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Lemondish wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Based off tabletop performance, I would absolutely do that.

Good. Get started. The sooner you abandon this sinking ship you hate the sooner you will feel so much more positive.

Nah, I hate the IG at this point. I feel dirty even souping them in.

Then you have zero reasons to complain the way you do.

Please don't bother to respond anymore. Because I'm not going to read it. Thanks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breton wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Agreed, except on more Primarchs - I'm not really fussed about that.

I think the whole "let's have an Imperial Civil War" is a lazy narrative, personally. The Imperium already IS threatened, it already is weak. It's only thanks to the Primaris and Guilliman that it's not collapsed. Personally, I don't see any Primarchs realistically opposing Guilliman of causing a Civil War, barring the Lion, and ONLY if Guilliman blamed him for the Fallen stuff (which Guilliman wouldn't do in this situation).

There's too much at stake in-universe for a civil war, so I don't think any Primarchs would do anything. At this point as well, no humans can really oppose Guilliman directly in a military manner, due to his status and explicit support from the Emperor and Custodes.

I think this is all fine. The Imperium still sucks. Everything's still "grimdark". The fact that there's simply more going on now narratively opposed to a few years ago is much better for narrative players.

More Primarchs should return if for no other reason than so all the books have at least one. The chaos folks aren't going to have to pick one Black Legion primarch for their Death Guard force, and the same Black Legion Primarch for their Khorn force etc. etc. Non UM's shouldn't have to drag Guilliman around just to have a Primarch. They're not going to do the Civil War 2.0, and they're not going to squat Marines. They'll let the players squat Marines by continually making Primaris just a little bit better. I'd also say the Primarchs have to remain an odd number - for the fluff. They need to have a voter who can break ties, and not be less than a primarch. The best choice to return with the Lion is Sanguinius - they already did this with Imperium Secundus. But they won't - both because the already did it, and they don't know what they're going to do with Sanguinius/BA yet anyway. Russ makes a good alternative who doesn't like or dislike either Johnson or Guilliman. They could bring back Vulkhan as a Sanguinius stand-in for the most Humane primarch.

I still think they should have squatted BA with the Nids. Think of the drama. It could have been red wedding-esque, pun intended.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Bharring wrote:

This way, people who love the DOW3 asethetic and design can have their MarinesButBetterMoarDakka squads, and I can have my MarinesWithTacticalLoadouts. Everybody wins.

Did anybody love the DOW3 aesthetic?

Love is a strong word but I was certainly entertained by the wacky dancing Ork buildings and silly shenanigans like launching Ork boyz right from a trukk into battle. Why? Well, it fit the Ork theme. Though on the other hand there was a somersaulting SM dude in terminator armour. Only because of this incident I felt an urge to tar and feather the devs.

Martel732 wrote:
I still think they should have squatted BA with the Nids. Think of the drama. It could have been red wedding-esque, pun intended.

That would have been beutiful, Baal falls, Tyranids get even more of a threat, surviving Blood Angels get rolled into Codex Space Marines. One less slighlty different Marine Codex the better... same treatment need to happen to the Dark Angels as well.

I suspect that GW's plan is to eventually have Codex Primaris, and that is that. It will have the rules for the classic chaptes, and some new Primaris exclusive ones. This will of course be years down the line, 5-10.years at least. I think in the mean time we'll see more and more of them Primaris line be released, then one the line is fully fleshed out we'll see one either a split, or one final Codex that combnes the two. Once the old range has ran out of stock, Primaris should be in a strong sales position and be the new Iconic Marine that GW build their success upon. What will be interesting is to see what GW do with Grey Knights and Deathwatch.

As it is at the moment, GW will keep selling loads of old Marines as they are an Iconic model with a fully fleshed out line, change is going to happen, just takes a while. A cautionary glance at AoS shows that a lot of the old popular plastic kits have either sold out, or been removed; Basic Orcs Boyz, High Elf White Lions, High Elf Spearmen, High Elf Archers, and Empire Knights... these units were the core of a some of the most common armies in WFB. White Lions weren't even that old a kit, 2012 I think they got updated.

Martel732 wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Based off tabletop performance, I would absolutely do that.

Good. Get started. The sooner you abandon this sinking ship you hate the sooner you will feel so much more positive.

Nah, I hate the IG at this point. I feel dirty even souping them in.

Then you have zero reasons to complain the way you do.

Please don't bother to respond anymore. Because I'm not going to read it. Thanks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breton wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Agreed, except on more Primarchs - I'm not really fussed about that.

I think the whole "let's have an Imperial Civil War" is a lazy narrative, personally. The Imperium already IS threatened, it already is weak. It's only thanks to the Primaris and Guilliman that it's not collapsed. Personally, I don't see any Primarchs realistically opposing Guilliman of causing a Civil War, barring the Lion, and ONLY if Guilliman blamed him for the Fallen stuff (which Guilliman wouldn't do in this situation).

There's too much at stake in-universe for a civil war, so I don't think any Primarchs would do anything. At this point as well, no humans can really oppose Guilliman directly in a military manner, due to his status and explicit support from the Emperor and Custodes.

I think this is all fine. The Imperium still sucks. Everything's still "grimdark". The fact that there's simply more going on now narratively opposed to a few years ago is much better for narrative players.

More Primarchs should return if for no other reason than so all the books have at least one. The chaos folks aren't going to have to pick one Black Legion primarch for their Death Guard force, and the same Black Legion Primarch for their Khorn force etc. etc. Non UM's shouldn't have to drag Guilliman around just to have a Primarch. They're not going to do the Civil War 2.0, and they're not going to squat Marines. They'll let the players squat Marines by continually making Primaris just a little bit better. I'd also say the Primarchs have to remain an odd number - for the fluff. They need to have a voter who can break ties, and not be less than a primarch. The best choice to return with the Lion is Sanguinius - they already did this with Imperium Secundus. But they won't - both because the already did it, and they don't know what they're going to do with Sanguinius/BA yet anyway. Russ makes a good alternative who doesn't like or dislike either Johnson or Guilliman. They could bring back Vulkhan as a Sanguinius stand-in for the most Humane primarch.

I still think they should have squatted BA with the Nids. Think of the drama. It could have been red wedding-esque, pun intended.

if you wanna stop playing blood angels, stop playing blood angels; don't demand GW eliminate a faction many other people enjoy just so you can justify going to play guard or whatever faction you want to play

 Stormonu wrote:

Silver144 wrote:
Dorn/Russ/Lion returns and now we have primaris against not primaris cold war? Count me in.

Anything that gives us more reasons to have faction vs. faction (especially Imperial vs. Imperial) I'm all for.

In a way, I wish Cawl would be declared a Heretek and take off with half the Admech clans.

Then, Guilliman embraces progress and champions the Primaris, ditching the oldmarines.

However, Dorn/Lion returns and makes the case that the oldmarines are the Emperor's chosen, and pushes for the elimination of "wanna-be Warmaster Guilliman and his abominations"

Russ then returns, gives Guilliman (and the Lion) the finger and openly rebels with the wolves and wolfen.

Then Creed throws his gauntlet into the ring and starts stomping rebellious marines (and Admech) on all sides with the guns of the Imperial Guard.

And Knights tell everyone "screw this noise" and bolster their own houses as petty fiefdoms kicking everyone else out of the way.

Fantastic post proving that, as bad as GW can be at writing fluff, they've never written something that makes people cringe compared to people on this forum.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Based off tabletop performance, I would absolutely do that.

Good. Get started. The sooner you abandon this sinking ship you hate the sooner you will feel so much more positive.

Nah, I hate the IG at this point. I feel dirty even souping them in.

Then you have zero reasons to complain the way you do.

Please don't bother to respond anymore. Because I'm not going to read it. Thanks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breton wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Agreed, except on more Primarchs - I'm not really fussed about that.

I think the whole "let's have an Imperial Civil War" is a lazy narrative, personally. The Imperium already IS threatened, it already is weak. It's only thanks to the Primaris and Guilliman that it's not collapsed. Personally, I don't see any Primarchs realistically opposing Guilliman of causing a Civil War, barring the Lion, and ONLY if Guilliman blamed him for the Fallen stuff (which Guilliman wouldn't do in this situation).

There's too much at stake in-universe for a civil war, so I don't think any Primarchs would do anything. At this point as well, no humans can really oppose Guilliman directly in a military manner, due to his status and explicit support from the Emperor and Custodes.

I think this is all fine. The Imperium still sucks. Everything's still "grimdark". The fact that there's simply more going on now narratively opposed to a few years ago is much better for narrative players.

More Primarchs should return if for no other reason than so all the books have at least one. The chaos folks aren't going to have to pick one Black Legion primarch for their Death Guard force, and the same Black Legion Primarch for their Khorn force etc. etc. Non UM's shouldn't have to drag Guilliman around just to have a Primarch. They're not going to do the Civil War 2.0, and they're not going to squat Marines. They'll let the players squat Marines by continually making Primaris just a little bit better. I'd also say the Primarchs have to remain an odd number - for the fluff. They need to have a voter who can break ties, and not be less than a primarch. The best choice to return with the Lion is Sanguinius - they already did this with Imperium Secundus. But they won't - both because the already did it, and they don't know what they're going to do with Sanguinius/BA yet anyway. Russ makes a good alternative who doesn't like or dislike either Johnson or Guilliman. They could bring back Vulkhan as a Sanguinius stand-in for the most Humane primarch.

I still think they should have squatted BA with the Nids. Think of the drama. It could have been red wedding-esque, pun intended.

if you wanna stop playing blood angels, stop playing blood angels; don't demand GW eliminate a faction many other people enjoy just so you can justify going to play guard or whatever faction you want to play

He's not entirely incorrect. Both the Angels armies need to be consolidated because that's part of what's leading to imbalance.

Are there going to be any more loyal Primarchs released any time soon? I haven’t heard anything.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:

Silver144 wrote:
Dorn/Russ/Lion returns and now we have primaris against not primaris cold war? Count me in.

Anything that gives us more reasons to have faction vs. faction (especially Imperial vs. Imperial) I'm all for.

In a way, I wish Cawl would be declared a Heretek and take off with half the Admech clans.

Then, Guilliman embraces progress and champions the Primaris, ditching the oldmarines.

However, Dorn/Lion returns and makes the case that the oldmarines are the Emperor's chosen, and pushes for the elimination of "wanna-be Warmaster Guilliman and his abominations"

Russ then returns, gives Guilliman (and the Lion) the finger and openly rebels with the wolves and wolfen.

Then Creed throws his gauntlet into the ring and starts stomping rebellious marines (and Admech) on all sides with the guns of the Imperial Guard.

And Knights tell everyone "screw this noise" and bolster their own houses as petty fiefdoms kicking everyone else out of the way.

Fantastic post proving that, as bad as GW can be at writing fluff, they've never written something that makes people cringe compared to people on this forum.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Based off tabletop performance, I would absolutely do that.

Good. Get started. The sooner you abandon this sinking ship you hate the sooner you will feel so much more positive.

Nah, I hate the IG at this point. I feel dirty even souping them in.

Then you have zero reasons to complain the way you do.

Please don't bother to respond anymore. Because I'm not going to read it. Thanks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breton wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Agreed, except on more Primarchs - I'm not really fussed about that.

I think the whole "let's have an Imperial Civil War" is a lazy narrative, personally. The Imperium already IS threatened, it already is weak. It's only thanks to the Primaris and Guilliman that it's not collapsed. Personally, I don't see any Primarchs realistically opposing Guilliman of causing a Civil War, barring the Lion, and ONLY if Guilliman blamed him for the Fallen stuff (which Guilliman wouldn't do in this situation).

There's too much at stake in-universe for a civil war, so I don't think any Primarchs would do anything. At this point as well, no humans can really oppose Guilliman directly in a military manner, due to his status and explicit support from the Emperor and Custodes.

I think this is all fine. The Imperium still sucks. Everything's still "grimdark". The fact that there's simply more going on now narratively opposed to a few years ago is much better for narrative players.

More Primarchs should return if for no other reason than so all the books have at least one. The chaos folks aren't going to have to pick one Black Legion primarch for their Death Guard force, and the same Black Legion Primarch for their Khorn force etc. etc. Non UM's shouldn't have to drag Guilliman around just to have a Primarch. They're not going to do the Civil War 2.0, and they're not going to squat Marines. They'll let the players squat Marines by continually making Primaris just a little bit better. I'd also say the Primarchs have to remain an odd number - for the fluff. They need to have a voter who can break ties, and not be less than a primarch. The best choice to return with the Lion is Sanguinius - they already did this with Imperium Secundus. But they won't - both because the already did it, and they don't know what they're going to do with Sanguinius/BA yet anyway. Russ makes a good alternative who doesn't like or dislike either Johnson or Guilliman. They could bring back Vulkhan as a Sanguinius stand-in for the most Humane primarch.

I still think they should have squatted BA with the Nids. Think of the drama. It could have been red wedding-esque, pun intended.

if you wanna stop playing blood angels, stop playing blood angels; don't demand GW eliminate a faction many other people enjoy just so you can justify going to play guard or whatever faction you want to play

He's not entirely incorrect. Both the Angels armies need to be consolidated because that's part of what's leading to imbalance.

no what's leading to inbalance is "ohh hey, you know whats a good idea, let's give guard chapter tactics on all their units, and marines only on a handful, and lets also give them access to orders to buff them even further. ohh and let's make them 4 PPM" the problem is that they're writing Marines like they're almost too good, and hobbling them, and giving other armies like guard force multipler after force multiplier.

BrianDavion wrote:


no what's leading to inbalance is "ohh hey, you know whats a good idea, let's give guard chapter tactics on all their units, and marines only on a handful, and lets also give them access to orders to buff them even further. ohh and let's make them 4 PPM" the problem is that they're writing Marines like they're almost too good, and hobbling them, and giving other armies like guard force multipler after force multiplier.

Astartes should be the force multiplier for the guard not the other way around. The fact that Marines do not get their chapter tactic is one of the stupidest things that they can easily fix.

GW has already indirectly squatted BA by making their signature play style a) futile for them and b) done better by other codices such as GSC. It's more intellectually honest to just get rid of them or roll them in or whatever.

I don’t think they will be getting rid of them any time soon.

Racerguy180 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:


no what's leading to inbalance is "ohh hey, you know whats a good idea, let's give guard chapter tactics on all their units, and marines only on a handful, and lets also give them access to orders to buff them even further. ohh and let's make them 4 PPM" the problem is that they're writing Marines like they're almost too good, and hobbling them, and giving other armies like guard force multipler after force multiplier.

Astartes should be the force multiplier for the guard not the other way around. The fact that Marines do not get their chapter tactic is one of the stupidest things that they can easily fix.

ohh on that I agree. Marines need force multipliers

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:

Silver144 wrote:
Dorn/Russ/Lion returns and now we have primaris against not primaris cold war? Count me in.

Anything that gives us more reasons to have faction vs. faction (especially Imperial vs. Imperial) I'm all for.

In a way, I wish Cawl would be declared a Heretek and take off with half the Admech clans.

Then, Guilliman embraces progress and champions the Primaris, ditching the oldmarines.

However, Dorn/Lion returns and makes the case that the oldmarines are the Emperor's chosen, and pushes for the elimination of "wanna-be Warmaster Guilliman and his abominations"

Russ then returns, gives Guilliman (and the Lion) the finger and openly rebels with the wolves and wolfen.

Then Creed throws his gauntlet into the ring and starts stomping rebellious marines (and Admech) on all sides with the guns of the Imperial Guard.

And Knights tell everyone "screw this noise" and bolster their own houses as petty fiefdoms kicking everyone else out of the way.

Fantastic post proving that, as bad as GW can be at writing fluff, they've never written something that makes people cringe compared to people on this forum.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Based off tabletop performance, I would absolutely do that.

Good. Get started. The sooner you abandon this sinking ship you hate the sooner you will feel so much more positive.

Nah, I hate the IG at this point. I feel dirty even souping them in.

Then you have zero reasons to complain the way you do.

Please don't bother to respond anymore. Because I'm not going to read it. Thanks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breton wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Agreed, except on more Primarchs - I'm not really fussed about that.

I think the whole "let's have an Imperial Civil War" is a lazy narrative, personally. The Imperium already IS threatened, it already is weak. It's only thanks to the Primaris and Guilliman that it's not collapsed. Personally, I don't see any Primarchs realistically opposing Guilliman of causing a Civil War, barring the Lion, and ONLY if Guilliman blamed him for the Fallen stuff (which Guilliman wouldn't do in this situation).

There's too much at stake in-universe for a civil war, so I don't think any Primarchs would do anything. At this point as well, no humans can really oppose Guilliman directly in a military manner, due to his status and explicit support from the Emperor and Custodes.

I think this is all fine. The Imperium still sucks. Everything's still "grimdark". The fact that there's simply more going on now narratively opposed to a few years ago is much better for narrative players.

More Primarchs should return if for no other reason than so all the books have at least one. The chaos folks aren't going to have to pick one Black Legion primarch for their Death Guard force, and the same Black Legion Primarch for their Khorn force etc. etc. Non UM's shouldn't have to drag Guilliman around just to have a Primarch. They're not going to do the Civil War 2.0, and they're not going to squat Marines. They'll let the players squat Marines by continually making Primaris just a little bit better. I'd also say the Primarchs have to remain an odd number - for the fluff. They need to have a voter who can break ties, and not be less than a primarch. The best choice to return with the Lion is Sanguinius - they already did this with Imperium Secundus. But they won't - both because the already did it, and they don't know what they're going to do with Sanguinius/BA yet anyway. Russ makes a good alternative who doesn't like or dislike either Johnson or Guilliman. They could bring back Vulkhan as a Sanguinius stand-in for the most Humane primarch.

I still think they should have squatted BA with the Nids. Think of the drama. It could have been red wedding-esque, pun intended.

if you wanna stop playing blood angels, stop playing blood angels; don't demand GW eliminate a faction many other people enjoy just so you can justify going to play guard or whatever faction you want to play

He's not entirely incorrect. Both the Angels armies need to be consolidated because that's part of what's leading to imbalance.

no what's leading to inbalance is "ohh hey, you know whats a good idea, let's give guard chapter tactics on all their units, and marines only on a handful, and lets also give them access to orders to buff them even further. ohh and let's make them 4 PPM" the problem is that they're writing Marines like they're almost too good, and hobbling them, and giving other armies like guard force multipler after force multiplier.

I said it was PART of the equation.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

He's not entirely incorrect. Both the Angels armies need to be consolidated because that's part of what's leading to imbalance.

How exactly do green/red paint and a minor thematic divergence lead to imbalance?

Breton wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

He's not entirely incorrect. Both the Angels armies need to be consolidated because that's part of what's leading to imbalance.

How exactly do green/red paint and a minor thematic divergence lead to imbalance?

the theory is that multiple space marine codices makes it harder to balance, yeah I'm not sure I get the logic eaither

It's special snowfalke units with a lack of actual "chapter tactics" coupled with needing to errata and update each book separately for every single change that gets made when they share so many units. The SM line is already bloated with units that have no clear purpose or who are competing with other units that do the intended job better. Tossing chapter specific units into the mix that just add to that mess is an issue. It's much easier to balance 5 distinct units then it is 15 indistinct, or worse 25 indistinct with these 2 only being available to these guys and these 3 only available to those guys etc etc...

It's a bad situation that keeps being made worse. Spreading it out into 4 books 3 of which are treated as their own armies is mad when they could just as easily be chapters.

 Lance845 wrote:
It's special snowfalke units with a lack of actual "chapter tactics" coupled with needing to errata and update each book separately for every single change that gets made when they share so many units. The SM line is already bloated with units that have no clear purpose or who are competing with other units that do the intended job better. Tossing chapter specific units into the mix that just add to that mess is an issue. It's much easier to balance 5 distinct units then it is 15 indistinct, or worse 25 indistinct with these 2 only being available to these guys and these 3 only available to those guys etc etc...

It's a bad situation that keeps being made worse. Spreading it out into 4 books 3 of which are treated as their own armies is mad when they could just as easily be chapters.

ahh so it's grumpy xenos players upset that space marines get all the kits, gotcha.

BrianDavion wrote:


the theory is that multiple space marine codices makes it harder to balance, yeah I'm not sure I get the logic eaither

The balance problems are far more prevalent in the generic rules, not the paint and chapter symbol or codex. There are very few BA/DA specific rules - probably just as many as there are for SW, probably less than DW. BA aren't balanced because Close Combat currently sucks as a whole - basic CQB troops don't have enough attacks and enough negative armor save mods to keep up with their shooty counterparts. DA, and their Terminators have been (relatively) bad since 3rd Ed, the Ravenwing is expensive and again close combat oriented. Green Wing is BARELY different than Codex SM. All of the Marine codexes share the problems Codex:SM - and just about every elite/low model count army has. The game is balanced on points costs, and victory pointed on model count. Command Points are based on (basically) Force Org slots filled, over the quality of the unit filling the chart. i.e. A double Battalion of Grots - the famously well trained, courageous, obedient beings they are - generate 13 CP (3+5+5) while a Ravenwing/Deathwing combination force of the best of the best of the chapter, including both of their Captains, will generate.. 6? 3+1+1+1 maybe?

It's OK to require Battle Forged for CP, but CP should be some variation on Power Level, or Points based. It should also scale based on Army size, so people playing 500 point games get enough to use some the entire game. I feel like I average around 90-100PL and 8-12 ish CP at 1750 points using the Battalion detachment. I'd wager most armies can't make diverse (significant variations in unit/theme selection) Batallion armies at 1000 points. Even fewer can make one at all at 500 points. If 500 is still the low end of the points they advise (I didn't read the beginner/intro section of the rule book all that closely yet) - then at 500 points you should be able to hammer out at least 6 CP - one per turn, as you get bigger you get diminishing returns.

If you got 5 for being battle forged, and 1 for the Detachments that give you 1, 2 for a Battallion, and 4 (or 5 as it's 2 Batallions+/-) for a Brigade, that's closer, but still not enough. Especially for the Specialty Detachment stuff they're trying to expand into with the campaign books. For 1 CP during Army Creation making this a specialist detachment, you may choose to spend another CP or more during Army Creation to make specialist squads then able to use any of four more stratagems for 1CP during The Game. If they want to make that into a viable pre-battle army customization option, they'll need to up the CP Generation dramatically. And make more varied Specialist Detachements more available to more armies more often potentially able to pay for/offset itself i.e. - IF you make this detachment a specialist detachment gain 3CP, and at least one unit must be a specialist unit, but then each of the stratagems is 2 CP to use that may or may not refund one CP but does not stack with other refund abilities. I found the Specialist Detachment for the Ravenwing Attack Squadron (and Windrider Host) particularly cruel. An army already relegated to 1CP Generating Outrider Detachments - and lucky to get to 6 total in the first place - is expected to pay 1CP for access to a 2CP stratagem?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:
It's special snowfalke units with a lack of actual "chapter tactics" coupled with needing to errata and update each book separately for every single change that gets made when they share so many units. The SM line is already bloated with units that have no clear purpose or who are competing with other units that do the intended job better. Tossing chapter specific units into the mix that just add to that mess is an issue. It's much easier to balance 5 distinct units then it is 15 indistinct, or worse 25 indistinct with these 2 only being available to these guys and these 3 only available to those guys etc etc...

It's a bad situation that keeps being made worse. Spreading it out into 4 books 3 of which are treated as their own armies is mad when they could just as easily be chapters.

So you're saying the imbalance lies in the differences between the Nephilim Jet Fighter and the Stormtalon Gunship, not 5 CP for 180 points vs 5CP for 600 points? That because Terminators are available in four different army books, that's why they haven't been able to make them not bad for 20 years? That taking away all the game-mechanic available bonus attacks for close combat units - ruining Close Combat in general for everyone, was just to nerf Blood Angels because they had Sanguinary Guard AND Vanguard Veterans?

BrianDavion wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
It's special snowfalke units with a lack of actual "chapter tactics" coupled with needing to errata and update each book separately for every single change that gets made when they share so many units. The SM line is already bloated with units that have no clear purpose or who are competing with other units that do the intended job better. Tossing chapter specific units into the mix that just add to that mess is an issue. It's much easier to balance 5 distinct units then it is 15 indistinct, or worse 25 indistinct with these 2 only being available to these guys and these 3 only available to those guys etc etc...

It's a bad situation that keeps being made worse. Spreading it out into 4 books 3 of which are treated as their own armies is mad when they could just as easily be chapters.

ahh so it's grumpy xenos players upset that space marines get all the kits, gotcha.

Or you could actually read.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breton wrote:

So you're saying the imbalance lies in the differences between the Nephilim Jet Fighter and the Stormtalon Gunship, not 5 CP for 180 points vs 5CP for 600 points? That because Terminators are available in four different army books, that's why they haven't been able to make them not bad for 20 years? That taking away all the game-mechanic available bonus attacks for close combat units - ruining Close Combat in general for everyone, was just to nerf Blood Angels because they had Sanguinary Guard AND Vanguard Veterans?

Terminators are bad because what exactly is their niche that another unit isn't doing better? Primarus are more durable (or at least equally durable while being more capable) with their extra wound in gravis armor (even without the invul save). Other units do better in melee even though none of the SM line does great at it in 40k (apoc handles it much better). Jump units handle deepstrike better especially with a higher M and FLY. Other units handle shooting better.

Terminator pay a premium for a 2+ save with a 5++ that isn't worth what you pay for and are not capable of impacting the field in the ways other units can. So what are you using them for?

That right there... thats the problem with the whole SM line. Primaris are at least units with a distinct job. When the eventual axe gets dropped on old marines and they get squatted SM will be left with a bunch of units that fill distinct roles and complement each other instead of the mess it is now. The side codex armies just help to further muddy the waters.

Sorry your special snowfalke isn't that special.

 Lance845 wrote:

Breton wrote:

So you're saying the imbalance lies in the differences between the Nephilim Jet Fighter and the Stormtalon Gunship, not 5 CP for 180 points vs 5CP for 600 points? That because Terminators are available in four different army books, that's why they haven't been able to make them not bad for 20 years? That taking away all the game-mechanic available bonus attacks for close combat units - ruining Close Combat in general for everyone, was just to nerf Blood Angels because they had Sanguinary Guard AND Vanguard Veterans?

Terminators are bad because what exactly is their niche that another unit isn't doing better? Primarus are more durable (or at least equally durable while being more capable) with their extra wound in gravis armor (even without the invul save). Other units do better in melee even though none of the SM line does great at it in 40k (apoc handles it much better). Jump units handle deepstrike better especially with a higher M and FLY. Other units handle shooting better.

Terminator pay a premium for a 2+ save with a 5++ that isn't worth what you pay for and are not capable of impacting the field in the ways other units can. So what are you using them for?

That right there... thats the problem with the whole SM line. Primaris are at least units with a distinct job. When the eventual axe gets dropped on old marines and they get squatted SM will be left with a bunch of units that fill distinct roles and complement each other instead of the mess it is now. The side codex armies just help to further muddy the waters.

Sorry your special snowfalke isn't that special.

 Lance845 wrote:


Or you could actually read.

Perhaps you should take your own advice? That did not answer a single question I asked. Are the questions too complex to read?

I gave you two specific examples of units with similar function in two of the codexes. Is the problem rooted in the differences between the Nephilim Jet Fighter and the Stormtalon Gunship?

Terminators have been bad far far far longer than Primaris have been around. The question asked was- Is the presence of Terminators in four+ different books why they haven't been good in over 20 years?

You don't think the inconsistent use of points/power level and Model Count/Force Org Chart Completion affecting in-game mechanics is a far bigger balance problem?

Are you suggesting the global close combat rules were so severely curtailed and minimized simply to nerf Blood Angels because they have Sanguinary Guard, Vanguard Veterans (and Death Company)?

 Sir Fred wrote:
I don’t think they will be getting rid of them any time soon.

I know. They blew their chance.

Maybe when you quote me you should actually quote me instead of using a quote box and then typing out a sentence I did not write.

Primaris are not the things making the SM line bloated. If anything they are cleaning it up. Again, they have distinct roles to fill and do not overlap each other or step on each others toes for getting a job done. The rest of the SM line can't say that. SM have been bloated for a long time before that.

I don't think that points/PL are a problem. I don't think the force org chart is a probem except that the ones used in 40k basically serve no purpose because they are not restricting in any capacity.

When did I say anything about a conspiracy to nerf specific armies by creating core melee rules that are not great? Black Templar suffer just as much and they don't need to have their own book to do it.

I honestly don't know enough about the gunships to comment on them, which is why I didn't. I also don't care enough about them and CP to research them and find out what you are talking about. You can explain it out for me and I may or may not agree with you. But as it stands it's simply a talking point I don't know enough about to debate.

You mentioned Terminators being crap. I explained why.

Primaris are still terrible in practice, though. Gravis is a failure. D2 dominates non-intercessors so hard at their price. Too much reliance on plasma that falls apart vs minus to hit.

Martel732 wrote:
Primaris are still terrible in practice, though. Gravis is a failure. D2 dominates non-intercessors so hard at their price. Too much reliance on plasma that falls apart vs minus to hit.

Right now Primaris is a partial line. With the rate they release new kits the rest of the line will fill out and the roles they don't fill yet will get filled. Once old marines are gone they won't have to get priced in comparison to old marines and can probably recieve a modest points discount. This of course is assuming GW is in any capacity competent and not going to over value durability again for the primaris line. It very well may be that the whole SM line sucks for a long time because GW sucks at doing their job. But a army of pure primaris is filling out. Named characters are starting to come out. Lots of generic characters exist. More and more units and vehicles to fill the roles needed to make a army are being released quicker then ever. Just a matter of time.

I get that, but most primaris-heavy lists are still autolosing to triple ravager in my area. And multi-damage spam IG lists.

 Lance845 wrote:
Maybe when you quote me you should actually quote me instead of using a quote box and then typing out a sentence I did not write.

Primaris are not the things making the SM line bloated. If anything they are cleaning it up. Again, they have distinct roles to fill and do not overlap each other or step on each others toes for getting a job done. The rest of the SM line can't say that. SM have been bloated for a long time before that.

I don't think that points/PL are a problem. I don't think the force org chart is a probem except that the ones used in 40k basically serve no purpose because they are not restricting in any capacity.

When did I say anything about a conspiracy to nerf specific armies by creating core melee rules that are not great? Black Templar suffer just as much and they don't need to have their own book to do it.

I honestly don't know enough about the gunships to comment on them, which is why I didn't. I also don't care enough about them and CP to research them and find out what you are talking about. You can explain it out for me and I may or may not agree with you. But as it stands it's simply a talking point I don't know enough about to debate.

You mentioned Terminators being crap. I explained why.

I noticed the error and fixed it, my last edit time stamp is :54, while your post time is :56. I was going to toss your own snark back at you, then changed it to doing so with a quote and forgot to hit paste. Sue me.

The New stuff doesn't make it bloated, its the old stuff that was here first. Excellent Hot Take.

You don't think armies that are bought in points used to balance horde and elite armies but win on model count that totally favors the horde is a problem? But a black jet fighter with a BIG Dakka Bolter for DA and a Blue jet fighter with either a medium Dakka Gun or two anti-tank lasers is totally game breaking? I'm asking a third time because you still have not answered the question. I see you do admit you don't actually know the two units in question from the two codexes you are blaming for this imbalance. So you don't know what is in the books you blame for the balance issues?

You don't know enough about a BRB Game mechanic to comment on how game breaking it may be while you're complaining about two faction books you're not familiar enough yet still blame for balance issues? Nor do you care enough about this potential balance issue to bother figuring out if your claim is correct?

As for the Blood Angel thing, it was a question, not a statement. And it was more than a little Reductio Ad Absurdum - as you blame the BA (And DA) codex for the balance issues in the BRB containing close combat rules. In other words, I'm pointing out how laughably ridiculous it is - with yet another example (Close combat, Victory Points/Objective Securing, Command Points/Force Org) - to claim four Space Marine Chapter books cause the balance issues when the Big Rule Book has enough all on it's own.

Martel732 wrote:
I get that, but most primaris-heavy lists are still autolosing to triple ravager in my area. And multi-damage spam IG lists.

Sure. What Primaris do now has nothing to do with what Primaris will be when they are done. Honestly it's a big unknown how effective the final product will be. It's not a question of if there will be a Primaris only line (there will be). It's only a question of if GW can price the units and write the rules competently (good luck. Sincerely... good luck. I want the armies to be balanced.).

So you don't think future primaris will be picked up by dissy cannons in en masse?

For good or bad the game is about as balanced as I've ever seen it since starting way back in 3rd edition.

I don't think GW really want balance, they seem to just love these days changing what is unbalanced in a more regular fashion. Running it round and round so people chase the meta.

I mean you can say Primaris will clean up marines, but to me it just makes it so much more dull, lacking the choice and interest of why I liked marines in the first place. There are few units more boring at this moment than Primaris battleline troops with just bolt rifles.

Breton wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Maybe when you quote me you should actually quote me instead of using a quote box and then typing out a sentence I did not write.

Primaris are not the things making the SM line bloated. If anything they are cleaning it up. Again, they have distinct roles to fill and do not overlap each other or step on each others toes for getting a job done. The rest of the SM line can't say that. SM have been bloated for a long time before that.

I don't think that points/PL are a problem. I don't think the force org chart is a probem except that the ones used in 40k basically serve no purpose because they are not restricting in any capacity.

When did I say anything about a conspiracy to nerf specific armies by creating core melee rules that are not great? Black Templar suffer just as much and they don't need to have their own book to do it.

I honestly don't know enough about the gunships to comment on them, which is why I didn't. I also don't care enough about them and CP to research them and find out what you are talking about. You can explain it out for me and I may or may not agree with you. But as it stands it's simply a talking point I don't know enough about to debate.

You mentioned Terminators being crap. I explained why.

I noticed the error and fixed it, my last edit time stamp is :54, while your post time is :56. I was going to toss your own snark back at you, then changed it to doing so with a quote and forgot to hit paste. Sue me.

Yup. And it took me more than 2 seconds to write my post. So my comment was still valid last I looked at what I was responding to. Or do you think I type 6,930 words per minute?

The New stuff doesn't make it bloated, its the old stuff that was here first. Excellent Hot Take.

Thank you.

You don't think armies that are bought in points used to balance horde and elite armies but win on model count that totally favors the horde is a problem?

I think basic 40k has ALOT of problems.

But a black jet fighter with a BIG Dakka Bolter for DA and a Blue jet fighter with either a medium Dakka Gun or two anti-tank lasers is totally game breaking? I'm asking a third time because you still have not answered the question. I see you do admit you don't actually know the two units in question from the two codexes you are blaming for this imbalance. So you don't know what is in the books you blame for the balance issues?

I know a lot about whats in the books. I don't know the specific issues between every unit. I know that SM have like... 5 different units they want in melee with clearly superior choices and clearly inferior choices while none of them are performing particularly well. I know that Spacewolves then get extra units that also want to be in melee. And then Blood angles get extra units that want to be in melee. And then DA get extra units that want to be in melee. Tell me, how are DAs Deathwing Knights compare to regular melee terminators compared to assault marines compared to vanguard vets?

What are Crusader squads vs all those other units? How about the wolf riders for space wolves? Death Company? Sanguinary Guards?

All these units are doing the same job. Thats the bloat. The special snowflake variants are still just another unit on the pile of units trying to do the same job. Again, look at the primaris on their own as the army they will one day be. Each unit has a distinct place. It's the difference between termagants and hormagaunts and gargoyles. I don't have 5 different versions of the hormagaunt with special snowflake versions based on hive fleet on top of that. I just have hormagaunts. Their role is distinct. Even when you then add in genestealers the genestealers have enough different about them that hormagaunts and genestealers fill different roles and I bring them in a list to fulfill different purposes.

You don't know enough about a BRB Game mechanic to comment on how game breaking it may be while you're complaining about two faction books you're not familiar enough yet still blame for balance issues? Nor do you care enough about this potential balance issue to bother figuring out if your claim is correct?

Again, read. I didn't say I don't know enough about the core rules. I seem to have a better grasp on them then you. I said I don't know enough about those 2 units and their problems. Stop taking what I am saying and inferring dumb nonsense from it. Take the words I wrote and answer those words. It should be easy. Use the quote function and then read it while you are responding. Don't change what I wrote and you won't have to be confused about what I was actually saying.

As for the Blood Angel thing, it was a question, not a statement. And it was more than a little Reductio Ad Absurdum - as you blame the BA (And DA) codex for the balance issues in the BRB containing close combat rules.

I did not say that. I would ask you to quote me saying that but your quoting skills are currently in question.

In other words, I'm pointing out how laughably ridiculous it is - with yet another example (Close combat, Victory Points/Objective Securing, Command Points/Force Org) - to claim four Space Marine Chapter books cause the balance issues when the Big Rule Book has enough all on it's own.

The SM "Chapter books" add to and conflate the issues. They are at best unnecessary. At face value part of the problem. At worst some of the more egregious examples of the problem.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
For good or bad the game is about as balanced as I've ever seen it since starting way back in 3rd edition.

I don't think GW really want balance, they seem to just love these days changing what is unbalanced in a more regular fashion. Running it round and round so people chase the meta.

I mean you can say Primaris will clean up marines, but to me it just makes it so much more dull, lacking the choice and interest of why I liked marines in the first place. There are few units more boring at this moment than Primaris battleline troops with just bolt rifles.

Most of those choices are false choices at the moment. You can't afford to equip tac marines because it makes them too fragile.