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 Mr Morden wrote:

Klickor wrote:
I think the biggest problem with the show is the lack of explanations. I as a book reader have no problems in filling out all the blanks but I have to explain things for my brothers all the time who havent read the books.

My brothers don't really know what the threat to the world is yet and why it matters who the Dragon is. The Dark One has been mentioned but unlike the books he seems more like an inconvenience in the show. In the book the Dragon reborn AND the dark one is seen as world ending catastrophes and it is established as early as in the prologue and chapter 1 of the book. It is like a christian hearing the devil is actually walking around the world in physical form in preparation for the end of the world.

Really? What did they need explaining? I am confused.

The Dark One is so obviously (or appears to be) a Sauron style superpowerful Dark Lord style villian so what else do we need to know? Its been explained several times in the show - what have your brothers not understood that my mother did?

Not a book reader - didn't get past the first one.

Ughh Gods is Mat staying the in show - I suppose he will make a good villian for the other villagers to agonise more over....

Your mother can understand the basic plot of the show and that isn't really hard. I bet she can't explain what a Wisdom is(sure this one isnt important at all but they mention it like it is), what a Ta'veren is, what the one power/saidin/saidar is, what the Dragon is, what the Dark one is, what a Forsaken is etc. What is up with Perrin and his yellow eyes? What is that dagger Mat has? None of that is explained really. What even happens when a man channels and why is it so bad? What is a Fade and why are they so dangerous? I am also guessing she has no idea they have travelled like 2 000km from their village to Tar Valon.

The Dark One is way worse than Sauron and not really a Dark Lord style villain. He is more a force of nature that will eventually mold the world(not just the planet) to his own making rather than what the Creator(God) made. Which is why the notion of them killing the dark one at this point at the eye of the world(he isn't even there) is laughable and Morraine and Siuan should know that. As a book reader it is obviously just a bad setup for a trap and Siuan have been manipulated easily in a dream. Remember how Morraine in ep2 said they should be careful about dreams because the Dark One can influence them?

They did not understand who or what the Dragon is. The thing with the Dragon is that he is destined to destroy the world and save it in the best case scenario and while doing so most likely kill everyone he holds dear. That is the good scenario. The bad is literally the end of the world. People pray to not be born in the same era as the Dragon. The show doesnt set it up very well because if they did they would have to ruin the mystery of the dragon. They also didn't know what Ta'veren is and why Rand, Mat and Perrin matters to the story. Morraine is obviously the main character of the show and Egwene and Nynaeve look far more useful than the boys.

I had to explain to them what the prologue was. They did not understand that the guy was really dangerous because he had turned mad due to the one power and would sooner or later kill everyone around him and the red Ajah is an "order" hunting down men so they don't destroy the world again. They just thought they had a beef or he was a bad guy. And it was also really badly done and contradicts information we get later on(not just what is in the books). The red Ajah is not allowed to severe men from the power out in the field and need to take them to Tar Valon just like they did with Logain. Here they casually just gentled a male channeler without good explanation or even consequences even though Morraine witnessed it.

 Mr Morden wrote:


* Religious (?) loonys believe that all magic is bad except for the militant guy who is happy to say (in front of the really loony witch hunter) hey go and vist a I-Sadai to get healed....not quite sure why these guys are allowed to exist but thats religious fanatics i guess
l

Plenty of real world examples of religious groups getting in power.

Getting rid of white cloaks isn't that easy. We are talking about not so insignificant military force with nation under their control more or less. Going all out war over them isn't easiest solutions.


Especially when they are ostensibly good guys. Support for military campaign against them isn't quaranteed.

Book white cloaks are definitely more good than show white cloaks. Books make it clear there are a few bad apples and the rest is more misguided than malicious. Intent for the most part is good. Show make it seem they are mostly evil with 1 stupid man, the guy who recommends a "witch" healer in front of a questioner on a crusade.

The show does too many things at a surface level and only focus in on rather irrelevant things. Like Siuan Sanche, Logain(most of the Logain stuff is irrelevant), Steppin or Shael. They should probably have cut some of those things and properly introduced some of the things. Like they could have cut out the white cloaks entirely, which I thought they would, since Perrin kills his wife.instead of any white cloaks. Would have given more time for setting up more important things.

 warboss wrote:
I didn't say there wasn't an in-universe reason for it but rather that it boils down to men + one power = death sentence. Heck, the blonde red Aes Sedai states the reason as she is about to kill him referring to him being lost in the madness. Can you really imagine a scenario where a show based on flawed but still supposedly good tough love team of mystically powerful men hunting down and psychologically maiming or physically killing every woman who tries to wield that same power makes it to air in 2021? I don't.

Well, no death penalty per se, but gentling. They cut them from the one source so that they can't channel no more.

Of course, in most cases that leads to suicide, but still.

 Albertorius wrote:

 warboss wrote:
I didn't say there wasn't an in-universe reason for it but rather that it boils down to men + one power = death sentence. Heck, the blonde red Aes Sedai states the reason as she is about to kill him referring to him being lost in the madness. Can you really imagine a scenario where a show based on flawed but still supposedly good tough love team of mystically powerful men hunting down and psychologically maiming or physically killing every woman who tries to wield that same power makes it to air in 2021? I don't.

Well, no death penalty per se, but gentling. They cut them from the one source so that they can't channel no more.

Of course, in most cases that leads to suicide, but still.

True though in my defense I hadn't actually seen that yet in the show and was basing it on the first episode opening scene execution. It was mentioned however in exposition (hence my inclusion of "psychological maiming" in the same post) but now I've seen the mystical castration in the show as well as the suicidality that results.

Klickor wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Klickor wrote:
I think the biggest problem with the show is the lack of explanations. I as a book reader have no problems in filling out all the blanks but I have to explain things for my brothers all the time who havent read the books.

My brothers don't really know what the threat to the world is yet and why it matters who the Dragon is. The Dark One has been mentioned but unlike the books he seems more like an inconvenience in the show. In the book the Dragon reborn AND the dark one is seen as world ending catastrophes and it is established as early as in the prologue and chapter 1 of the book. It is like a christian hearing the devil is actually walking around the world in physical form in preparation for the end of the world.

Really? What did they need explaining? I am confused.

The Dark One is so obviously (or appears to be) a Sauron style superpowerful Dark Lord style villian so what else do we need to know? Its been explained several times in the show - what have your brothers not understood that my mother did?

Not a book reader - didn't get past the first one.


Ughh Gods is Mat staying the in show - I suppose he will make a good villian for the other villagers to agonise more over....

Your mother can understand the basic plot of the show and that isn't really hard. I bet she can't explain what a Wisdom is(sure this one isnt important at all but they mention it like it is), what a Ta'veren is, what the one power/saidin/saidar is, what the Dragon is, what the Dark one is, what a Forsaken is etc. What is up with Perrin and his yellow eyes? What is that dagger Mat has? None of that is explained really. What even happens when a man channels and why is it so bad? What is a Fade and why are they so dangerous? I am also guessing she has no idea they have travelled like 2 000km from their village to Tar Valon.

The Dark One is way worse than Sauron and not really a Dark Lord style villain. He is more a force of nature that will eventually mold the world(not just the planet) to his own making rather than what the Creator(God) made. Which is why the notion of them killing the dark one at this point at the eye of the world(he isn't even there) is laughable and Morraine and Siuan should know that. As a book reader it is obviously just a bad setup for a trap and Siuan have been manipulated easily in a dream. Remember how Morraine in ep2 said they should be careful about dreams because the Dark One can influence them?

They did not understand who or what the Dragon is. The thing with the Dragon is that he is destined to destroy the world and save it in the best case scenario and while doing so most likely kill everyone he holds dear. That is the good scenario. The bad is literally the end of the world. People pray to not be born in the same era as the Dragon. The show doesnt set it up very well because if they did they would have to ruin the mystery of the dragon. They also didn't know what Ta'veren is and why Rand, Mat and Perrin matters to the story. Morraine is obviously the main character of the show and Egwene and Nynaeve look far more useful than the boys.

I had to explain to them what the prologue was. They did not understand that the guy was really dangerous because he had turned mad due to the one power and would sooner or later kill everyone around him and the red Ajah is an "order" hunting down men so they don't destroy the world again. They just thought they had a beef or he was a bad guy. And it was also really badly done and contradicts information we get later on(not just what is in the books). The red Ajah is not allowed to severe men from the power out in the field and need to take them to Tar Valon just like they did with Logain. Here they casually just gentled a male channeler without good explanation or even consequences even though Morraine witnessed it.

Since you’re a book reader, knock it off with the goddamned book spoilers. I didn’t need to know the bad guy was obviously not where everyone in the show has been saying the bad guy was and that it was really just a trap.

Question for those who read the books regarding this iconic book cover...



Is that Morraine and her Warder at the front? Is that size difference reflected in the novels or just a quirk of the art? As a kid in the 80s, I just figured she was a hobbit on a pony because she and her horse are so much smaller than the guy and his ride next to her.

According to the wiki Lan is 6' 5" and Moraine is "short" so it's not entirely ridiculous.

Ah how those books covers influenced my view of the world…. And helped sell it to me. I really, really wish the costume department had stayed true to those images.

I understand the showrunner wants to subvert book reader expectations to evoke a sense of surprise or suspense. I get the theory but I do not like it. It feels too much like meddling, trying to fix something that is not broken. It is bad enough when something gets cut, like Jackson cutting Tom Bombadil from Lord of the Rings, but this show wants us to not be sure if Frodo is Ringbearer, whether it will be Aragorn or Boromir who will succumb to the Ring and has a female Elven love interest to conflict with Legolas, The Dragonslayer… oh, wait… err.

At least Lan is cool and Moiraine reminds me more of Gandalf with every passing episode.

 AduroT wrote:


Since you’re a book reader, knock it off with the goddamned book spoilers. I didn’t need to know the bad guy was obviously not where everyone in the show has been saying the bad guy was and that it was really just a trap.

Well it is show information that it is most likely a trap. It isn't information from the books. Morraine says the dreams can't be trusted and they bet everything on her lover's vague dream. Can't really be more obvious than that. In the books the Dark One isn't at the eye of the world. But I wouldn't be the least surprised if he is actually there in the show. Would be one of the smaller location changes and would actually be an acceptable change. They don't even see Tar Valon in the book for example yet they spend an awful lot of time there so the Dark One being at the Eye of the World is quite plausible. Shayol Ghul, the dark ones prison, and the location of the Eye of the World in the books aren't that far from each other after all. In the books they do go there and for an entire different reason and it isn't a trap. Why I think it is a trap is because it would create more tension and drama in the show. Like the fake drama around everyone but the dragon will die if they go there which obviously isn't true for a multi season series. Can't kill 6/7 main characters just like that after all. They didn't build up the tension well during episodes 3-6 so they forced it in so they can have tension in 8.

They have deviated a lot from the books, the only thing that really is the same are names of characters and places, so the plot or character arcs isn't something even book readers can accurately predict at this point. Up until ep 7 quite a few of us weren't even sure they would let Rand be the Dragon Reborn and it isn't even conclusive at this point he is the only Dragon.

My prediction is that they actually defeat the Dark one in season 3. Of course they can't do it in season 1 if they are adapting a 14 book series, really thick 800 pages volumes, that have been renewed for a second season. It is like if Gandalf said at Rivendell "Let's go kill Sauron in Moria using the one ring" and you knew there were 2 more movies and they set up the ring can't be used like that.

...I've never seen that cover in my life xD

I always thought that book cover looked truely bizare.

Wisdom is(sure this one isnt important at all but they mention it like it is), what a Ta'veren is, what the one power/saidin/saidar is, what the Dragon is, what the Dark one is, what a Forsaken is etc. What is up with Perrin and his yellow eyes? What is that dagger Mat has? None of that is explained really. What even happens when a man channels and why is it so bad? What is a Fade and why are they so dangerous? I am also guessing she has no idea they have travelled like 2 000km from their village to Tar Valon.

Peronally we don't need to know everythng - I am also told there is copious notes available with the show on Amazon if i want to read it?
Wisdom just seems to be a wise woman with powers who leads the women also a bit like a minor cult - do I need to now more? It works fine for me.
The Dark One as said several times - its a Dark Lord and at the moment pretty normal for it.
Foraskaen - major servant of the Dark One - all this was specicially said in the show.
Perrin is obviuosly connected to wolves/wilderness - they could not have made it more obvious
Dagger is from the shadow city and "contains darkness from it" again fairly standard fantasy trope and specifically spoken about
Man channels - he goes mad - its been explicity shown and told us mutiple times - both with the "dragon reborn" and the idiot mat
Of course we know they are long way from home are they specifically say they have travelled for more than a month - the only thing more explciit would have been a red line crossing a map.

Its a fantasy show with lore - but so are all the others.

The Dark One is way worse than Sauron and not really a Dark Lord style villain. He is more a force of nature that will eventually mold the world(not just the planet) to his own making rather than what the Creator(God) made.

How is that different from Sauron?

They have already said that it is their End Times - several times

If people did not understand this from the first couple of episodes - I am surprised - its spelled out with actual dialogue....repeatedly from the very first scene

Klickor wrote:
Book white cloaks are definitely more good than show white cloaks. Books make it clear there are a few bad apples and the rest is more misguided than malicious. Intent for the most part is good. Show make it seem they are mostly evil with 1 stupid man, the guy who recommends a "witch" healer in front of a questioner on a crusade.

The books suggest pretty straightforwardly that the Whitecloaks are 33% percent misguided, 33% malicious, and 33% idiotic.

Wisdoms normally don't have power and they don't lead people in a cult. They are mostly just the village healer/herbalist without magic. Also part of the female village council like how Rand's and Egwene's fathers are part of the male village council.

All the others are also very shallow understanding of things on a surface level that doesn't really tell you much. The way they are set up in the show most of them could just have been removed because they don't explore the reason to why they matter.

Perrin can communicate with wolves and run a huge risk of turning feral and start acting like a wolf. Wolves are also connected to dreams and dreams in this world are quite important. He really risks losing himself to it and it scares him. Show make it look like a neat wolf controlling power.

Many of these things are not just background lore just like any fantasy world but important parts of the characters, the actual plot and the antagonist. Nynaeve's character is closely linked to her being young for a Wisdom. Mat's dagger is extremely important for book 2 and a lot of plot points in the story. It has nothing to do with the dark one or just any everyday magic object found in a fantasy novel with a curse on it.

The heron marked blade Rand carries for example is very important to the plot, Rand's growth and Tam's backstory. None of that is really used in the show and they even messed up one of the most important things with the sword in ep1.

The only reason many of these things are in the show is because so they can check off things on a checklist so they can say the follow the story while not following the story. They aren't there to do what they did in the book anyway. I think the show would have been better with just cutting out the whole dagger(and all plot related things to it) or wisdom (just call her herbalist) parts for example and instead focus on the other parts of those characters personalities and journeys.


Sauron is just a dark lord who sure would suck if he won but he would just control that continent as a tyrant. He wouldn't destroy the world or be able to do it even if he tried. He isn't much different than the Wizards or Balrog or Smaug. Him winning isn't the end of the world. Many of the elves don't even really care because they can just leave the continent. If Eru or the Valar wanted to they could just take a trip to Middle Earth and remove Sauron at will. The Forsaken in WoT is closer to what Sauron is or used to be under Melkor. Strong servants but they can be defeated by others at the same level. There are after all two different tiers of beings above Maiar
like Sauron. Valar and Eru/God. The Dark One in WoT is a being on an entirely different level than Sauron and more like a evil mirror to an almighty God who created the universe. There are restraints to him but if he wins time itself might cease to exist. This isn't portrayed at all in the show but the Aes Sedai(at least the Amyrlin and Morrain) should know that which is the reason that they think they can just take the Dragon Reborn there and kill him off like he is just a weakened mortal being is laughable in the context of the world. If they really set up things they wouldn't be able to try do such a weak plot in the show.

This is the reason I don't think the show will last unlike the books. They haven't tried setting up things so you can have payoffs later. They are just plot points and weird side stories(like Stepping and Siuan Sanche) and the audience will lose interest after a while. You need deeper themes and characters if you want to do the 8 seasons they claimed.

Klickor wrote:
Sauron is just a dark lord who sure would suck if he won but he would just control that continent as a tyrant. He wouldn't destroy the world or be able to do it even if he tried. He isn't much different than the Wizards or Balrog or Smaug. Him winning isn't the end of the world. Many of the elves don't even really care because they can just leave the continent. If Eru or the Valar wanted to they could just take a trip to Middle Earth and remove Sauron at will. The Forsaken in WoT is closer to what Sauron is or used to be under Melkor. Strong servants but they can be defeated by others at the same level. There are after all two different tiers of beings above Maiar
like Sauron. Valar and Eru/God. The Dark One in WoT is a being on an entirely different level than Sauron and more like a evil mirror to an almighty God who created the universe. There are restraints to him but if he wins time itself might cease to exist. This isn't portrayed at all in the show but the Aes Sedai(at least the Amyrlin and Morrain) should know that which is the reason that they think they can just take the Dragon Reborn there and kill him off like he is just a weakened mortal being is laughable in the context of the world. If they really set up things they wouldn't be able to try do such a weak plot in the show.

First of all, tag your spoilers.

Second of all,

 Flipsiders wrote:

Klickor wrote:
Book white cloaks are definitely more good than show white cloaks. Books make it clear there are a few bad apples and the rest is more misguided than malicious. Intent for the most part is good. Show make it seem they are mostly evil with 1 stupid man, the guy who recommends a "witch" healer in front of a questioner on a crusade.

The books suggest pretty straightforwardly that the Whitecloaks are 33% percent misguided, 33% malicious, and 33% idiotic.

Spoiler:

Example: Niall, the Whitecloak leader who captures Morgase, is a pretty decent fellow, but he's murdered for no reason by the legendary idiot Valda. There's a clear sense that the rational, good-hearted Whitecloaks are under constant attack (sometimes literally) from members of the organization who lack one or both of those traits.

Exactly. The book white cloaks can be set upon the path of good with competent leadership(or turned bad with evil leaders) while the show make it look like they are already turned bad. Like their beef with Perrin in the books is actually quite justified.

Book white cloaks also come off as more realistic. People looking for a cause in a world where real darkness exists. Joining an armed force trying to bring the light. Having actual well armed soldiers. Biggest problem is that they see dark friends everywhere. Bit like how some people look for Nazis everywhere and thus see Nazis everywhere on the internet. But these guys have actual weapons and military might and can abuse it unlike Twitter activists. Show white cloaks look more like a group of fanatical witch hunters that go for a more ceremonial look than practical armour. Not an organisation that can rule a country and project military might outside its borders.

 Baragash wrote:
According to the wiki Lan is 6' 5" and Moraine is "short" so it's not entirely ridiculous.

Possibly and thanks for the info. Speaking as someone who is almost that height barefoot (just frations of an inch under), she'd have to have the frame of a 10 year old girl to match those proportions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grumpy Gnome wrote:
Ah how those books covers influenced my view of the world…. And helped sell it to me. I really, really wish the costume department had stayed true to those images.

Yeah it's pretty iconic for 80s fantasy oil painting art along with alot of d&d covers for me. It's what I most associated with WOT until this week frankly.

 warboss wrote:

 Baragash wrote:
According to the wiki Lan is 6' 5" and Moraine is "short" so it's not entirely ridiculous.

Poss and thanks for the info. Speaking as someone who is almost that height barefoot (just frations of an inch under), she'd have to have the frame of a 10 year old girl to match those proportions.

Mandarb (Lan's warhorse) is also canonically *jacked*, so that somewhat syncs up as well.

Sterling191 wrote:

Mandarb (Lan's warhorse) is also canonically *jacked*, so that somewhat syncs up as well.

Well, that part I can't comment about as I very little experience with horse riding but it definitely could add to the scale discrepancy. I'll just consider him a primarisized warden.


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 Albertorius wrote:
...I've never seen that cover in my life xD

That's odd that they didn't use the cropped version also for the Spanish edition. While I can't guarantee that it is the only cover they've used, it's definitely the only one I've ever noticed since the 80s.

Everything looks out of proportion to everything else....its awful.

Out of curiosity has Verin showed up? She had nice story with hints plotted from get-go subtly. Doubt show manages building that as well though

tneva82 wrote:
Out of curiosity has Verin showed up? She had nice story with hints plotted from get-go subtly. Doubt show manages building that as well though

She has not. With the

 warboss wrote:

Well, that part I can't comment about as I very little experience with horse riding but it definitely could add to the scale discrepancy. I'll just consider him a primarisized warden.

It's not an inaccurate analogy. The lad (like all of the named horses in the series) has serious plot armor.

 warboss wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

Mandarb (Lan's warhorse) is also canonically *jacked*, so that somewhat syncs up as well.

Well, that part I can't comment about as I very little experience with horse riding but it definitely could add to the scale discrepancy. I'll just consider him a primarisized warden.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Albertorius wrote:
...I've never seen that cover in my life xD

That's odd that they didn't use the cropped version also for the Spanish edition. While I can't guarantee that it is the only cover they've used, it's definitely the only one I've ever noticed since the 80s.

Ah, Lan is a witcher, I see.

The first spanish edition of the whole series used these covers:



The current edition is similarly designed, but each cover has a different illustration:



And they're releasing bundles now, on a different edition:



The first edition was by Timun Mas, and the current ones by Minotauro. First publisher tended to publish cheaper editions, while Minotauro usually makes high end ones.

That first edition cover looks very sad... Like a self published POD romance novel. The newer ones are stylish and elegant though.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Everything looks out of proportion to everything else....its awful.

I disagree.

I love the artwork of Darrell K. Sweet. His work is among my most loved.

He did the covers of several Wheel of Time books as well as the covers for many other books I have enjoyed over the years.

https://www.tor.com/2012/04/20/a-darrell-k-sweet-wheel-of-time-tribute-including-a-memory-of-light-sketch/

Another image I associate with the Eye of the World is this one… which I have cited to the folks at Dwarven Forge for what I would like to see their upcoming Cities 2 Kickstarter help create.

Seems perfectly OK, perspective, wise

But Moiraine is teeny tiny. And her horse is a pony. Actually, is more the horse than her.

Guess artist went really heavy with her tinyness(she is described as small like cairhiens tended to be)

I do like the effort the show made to differentiate LAN’s warhorse compared to the other horses.

In my mind’s eye Moiraine was Carrie Fisher sized.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Ughh Gods is Mat staying the in show - I suppose he will make a good villian for the other villagers to agonise more over....

Yes and no. The actor had scheduling conflicts, so he's being recast in season 2.

 Grumpy Gnome wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Everything looks out of proportion to everything else....its awful.

I disagree.

I love the artwork of Darrell K. Sweet. His work is among my most loved.

He did the covers of several Wheel of Time books as well as the covers for many other books I have enjoyed over the years.

Amusingly, I've strongly disliked Sweet's covers for the books since the very beginning. I think you're the first person I've encountered who has used the word "love" in response to his work on WoT.