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 BlackoCatto wrote:
Alright but who cares.

I do. I thought he was making Space Nazis ironically.

Dammit. I was a fan of his work.

Like he says, his political view may not be mine to judge, but I can certainly judge where my money and attention goes moving forward.

 BlackoCatto wrote:
Alright but who cares.

I definitely care if someone who wants my money my end up turning around and using that money to undermine my rights and the system that upholds them.

But I guess some people want a real life 40k experience.

Yeah, I don’t want the mods to delete these posts. We as consumers should be able to make informed choices on what we’re buying and from whom.

I agree. It should stay.

If a creative type wants to espouse that specific type of rhetoric, then we as consumers should be informed about such.

But has Wargames Atlantic any kind of association with that person besides buying the moulds to make the miniatures?

 Gallahad wrote:

I support a broad definition of free speech and believe the only cure for bad speech is more speech.

I also believe in a world where I can talk to and even transact with people with whom I disagree politically. Tolerance is only meaningful when I extend it to people I don't agree with.

I also believe that there are arenas of life where we are better off agreeing not to raise political discourse. This forum is one of those arenas. I hope the mods delete both our comments.

Correct. But as the free market is only free when we as consumers can make decisions, consumers have the right and ability to let any factor influence their purchase decision: origin of manufacture, ethics of manufacture, value of commodity, ease of use, anything at all. The more information that is available for a consumer to make their purchase decisions, the better the consumer can make those decisions, especially if they align with their own, let's say, gut feelings, about a purchase.

For example, a consumer may have been totally fine with the product manufactured using Chinese labor (almost certainly unsafe and almost certainly unethical) but not fine with the owner's public statements.

edit: though apparently his copypasta post was because he thought he was fighting Facebook because the phrase in question is somehow going to trigger some algorithm. I think he might be too old to understand the internet

I'll leave the post up for now and am going to hope that people will behave and ultimately, stay on topic, so do not make me regret not removing it on sight.

Wow. I regret buying a DFG Leviathan from their big clearance sale. I won't be buying from that (sorry for this) white supremacist again. Now, moving on.. no more of this from me.

Thanks folks. I'm also keen to see this stay here, personally. I've not bought from WGA yet but that's because (a) I have a *lot* of boxes of plastic minis still sitting around and (b) I am gonna do a big order once they release all the stuff I am looking forward to, so it can be added to the big pile of boxes

Anyway -- if anyone reaches out to WGA to find out what the score is, please keep us informed!

Blastaar wrote:
Wow. I regret buying a DFG Leviathan from their big clearance sale. I won't be buying from that (sorry for this) white supremacist again. Now, moving on.. no more of this from me.

Just to clarify my statement earlier, I was joking about the Space Nazis being unironic. I’m not comfortable calling Mark a white supremacist based on what we’ve seen so far. Saying he’s comfortable with a movement spearheaded by WSes, sure. But I don’t feel it’s fair to assume the absolute worst based on his bad enough post.

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
Thanks folks. I'm also keen to see this stay here, personally. I've not bought from WGA yet but that's because (a) I have a *lot* of boxes of plastic minis still sitting around and (b) I am gonna do a big order once they release all the stuff I am looking forward to, so it can be added to the big pile of boxes

Anyway -- if anyone reaches out to WGA to find out what the score is, please keep us informed!

Hudson Adams is not Mark Mondragon, if realizing that the discussion so far is about a person who is not part of the WGA company might be useful information.

WGA kits are good quality. I have seen nothing on FB to indicate any political extremism on their part. They have fostered discussion more open minded about representation and similar “hot” issues than the average Dakka thread.

Im going to slightly break my "not commenting further" rule to echo what judgedoug said - Mark Mondragon is, as far as I know, not a Wargames Atlantic employee or affiliated with the company itself, etc. other than being the creative behind the Iron-Core product range that WGA is rolling out. I would assume that its a form of licensing deal, with WGA owning a license to produce Iron Core products which it (probably) pays royalties to Mark for.

I see no reason for Wargames Atlantic to be punished for statements made by an independent entity/individual not on the company's payroll or profiting/benefiting from WGA's other business activities, etc. I will gladly be purchasing WGA's other product lines which presumably Mark will not profit/benefit from, I just probably won't touch anything associated with the Iron Core brand.

Big oof. But going back and reading it carefully, it seems to me the post is merely challenging social media suppressing political views. Repeating an extreme right catchphrase could just be an act of protest against censorship. Undecided until further evidence.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Big oof. But going back and reading it carefully, it seems to me the post is merely challenging social media suppressing political views. Repeating an extreme right catchphrase could just be an act of protest against censorship. Undecided until further evidence.

Social media has always been suppressing viewpoints. The timing on this is really unfortunate.


...unfortunate in that they coincided with the release of his resurrected Eisenkern line.

This is the thing, I don't think I've ever thought to myself in the past "I want to buy this model kit but first I need to know the designer isn't some kind of MAGA conspiracy nut", but if they're going to volunteer that info up themselves you can bet it's gonna put me off buying their models.

As far as I can see the guy has got some political opinions, which should not disqualify him from sculpting some miniatures and won't put me off buying them.

Oh, I did get that Mondragon was only licensing his work elsewhere, but I'm doubtful that talking to him personally is going to be very productive.

 Gallahad wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
So, without taking us off topic (mods delete if you think this is inappropriate or point me to the relevant place to start a new thread if the discussion is warranted elsewhere) or veering into political discourse, I came across a somewhat troubling Facebook post by Mark Mondragon (the creator/designer of the various Dreamforge kits) - I've put it in spoiler tags for those who don't want to be bothered:

Spoiler:

Ostensibly the post is about free speech, but I have trouble believing that it isn't indicating sympathy for or agreement with certain political viewpoints that in light of recent events I don't feel I can turn a blind eye towards or simply just overlook. I was considering buying more Eisenkern kits to support his future endeavors and bulk out my existing Eisenkern based guard/militarum army, but I'm reluctant to do so after reading that.

I won't be commenting/discussing this further beyond this post in this thread out of respect for Wargames Atlantic and not to throw off the otherwise positive discussion we've been having here, but I think people have a right to know who they are supporting - draw your own conclusions and conduct yourselves appropriately.

I support a broad definition of free speech and believe the only cure for bad speech is more speech.

I also believe in a world where I can talk to and even transact with people with whom I disagree politically. Tolerance is only meaningful when I extend it to people I don't agree with.

I also believe that there are arenas of life where we are better off agreeing not to raise political discourse. This forum is one of those arenas. I hope the mods delete both our comments.

Yes, delete this toxic cancel culture BS.

How many people that have read the screenshot have then gone and read the rest of the posts under it?


If not do the leg work

 JoeRugby wrote:
How many people that have read the screenshot have then gone and read the rest of the posts under it?


If not do the leg work

You mean the fact that he keeps doubling down on it?

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Big oof. But going back and reading it carefully, it seems to me the post is merely challenging social media suppressing political views. Repeating an extreme right catchphrase could just be an act of protest against censorship. Undecided until further evidence.

A person can make a rational, or even impassioned emotional argument for free speech without spamming "blood and soil" repeatedly in their writing.

 JoeRugby wrote:
How many people that have read the screenshot have then gone and read the rest of the posts under it?


If not do the leg work

I have, and it really only makes things worse.

He seems pretty ignorant of what Facebook is actually doing and why his “friends’” accounts are being deleted.

And again, the timing of his stand-taking speaks volumes.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 BlackoCatto wrote:
Alright but who cares.

I do. I thought he was making Space Nazis ironically.

Dammit. I was a fan of his work.

Yeah same, hopefully he isn't too deep down that rabbit hole.

It does make me regret buying some of his kits in the past, and definitely will put me off on buying the rereleases. Too bad, I was looking forward to seeing the Panzerjaegers come back.

As others said, he doesn't represent Wargames Atlantic itself in any way - I don't know if they contracted out a royalty scheme or bought the rights to the models outright, but either way he isn't at the helm of the company.

Could we just quit this ridiculous witch-hunt and get back to discussing plastic soldiers?

ScarletRose wrote:

 JoeRugby wrote:
How many people that have read the screenshot have then gone and read the rest of the posts under it?


If not do the leg work

You mean the fact that he keeps doubling down on it?

The bit people are angry about is because he used the words “stop the steal “ right? Cause that makes him an “ist” or that plonker with the buffalo hat on.
Where does he double down on that cause I read it differently

BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 JoeRugby wrote:
How many people that have read the screenshot have then gone and read the rest of the posts under it?


If not do the leg work

I have, and it really only makes things worse.

He seems pretty ignorant of what Facebook is actually doing and why his “friends’” accounts are being deleted.

And again, the timing of his stand-taking speaks volumes.

How did it make it worse? Referring to my response to scarlet isn’t that why people were going to boycott a company that sells his minis?
He clearly doesn’t understand what private company’s can or can’t do (extra ironic points given the post is still up 2 days later ) can’t comment on why his friends were banned but his post seems to be a nuclear hot take based in part by his friends being messed around. Or that’s how I read it anyway

All genuine questions btw I went into it with a WTF is he a nut (aka that buffalo plonker )and came out thinking meh he just has different opinions to me

Okay people, this thread is now generating a ton of alerts and so I think it is time to take the discussion elsewhere. As far as I am aware WA only stock some of Mark's products so their N&R thread is not the place to clutter up with this conversation.

Still waiting on my Space Brits and Prussians

I am sorry if I made you question me or Hudson, that is not my intent.
I am not trying to offend any of you.

Just so you have a point of reference and insight. Politically I am a Libertarian, this choice is informed by my moral standing on freedoms. I have rather absolutist views on personal liberties and the role of government and corporations and their limitations.

When I posted that, I was, without a doubt fired up ‘red hot’. Having received messages from two friends on the same day and seeing the cornerstone of the Libertarian party Ron Paul as being stricken from Facebook. Was Ron Paul promoting violence? Working with Trump? No… That is blatantly absurd on its face.

The repeated phrase ’Stop the steal’ was used in my admonishment of Facebook because it was the only reason one of my friends could think of, as to why he was banned. I know him well, I know what a kind person he is and although I may not agree with his political standpoint, I support his right to express himself.

Obviously, Facebook is within its rights to ban anyone. My admonishment or calling out Facebook is not about their legal ability to ban an individual but to call into question the moral certitude in banning anyone, left right or center based on their political views.

You may think me arrogant or ignorant. Perhaps I am? I will stand up for my friends and for the freedoms I cherish and for the right of all of us to express our views. No matter how ignorant they may be.

I'm going to leave the above post in place, as it seems fair given the previous discussion for Mark to supply his side of it, but any further discussion on this should be had elsewhere.

Let's all get back to the actual topic of this thread, which is Wargames Atlantic.