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Anathir wrote:
I wonder where this is going to go. GW can either knock this out of park or it will fizzle out. It depends which races they support. If they support the secondary and tertiary races like kislev, nippon, cathay and araby and don't include some of the famous races like high elves, dwarfs, lizardmen, etc then I don't expect this to last long. Surely GW know it is the races that made Total War Warhammer such a success. People don't want asian humans, slavic humans, indian humans, etc. .

But that’s basically what HH is...“which flavor of Marines do you want to play?”

And, I’d love to see them release things that were never explored before than the same old Tolkien based game we had...because that failed before, why rehash it?

Anathir wrote:
Anything less than all 16 of the original races would be a disaster because they are what makes the WHFB setting what it is. It would be like making a 30k Horus Heresy game but basing on what the Eldar were doing at that time, or leaving whole chapters or primarchs out.

Expect it to be a “disaster” then. GW have never got close to simultaneously releasing 16 different forces for any game, ever. And to expect them to is unreasonable

MaxT wrote:

Anathir wrote:
Anything less than all 16 of the original races would be a disaster because they are what makes the WHFB setting what it is. It would be like making a 30k Horus Heresy game but basing on what the Eldar were doing at that time, or leaving whole chapters or primarchs out.

Expect it to be a “disaster” then. GW have never got close to simultaneously releasing 16 different forces for any game, ever. And to expect them to is unreasonable

Allow me to introduce you to 6th ed and Ravening Hordes, which contained lists for every single army including Chaos Dwarfs because they'd just invalidated every single Army Book.

MaxT wrote:

Expect it to be a “disaster” then. GW have never got close to simultaneously releasing 16 different forces for any game, ever. And to expect them to is unreasonable

yeah 6th Edition Fantasy and 3rd & 8th Edition 40k were not made by GW I guess

Whilst balance was not great they did realase the Entire 40k range in indexes for 40k 8th AND the entire WFB legacy range for Age of Sigmar.

Book of the Astronomican had all the then current 40k Army lists.

Did they release models for 16 different armies at the same time? And were those armies at least between 5-10 model kits per army?


Cause that's what people mean when they say GW releasing 16 armies at once.

As opposed to rules for 16 armies and releasing only models for 2 or 4 or so at launch. Personally as I see it GW has nothing to gain releasing a huge host of rules for armies that they don't sell models for; esp in the modern market where 3rd parites would very fast undercut GW online and get armies out onto the market far quicker.

Why should GW risk that competition and have customers moving to other firms when they can just release a few armies and then add in new armies in stages adding in the rules when the army comes out through an Armybook

 Platuan4th wrote:

MaxT wrote:

Anathir wrote:
Anything less than all 16 of the original races would be a disaster because they are what makes the WHFB setting what it is. It would be like making a 30k Horus Heresy game but basing on what the Eldar were doing at that time, or leaving whole chapters or primarchs out.

Expect it to be a “disaster” then. GW have never got close to simultaneously releasing 16 different forces for any game, ever. And to expect them to is unreasonable

Allow me to introduce you to 6th ed and Ravening Hordes, which contained lists for every single army including Chaos Dwarfs because they'd just invalidated every single Army Book.

Not seeing any models there chuck. GW got out of the rules only business a while ago.

 Overread wrote:
Did they release models for 16 different armies at the same time? And were those armies at least between 5-10 model kits per army?

To be fair, they've given themselves at least three years to prepare... Given that (if they're just reusing the old models for the most part) some of this stuff would have still been sitting in the warehouse from last time around, and most of it is likely to be direct order rather than needing to be shipped around the planet to stores, and that they almost always under-produce for new releases anyway, it's not actually too outlandish an idea.

 Overread wrote:
Did they release models for 16 different armies at the same time? And were those armies at least between 5-10 model kits per army

all models from those lists were available by that time

 kodos wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Did they release models for 16 different armies at the same time? And were those armies at least between 5-10 model kits per army

all models from those lists were available by that time

Yes, over a period of 20 years. Not in the same month or 2

MaxT wrote:

 kodos wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Did they release models for 16 different armies at the same time? And were those armies at least between 5-10 model kits per army

all models from those lists were available by that time

Yes, over a period of 20 years. Not in the same month or 2

Why are you suggesting they don’t have the ability to release minis that already exist?

They could easily rerelease their entire plastic range circa 8th edition along with a handful of flavorful new kits that expand the setting and generate new interest.

 insaniak wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Did they release models for 16 different armies at the same time? And were those armies at least between 5-10 model kits per army?

To be fair, they've given themselves at least three years to prepare... Given that (if they're just reusing the old models for the most part) some of this stuff would have still been sitting in the warehouse from last time around, and most of it is likely to be direct order rather than needing to be shipped around the planet to stores, and that they almost always under-produce for new releases anyway, it's not actually too outlandish an idea.

I don't know if "reusing the old models for the most part" is the right terminology for it. A lot of the stuff that could show up(Dwarf Warriors/Rangers, Glade Guard/Deepwood Scouts/Waywatchers, High Elf Spearmen/Swordmasters/Archers/Silver Helms) would show its age as kits now. The Glade Guard kit in particular really doesn't live up to the same aesthetic that they've established now for the Wanderers range(and that quite a bit of artwork for the Wood Elves in recent years had, stuff like leaf/dagged mail)...so it might be that they're kits that will have dual purpose?

Wishful thinking maybe.

The Glade Guard might not fit whatever the Wanderers are, but they fit Warhammer Fantasy Wood Elves just fine.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
The Glade Guard might not fit whatever the Wanderers are, but they fit Warhammer Fantasy Wood Elves just fine.

The Glade Guard fit the Wanderers just fine...but they got cut. In any regards, the design ended up fitting the concept of scouts more than anything else as time wore on. There was some art in the WHFB 8th(and possibly 7th?) core books done up in the Paul Dainton style of Wood Elves for what we might see for a 'Glade Guard' redesign. They still look like lightly equipped and armored archers, but they have a bit of actual protection afforded to their torsos.

They were very in line with this art:

I'll see if I can find page numbers later for the specific piece I'm referring to.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

MaxT wrote:

 kodos wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Did they release models for 16 different armies at the same time? And were those armies at least between 5-10 model kits per army

all models from those lists were available by that time

Yes, over a period of 20 years. Not in the same month or 2

Why are you suggesting they don’t have the ability to release minis that already exist?

They could easily rerelease their entire plastic range circa 8th edition along with a handful of flavorful new kits that expand the setting and generate new interest.

Given their track record I don't think anyone is expecting them to re-release old miniatures. Apart from anything else they have a quality standard now that is far and away higher than any previous WFB products, so releasing old miniatures wouldn't look good to them.

I think you'll find the main reason no one is expecting the entire range to reappear is that no one seriously thinks GW will release 10+ year old sprues again as a core product line.


As nice and 'easy' as that is, it wouldn't make financial, reputational, or qualitative sense to do so.

 Hellebore wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

MaxT wrote:

 kodos wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Did they release models for 16 different armies at the same time? And were those armies at least between 5-10 model kits per army

all models from those lists were available by that time

Yes, over a period of 20 years. Not in the same month or 2

Why are you suggesting they don’t have the ability to release minis that already exist?

They could easily rerelease their entire plastic range circa 8th edition along with a handful of flavorful new kits that expand the setting and generate new interest.

Given their track record I don't think anyone is expecting them to re-release old miniatures. Apart from anything else they have a quality standard now that is far and away higher than any previous WFB products, so releasing old miniatures wouldn't look good to them.

I think you'll find the main reason no one is expecting the entire range to reappear is that no one seriously thinks GW will release 10+ year old sprues again as a core product line.


As nice and 'easy' as that is, it wouldn't make financial, reputational, or qualitative sense to do so.

Well, if they think they’re going to give us the Old World with a handful of redesigned and thrice-as-expensive core kits we already own...They’ll probably make a decent amount of money—not my money—for a couple quarters before they flush it all again. It strikes me as wasteful to bring back the Old World and then redesign it from the ground up.

 Vermis wrote:

Graphite wrote:Isn't the sea one of the reasons that the Norse are less chaotic?

All this time I wondered why the norscans had any kind of distinctiveness when everything north of troll country was warpdust-coated crazy nutso Chaos territory, and why they weren't just typical spiky chaos warriors and marauders. That there was an extra sea there all this time, cutting Norsca off, helps explain it. Still Chaos influenced, but not swamped.

Interested to see a bit more about norse dwarfs too.

Well, for one thing, Dwarfs are naturally resistant to magic, so Chaos can't affect them as much. It's why the Chaos Dwarfs aren't hideously mutated.

 Hellebore wrote:

Given their track record I don't think anyone is expecting them to re-release old miniatures.

I am, if the game is intended to be a full-scale recreation of WHFB. Because the alternative would be them taking a decade to get all of the forces re-released, and I just don't see that being a viable plan.


So I expect that it will either be a 'Forces of Good' and 'Forces of Evil' type affair, with a bunch of new sculpts for each side drawn from the various WHFB and all blobbed in together in mixed race armies... or it will be more like the old WHFB and will feature a handful of new units for each faction alongside the old plastics.

I think you'll find the main reason no one is expecting the entire range to reappear is that no one seriously thinks GW will release 10+ year old sprues again as a core product line.

We don't know that this is going to be a core product line.

And we have precedent for GW releasing old and sub-par kits when it suits them. See the Battle for Vedros sets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
The Glade Guard might not fit whatever the Wanderers are, but they fit Warhammer Fantasy Wood Elves just fine.

The Glade Guard fit the Wanderers just fine...but they got cut. In any regards, the design ended up fitting the concept of scouts more than anything else as time wore on. There was some art in the WHFB 8th(and possibly 7th?) core books done up in the Paul Dainton style of Wood Elves for what we might see for a 'Glade Guard' redesign. They still look like lightly equipped and armored archers, but they have a bit of actual protection afforded to their torsos.

They were very in line with this art:

Spoiler:

I'll see if I can find page numbers later for the specific piece I'm referring to.

I'm confused... those look like Glade Guard.

There's a bit more detailing to the art than what the actual Glade Guard models had. Notably the scalemail that you can see on both the Sisters of Twilight and the art below.

On the physical models of the Glade Guard? That was just bare skin. Then there's the separation between the cape/mantle and the skirting around the legs that's better shown in the lower piece of art.

When Glade Guard first came out? Those kits were gorgeous...but they can do so, so much better now.

 insaniak wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:

Given their track record I don't think anyone is expecting them to re-release old miniatures.

I am, if the game is intended to be a full-scale recreation of WHFB. Because the alternative would be them taking a decade to get all of the forces re-released, and I just don't see that being a viable plan.


So I expect that it will either be a 'Forces of Good' and 'Forces of Evil' type affair, with a bunch of new sculpts for each side drawn from the various WHFB and all blobbed in together in mixed race armies... or it will be more like the old WHFB and will feature a handful of new units for each faction alongside the old plastics.

I think you'll find the main reason no one is expecting the entire range to reappear is that no one seriously thinks GW will release 10+ year old sprues again as a core product line.

We don't know that this is going to be a core product line.

And we have precedent for GW releasing old and sub-par kits when it suits them. See the Battle for Vedros sets.

It's possible and I'd love them to do it, but 3 years is far too long if 90% of your releases are existing product.

the battle for vedros was released under their easy to build starter line, not as a whole 'new' (old) game. It was a way to put cheap minis out for people to get into.

I'd be happy to be wrong. But It seems to me that GW are very much 'the new hotness' strategically, and only a very few ranges from WFB are new enough to get that re-release.

Maybe what they'll do is focus on a couple of new ranges, updated empire knights etc, plus kislev and release small supporting faction sets using only the best of their old stuff? Dwarf ironbreakers for example?

I can see them reusing units they still sell for AOS as they were originally WFB anyway.


While they're at it I'd love them to delve back into their EPIC and BFG plastic moulds and start producing those again...

 Hellebore wrote:

It's possible and I'd love them to do it, but 3 years is far too long if 90% of your releases are existing product.

It's really not, particularly if they don't have a lot of old stock still in the warehouse. They had been reducing the amount of stuff they wanted to store for some time now (one of the reasons for the constant out of stocks) and getting that many sprues back into production isn't something that can happen overnight, particularly without affecting their production of everything else.

We also don't know what state the rules are in at this point.

Well all we can do is wait and see.

I'd be happy with them just bringing back 6th ed ravening hordes style as that was IMO probably the simplest and best WFB ever was.

They seem to be doing something at least a little new though.

My prediction is:

A new ruleset, but perhaps based on an older version of the game (not just 8th ed rejigged) to bring back the nostalgia people (they did this with Necromunda and AT), not designed as a tournament game but as a nostalgia narrative one based around the Great War, and similar to Horus Heresy.

Focusing on armies of new miniatures, starting with Kislev, Empire and Chaos.

I don't see them reusing existing miniatures in AOS for this because it could dilute or confuse their brands if customers don't know what is what. also if they're going for square bases they'd have to RE RE box old units with square bases again.

You'd either get two of the same unit with different bases, or a single box with twice the bases so you can choose which game you want them for.


It seems to me that the bases and separation of games are a big reason why'd they'd not want to mix units up.


But we'll just have to see...

In that reimagining vein perhaps they go for a Warmaster type system but using WHFB scale models with multi basing as an inherent part of the game.

The rules being aimed at more of a 3000-4000 point size in relation to 8th Fantasy in the way HH was built to have bigger units and more toys than the standard game of the time.

 Hellebore wrote:

I don't see them reusing existing miniatures in AOS for this because it could dilute or confuse their brands if customers don't know what is what. also if they're going for square bases they'd have to RE RE box old units with square bases again.

You'd either get two of the same unit with different bases, or a single box with twice the bases so you can choose which game you want them for..

They've done the twin base thing before - Space Marines with both 25mm and the newer, larger bases, and Chaos Daemons for a long time came with both square and round.

Assuming they're going to ranked fantasy (which the square base teased a while back would seem to suggest) it would only be those models previously released for WHFB that would be suitable for this treatment, though, as the newer models released specifically for AoS aren't designed to rank up.

As another thought - maybe the reason we're seeing "unreleased faction" artwork for Kislev before anything else is that Total War 3 will be coming out before The Old World - and they're unifying their art direction with CA

Everything south of Kislev already exists and doesn't need concept art.

 Graphite wrote:
As another thought - maybe the reason we're seeing "unreleased faction" artwork for Kislev before anything else is that Total War 3 will be coming out before The Old World - and they're unifying their art direction with CA

Everything south of Kislev already exists and doesn't need concept art.

Its plausible. There are fan mods for Kislev and its possible that CA sees that as a demand for Kislev and wants to add them in the next game to get more appeal.
Its also possible for GW and CA to collaborate to help drive profits for each other.

They'll need 4 races for Total War 3 if they want to keep with the previous pattern. Also on previous experience they expand the map, and north and east are the logical directions to go.

That brings in Ogres (who are already pretty sorted for design) and Chaos Warriors of various non-norscan tribes. Probably Daemons. Possibly Chaos Dwarfs rather than Warriors if they feel that the Chaos roster is fleshed out enough, but I suspect they're more likely to be DLC.

To get to either of those things, you have to go through or near Kislev.

I'd be surprised if the campaign doesn't involve a massive Chaos incursion. Possibly The End Times.

So either you expand Kislev, or you leave them like Tilea and the other minor human kingdoms.

 Graphite wrote:
They'll need 4 races for Total War 3 if they want to keep with the previous pattern. Also on previous experience they expand the map, and north and east are the logical directions to go.

That brings in Ogres (who are already pretty sorted for design) and Chaos Warriors of various non-norscan tribes. Probably Daemons. Possibly Chaos Dwarfs rather than Warriors if they feel that the Chaos roster is fleshed out enough, but I suspect they're more likely to be DLC.

To get to either of those things, you have to go through or near Kislev.

I'd be surprised if the campaign doesn't involve a massive Chaos incursion. Possibly The End Times.

So either you expand Kislev, or you leave them like Tilea and the other minor human kingdoms.

Been thinking about this. My guess would be Kislev, Ogres, Chaos Dwarves definitely, and then possibly Tamurkhan's horde, or another Turkic/Kurgan-flavoured army, especially given the rivalry of kurgan and kislev.

If they do decide to flesh out any of those not-historical historical stereotypes, my bet would be on Araby rather than Estalia, Tilea, Ind, Nippon or Cathay.

I suppose they may even make a couple of mono-chaos-god armies based on any of the aforementioned factions perhaps, in addition to the potential Tamurkhan's horde.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Graphite wrote:
As another thought - maybe the reason we're seeing "unreleased faction" artwork for Kislev before anything else is that Total War 3 will be coming out before The Old World - and they're unifying their art direction with CA

Everything south of Kislev already exists and doesn't need concept art.

This appears almost definitely to be the case.

Don't know about that. Daemon armies must surely be on the cards ahead of Chaos Dwarfs.

 Graphite wrote:
Don't know about that. Daemon armies must surely be on the cards ahead of Chaos Dwarfs.

That's also seems very likely. However, a potential problem with daemon faction in a TW game is the campaign map aspect. Sure, they may put them in the heart of the chaos wastes and give them some sort of building roster, but with them not being a people (naton/fraction/whatever) may end up boring and probably immersion breaking.

Even on the tabletop, I always thought daemon armies in WHFB never amounted to more than simply being a magical gimmick because of that.

They don't really have a stake of their own (or relatable/understandable longer-term agency) for one to immerse oneself with unlike the rest of the factions, and that may only be more noticeable in a game like TW. It's mainly because of that I'd prefer daemon/mortal combined monogod factions, but again, this is just wishlisting, not a prognosis.

All that said, we'll most probably see an all-daemon faction.