossible, Fast and Furious or John Wick? Yeah they both have Assassins/spies in them but not the same and they coexist with no issues.

Plenty of room for more spy/assassin girls in films I think

Also currently, setting any film in the MCU is a huge immediate boost to any film's prospects - Having a Black Widow film should have worked - not sure why they didn't do it - whether they had the issue with Women can;t sell Superhero films or if Scarlet was unavailable for a full film or whatever I don't know.

Looking forward to Cap Marvel and hopefully a BW film as well. I don't know how long Scarlet has on her MCU contract?

I don't think there is a solid answer on how long she has left, at least not by my quick searches.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Also currently, setting any film in the MCU is a huge immediate boost to any film's prospects - Having a Black Widow film should have worked - not sure why they didn't do it - whether they had the issue with Women can;t sell Superhero films or if Scarlet was unavailable for a full film or whatever I don't know.

In an industry notorious for “what have you done lately?”, Scarlett has bombed hard in probably her biggest solo budgeted film. Granted, Ghost in the Shell had plenty of other baggage that led to it bombing, but a decent bomb will taint an actors image for some time. I believe she had a dramedy movie bomb that same summer as well.

Regardless, I thought that they had signed on a female director to make a BW movie ?

 Mr Morden wrote:
Also currently, setting any film in the MCU is a huge immediate boost to any film's prospects - Having a Black Widow film should have worked - not sure why they didn't do it - whether they had the issue with Women can;t sell Superhero films or if Scarlet was unavailable for a full film or whatever I don't know.

CM is an interesting test (or maybe more of a quiz). A female-led superhero film should find its audience, but Carol Danvers isn't close to Princess Diana in terms of cultural awareness and personal attachment. Even the name Captain Marvel was previously owned by the lightning bolt guy and the guy with the nega bands. You can see how this movie might not do well.

And yet the immense power of the Marvel brand has carried other questionable characters across the finish line quite nicely. Still, while CM will figure into the second part of Infinity War, it's also clearly not going to give the answers people are seeking or advance the main storyline. And the box office is probably going to be more reliant on the US market than most because of the female lead.

So my guess is that it'll do well, north of Ant-Man and the Wasp, but south of Wonder Woman and well south of Black Panther.

Black Panther was a phenomenon. A movie could be a smash-hit money-machine and still be well south of Black Panther.

 gorgon wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Also currently, setting any film in the MCU is a huge immediate boost to any film's prospects - Having a Black Widow film should have worked - not sure why they didn't do it - whether they had the issue with Women can;t sell Superhero films or if Scarlet was unavailable for a full film or whatever I don't know.

CM is an interesting test (or maybe more of a quiz). A female-led superhero film should find its audience, but Carol Danvers isn't close to Princess Diana in terms of cultural awareness and personal attachment. Even the name Captain Marvel was previously owned by the lightning bolt guy and the guy with the nega bands. You can see how this movie might not do well.

And yet the immense power of the Marvel brand has carried other questionable characters across the finish line quite nicely. Still, while CM will figure into the second part of Infinity War, it's also clearly not going to give the answers people are seeking or advance the main storyline.

I wonder if there's a possibility that we do get some 'main storyline' advancement in CM - maybe even just a little bit, as an end credit thing?

 Ouze wrote:
How many people saw Deep Impact and Armageddon both in theaters?

Ahem...

I did.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
How many people saw Deep Impact and Armageddon both in theaters?

Ahem...

I did.

We always wondered.......


There is no way this does as well as Black Panther, and inevitable comparisons between this and Wonder Woman will probably sour the film a bit.

 Mysterio wrote:

I wonder if there's a possibility that we do get some 'main storyline' advancement in CM - maybe even just a little bit, as an end credit thing?

One of the MCU's big secrets is simply that for all the feeling of interconnectivity, pretty much 100% of the main storyline advancement has been in the end credits. The movies themselves are for the the most part, remarkably self contained.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Black Panther was a phenomenon. A movie could be a smash-hit money-machine and still be well south of Black Panther.

Sure, but it seems pretty clear that Marvel's hoping for a cultural boost like WW and BP experienced. It doesn't feel like it's going to be there in the same way for this one. But then...Marvel brand!

 gorgon wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Black Panther was a phenomenon. A movie could be a smash-hit money-machine and still be well south of Black Panther.

Sure, but it seems pretty clear that Marvel's hoping for a cultural boost like WW and BP experienced. It doesn't feel like it's going to be there in the same way for this one. But then...Marvel brand!

I agree that the representation boost likely won't manifest. I suspect Marvel thinks similarly, which is why they are only putting a token effort towards the "first female Marvel hero" salient. However, I doubt it will be needed. This is a partially-cosmic Marvel movie post Guardians, Ragnarok and Infinity War; people will want to see it.

Ive got a new theory.

Jude Law is playing Yon Rogg. Everyone else on that team is a classic Mahr Vell villain.

Carol Danvers gets the mind wipe treatment and her Kree mind wipe name is Mahr Vell. The classic comic book Mahr Vell just doesn't exist in the MCU at all. It's just Carol.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
How many people saw Deep Impact and Armageddon both in theaters?

Ahem...

I did.

I did too, but I go to an awful lot of movies

... and a lot of awful movies

Pretty sure I did too. And Volcano and Dante's Peak.

 Lance845 wrote:
Ive got a new theory.

Jude Law is playing Yon Rogg. Everyone else on that team is a classic Mahr Vell villain.

Carol Danvers gets the mind wipe treatment and her Kree mind wipe name is Mahr Vell. The classic comic book Mahr Vell just doesn't exist in the MCU at all. It's just Carol.

You're usually a bit out there but...I think you might be on to something.

And if you're not - well, I will wish (maybe!) that this is in fact what they did - it sounds pretty good.

Depending upon what they actually came up with, of course!

 Lance845 wrote:
Ive got a new theory.

Jude Law is playing Yon Rogg. Everyone else on that team is a classic Mahr Vell villain.

Carol Danvers gets the mind wipe treatment and her Kree mind wipe name is Mahr Vell. The classic comic book Mahr Vell just doesn't exist in the MCU at all. It's just Carol.

I think that's a solid theory, yes.

Marvel likes their fan service though, so perhaps she'll be named that after "a legendary Kree hero from the past". That way they're not saying that he didn't exist, which might trigger some geeks.

Not a bad compromise solution, but no need to slag off on anyone who was hoping for the 'original' to be around too!

(You're not a bit cranky because of the Steelers' "slow start", are you?!? )

 gorgon wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Ive got a new theory.

Jude Law is playing Yon Rogg. Everyone else on that team is a classic Mahr Vell villain.

Carol Danvers gets the mind wipe treatment and her Kree mind wipe name is Mahr Vell. The classic comic book Mahr Vell just doesn't exist in the MCU at all. It's just Carol.

I think that's a solid theory, yes.

Marvel likes their fan service though, so perhaps she'll be named that after "a legendary Kree hero from the past". That way they're not saying that he didn't exist, which might trigger some geeks.

It's not all that dissimilar to what they did with Donald Blake and Thor. Clearly Marvel is happy to condense or remove elements from the comics that just don't really work or are too complicated. Is Thor a spirit of a god in a mortal mans body that switches back and forth or just a god/alien? Easier to just make him the crazy alien.

Is Carol Danvers going to absorb some dna from a kree spy sent to earth to protect it or can she just take his place?

 Lance845 wrote:
Jude Law is playing Yon Rogg. Everyone else on that team is a classic Mahr Vell villain.

Carol Danvers gets the mind wipe treatment and her Kree mind wipe name is Mahr Vell. The classic comic book Mahr Vell just doesn't exist in the MCU at all. It's just Carol.

My theory is that there is no Carol Danvers and she's a brainwashed shape-shifted Skrull, but obviously that's ludicrous.

Your idea, on the other hand, seems reasonable. They've never stated that Jude Law is playing the original Marvel; everyone just assumes he is and they've not denied it. I think him being the real big bad in this could be a very real possibility. And I really like your idea of her Kree name being "Mahr Vell".

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Jude Law is playing Yon Rogg. Everyone else on that team is a classic Mahr Vell villain.

Carol Danvers gets the mind wipe treatment and her Kree mind wipe name is Mahr Vell. The classic comic book Mahr Vell just doesn't exist in the MCU at all. It's just Carol.

My theory is that there is no Carol Danvers and she's a brainwashed shape-shifted Skrull, but obviously that's ludicrous.

It isn't comic book setting crazy, but it feels a bit too much for an MCU movie, especially one that introduces Captain Marvel AND Skrulls to most people for the first time.

Would be a mind blower though, especially if the 'real' Captain Marvel/Carol then shows up?

Probably not happening though.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Your idea, on the other hand, seems reasonable. They've never stated that Jude Law is playing the original Marvel; everyone just assumes he is and they've not denied it. I think him being the real big bad in this could be a very real possibility. And I really like your idea of her Kree name being "Mahr Vell".

The way they're dancing around it, along with some of the blurry stills they've released, it is almost a certainty that Law's character will end up being a bad guy - maybe even the 'Final Boss'. Either because he's a Skrull too, or because he started out good but turned bad because (insert reason). Kind of like how we're getting 'good' Ronan in this movie.

 Lance845 wrote:
It's not all that dissimilar to what they did with Donald Blake and Thor.

Which I was kind of bummed about, by the by. I mean obviously what they did worked but I liked the Donald Blake alter-ego, as well as the consequences of having the alter-ego (ref Infinity Gauntlet, issue 4, for example).

 Ouze wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
It's not all that dissimilar to what they did with Donald Blake and Thor.

Which I was kind of bummed about, by the by. I mean obviously what they did worked but I liked the Donald Blake alter-ego, as well as the consequences of having the alter-ego (ref Infinity Gauntlet, issue 4, for example).

Yeah but it's also REAL dumb, adds an unnecessary level of complication to movie and character, and makes Thors every interaction and triumph something that puts Donald in a backseat. Could you imagine the first Thor movie with Donald Blake being the person Thor's soul was bonded to? What a mess that would have been for audiences.

Likewise, does Carol really need a Kree defector who gets his DNA mixed up in hers and then gets killed so that she can take up his mantle? How much time in this movie are we going to dedicate to this extra character and their thrown together relationship before he dies? Isn't it just easier to say Carol had her DNA messed with and then became a protector of earth because feth those Kree/Skrulls?

A lot of characters have unnecessary complications that were made to conform to popular standards of the time. Donald Blake is definitely one of those. I think he can work if you remove Asgard and focus on the idea that the hammer gives him "the power of Thor" and doesn't make him actually Thor, but that drains a lot of the appeal of Loki as an antagonist. The Jane Foster run really highlights why there's appeal in both "actually Thor" and "the power of Thor" as separate things, but ithe Donald Blake versions of the concept lose out on the important bit of the Odinson remaining a separate character.

 Lance845 wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Ive got a new theory.

Jude Law is playing Yon Rogg. Everyone else on that team is a classic Mahr Vell villain.

Carol Danvers gets the mind wipe treatment and her Kree mind wipe name is Mahr Vell. The classic comic book Mahr Vell just doesn't exist in the MCU at all. It's just Carol.

I think that's a solid theory, yes.

Marvel likes their fan service though, so perhaps she'll be named that after "a legendary Kree hero from the past". That way they're not saying that he didn't exist, which might trigger some geeks.

It's not all that dissimilar to what they did with Donald Blake and Thor. Clearly Marvel is happy to condense or remove elements from the comics that just don't really work or are too complicated. Is Thor a spirit of a god in a mortal mans body that switches back and forth or just a god/alien? Easier to just make him the crazy alien.

Is Carol Danvers going to absorb some dna from a kree spy sent to earth to protect it or can she just take his place?

Agreed.

 Mysterio wrote:
The way they're dancing around it, along with some of the blurry stills they've released, it is almost a certainty that Law's character will end up being a bad guy - maybe even the 'Final Boss'. Either because he's a Skrull too, or because he started out good but turned bad because (insert reason). Kind of like how we're getting 'good' Ronan in this movie.

From what Law has said about the character, it sounds like he's a reactionary type. So I'm guessing the arc will be that he was a good green-suited space cop until his methods became increasingly brutal and unsound. This puts him at odds with his younger strong-willed apprentice, and forces him to obtain a yellow...

...okay, I'm trolling a little there. But I'm gonna bet it's the Sinestro script instead of a Skrull in disguise.

 Easy E wrote:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
How many people saw Deep Impact and Armageddon both in theaters?

Ahem...

I did.

We always wondered.......


There is no way this does as well as Black Panther, and inevitable comparisons between this and Wonder Woman will probably sour the film a bit.

It might get a boost from WW comparisons, provided the last quarter of the film isn't a muddled mess of WTF? and CGI.
I get that it probably (almost certainly) won't have the cultural impact on audiences, but it has a decent chance of being a better film.

Well... Funco pop has released a casting spoiler by showing off some toys for the film namely jude laws character.