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Well they had to make a Amry book for Kislev Cathay for CA's Total War so they have done the time and effort for that already so you would assume they would double down on using it
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Paymaster Games wrote: As some one who is very excited about the Old World, i am hanging on every update and building and painting new units for my army waiting for the release date to be reveiled.
Other then the cities of sigmar, lizardmen, Ogres and some chaos and greenskin models it is very unlikely that any AoS models with see the light of day in the Old World.
The Old World will likely be inspired by 6th edition, which was the most ballanced edition, with elements from the other editions added in. GW stated that the Old World setting will be durning the time of three emperers, which saw huge changes to the Warhammer World setting, like the Rise of the Vampire Counts, The Waaagh of Gorbad Ironclaw, and the Great War of Chaos. This is going to be a great setting for Warhammer since so many of the nations got their chance rise whlie the Empire was at its weakest. I am pumped. GW also said that all of the armies from the Old World would be playable. So that would make 6 Old World armies ( Empire, Bretonia, Tilea/Dogs Of War, Dwarfs, Wood Elves, and Skaven), 3 Armies from The Badlands and the East (Greenskins, Chaos Dwarves and Ogres), One army to the South (Tomb Kings) and 3 armies to the West (High Elves, Dark Elves and Lizardmen) and Chaos to the North. That is 14 armies to start (15 if you count Beastmen). If thier is any truth to the talk about new armies we may see armies for Kislev, Gand Cathey, Norsica, and Golden Hoard of Hobgobla Khan. It is so hard not to get excited about this game.
When it comes to basing, GW said that square bases are returning fo rthe Old World. I am willing to take them at their word. I know people who rebased their Warhammer models to play AoS, but most of the people i know put their Warhammer models on a shelf, switched to KoW (Which released several WHFB themed armies right after the Death of Warhammer) or bought new if they started up AoS. Basing is importent in Warhammer, it determines who can fight, how many ranks you have, how your units manuver on the battlefeild. So this would have to fall back on the Hobby skills of the different players to make the basing options that work for them. I remember seeing units mounted on strips and monster bases. I know that if you wanted to reuse you AoS models for Warhammer i am sure you could figure out a way to to do it with out rebasing a single model.
I hope that in the Warhammer Day tomorrow that they will finally release news for the Old World. I am looking forward to returning to Warhammer.
I don't understand your first line. If you love Warhammer that much, then why don't you still keep playing it. You still have your old rulebooks and Army books I assume - as will most of your old regular gamers. Why do you need GW to sell you more stuff - most likely with changes that will affect your existing army?
I know when new editions come out and people say to keep on playing the old version, it's harder, as many move onto the new version, but when GW didn't make a new version, why didn't you just keep on playing the game you already had?
I get what you are saying here, but for many players its not that simple. Lots of gaming communities and clubs are 'tied' to the latest GW releases, not everyone is lucky enough to have a group of playing friends that will play games which are not current. I think a good percentage of gamers are basically in the position of Timmy standing outside of Scrooge's window, waiting for the half-eaten chicken leg to be thrown to them, and for whatever reason they can't tuck in to the feast that they already have. Usually this is because they have to go with whatever their club or store goes with, and quite often that framework is provided by the parent company making the game, for good or ill.
I'm very fortunate that I can play older versions of 40k and we are running a Necromunda campaign which is a combination of old and new versions and has the new version's most egregious rule imbalances or campaign stuff ignored. But, if you look around you at the community you see people putting their head in their hands because of some new rule that they know will torpedo their campaign, or the new HH release for example which has suddenly invalidated an army costing hundreds of £s and that took hundreds of hours to complete. You can see why people get highly strung about this stuff!
But I remember what happened in some of my local gaming groups when WHFB was torched - its the only time, in my lifetime, that I have seen a grown man reduced to tears by what happened with that game. He and his gaming colleagues used to travel across Europe playing WHFB tournaments, gaming every week, really into the game and multiple armies. Then the game was killed and replaced with something where you could do a dance on the side of the table or speak to your characters for bonuses re-rolls, and was markedly a completely different game than what had come before. Despite this, despite the bond that group of gamers had, very few of them carried on with the old game. Some switched to AoS, some moved to other rank & file games, others stopped altogether. But it's remarkable how it managed to fracture that community. So not everyone can carry on with what they want to, and I've seen personally even very close gaming groups get split apart by new releases, either because the game has been killed (as with WHFB), or because a poor new version of it has made people want to stop playing - this seems to afflict numerous companies, not just GW.
I think several important factors...
- WHFB has a large number of supporters, but they weren't all playing at the time when WHFB was killed. The final editions were ones that divided the community, some people liked them, some people didn't, many people quit in the last few years before GW killed it... sadly a lot were drawn back in by the End Times before they figured out the title of the campaign was literal.
- Even before WHFB was killed, the community was very divided on what edition to play, when GW killed it this made the community fracture even more. Some people jumped to fan rules, some to older editions, some stuck to the final edition. It's always better for a game (and easier to maintain a local community) if everyone is at least somewhat on the same page.
- WHFB is a painfully expensive game, both in time and money investment. I might start an Epic army even though I know there's no one else nearby playing it, knowing that I can build and paint 2 separate armies and try and start a community myself. Even if I fail, I have 2 armies that I can use like a glorified board game if I want. Building a WHFB army when there's not a community already going to join is a big ask. If Blood Bowl died tomorrow, no worries, it can and did survive without GW supporting it. WHFB, not so much, and it has nothing to do with the dedication of the BB community vs the WHFB community, one game is just better suited to surviving without any support from the manufacturer.
- Some communities did go on for a while, but in communities there's a cycle of old players dropping off, new players starting, occasionally a cool release brings some of those old players back again. Once GW kills the game the cycle dies, old players leave and never come back (rather than coming back when they see a new shiny they like) and try getting new players into a game where they can't buy most of an army, the coolest models are unavailable or expensive 2nd hand, the books aren't available and people can't even decide which books you should buy.
- WHFB was a gradual-build game. Most people didn't just go out one weekend and buy a whole army and call it done, they'd slowly build their army over the course of years or decades. When GW killed it, for many people that kills the whole gradually building thing.
All that said, there are still people who play WHFB and/or use their WHFB to play other games like KoW, but there's also a lot who loved the game and setting who aren't playing now for one of a dozen reasons.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/08 13:17:02
I agree but I think we all have to brace for disappointment.
My guess:
Launch box with 2 factions.
3-5 insanely priced army books for the old factions
Made to order?
Death
I don't think GW is going to be killing any of their systems, outside of the most niche ones, like Quest. Practically everything they put out is going to be profitable with how the plastic and resin production is set up, so officially ending support for a line just doesn't make any sense for them.
Mr Morden wrote: Well they had to make a Amry book for Kislev Cathay for CA's Total War so they have done the time and effort for that already so you would assume they would double down on using it
They made them an 8th edition book I believe as CA had used 8th books as guides for the existing factions.
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
Would make sense if they've kept tabs on the resell demand for those factions.
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
Mr Morden wrote: Well they had to make a Amry book for Kislev Cathay for CA's Total War so they have done the time and effort for that already so you would assume they would double down on using it
They made them an 8th edition book I believe as CA had used 8th books as guides for the existing factions.
There wasn't any 8th book for Vampire Coast, Norsca, Kislev or Cathay. All factions that CA implemented in the TW series.
That said, I would feel confident in the speculation that CA worked closely with GW with regard to at least Kislev and Cathay and whatever artwork and storyboarding they had in place for bringing back the Old World. I'm sure many NDA's were signed during the development of TW3.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/08 17:06:53
Mr Morden wrote: Well they had to make a Amry book for Kislev Cathay for CA's Total War so they have done the time and effort for that already so you would assume they would double down on using it
They made them an 8th edition book I believe as CA had used 8th books as guides for the existing factions.
There wasn't any 8th book for Vampire Coast, Norsca, Kislev or Cathay. All factions that CA implemented in the TW series.
That said, I would feel confident in the speculation that CA worked closely with GW with regard to at least Kislev and Cathay and whatever artwork and storyboarding they had in place for bringing back the Old World. I'm sure many NDA's were signed during the development of TW3.
We'll likely never know the truth of the matter, but both CA and GW have claimed they worked closely together on the concepts for Kislev and Cathay (CA in their blogs and GW on their community page have claimed that).
But yeah, I'm not sure where the idea that GW made CA army books comes from, CA didn't need an army book to make their game, they just need a rough idea of how units should work and their various strengths and weaknesses, Total War has its own system that goes beyond what was in army books (e.g. the concept of anti-large/anti-armour/anti-infantry, charge bonuses, reload rates, etc).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/08 19:11:10
The idea that GW have a copy of a Cathay army book stems from this interview I think. Andy Hall, ex GW senior writer and Total War lead/principal writer, recalls information for the CA game from a GW edition.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/10/08 19:27:42
In fact, the Warhammer Studio went so far as to establish each and every unit for use on the tabletop, including stats and special abilities.** These numbers were then expertly translated and transposed by the technomancers at Creative Assembly, who deftly wove them into a rich campaign in this never-before-seen part of the Warhammer world.
Luke82 wrote: With any luck, the project has been abandoned. I don’t see what good can really come of it. It will be changed a lot for a variety of sound commercial reasons and split the modest WHFB community. It won’t be ‘new, shiny’ enough for the AoS boys, nor ‘true to the game you love’ enough for the WHFB crowd, and will splutter and die.
The fans are still playing 8th or 6th and I can’t see the new game being anything other than a watered down version of these, and the community is already well used to being outside of GW officialdom by now. Are there really enough looky-loos from total war to make it viable?
Will it die the way the new Necromunda died, or the way the new Blood Bowl did?
Necromunda 2017 is being played by the same crowd which plays HH: 40+ hobbyists. They are a smaller group of the community but still large enough for GW to not ignore them.
Someone mentioned lizardmen above. Are they expected to be part of the old world? I thought the old world was the human (including Northern chaos wastes, cathay, empire,)vampires, elven, and orc/ogre/goblinoid armies...
Is that not the case?
Regards
Sf
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/08 20:07:28
In fact, the Warhammer Studio went so far as to establish each and every unit for use on the tabletop, including stats and special abilities.** These numbers were then expertly translated and transposed by the technomancers at Creative Assembly, who deftly wove them into a rich campaign in this never-before-seen part of the Warhammer world.
** Eighth edition rules, we understand.
It also seems to contrast with Kislev, where it seems GW just gave them their notes and designs for TOW plus some bespoke special characters to use as LLs (like Kostaltin who was apparently designed by Adam Troke) and CA just added that to existing Kislev material from 4th-5th.
Whereas for Cathay, GW talks about writing 8th Ed rules for everything and Andy from CA has mentioned having a physical army book which they made CA since previous lore was so scant.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: But yeah, I'm not sure where the idea that GW made CA army books comes from
from GW themself about TWW3, that they made 8th Editon books so that CA had a base to work with as everything else also was based on 8th Editon books
Okay I guess, just seems like a dumb arse way to do it when Total War has their own stats system that may be inspired by but is totally unique from GW's rules Like why would you bother writing those rules for 8th edition when you can just incorporate them straight into Total War? I get that maybe the GW creators don't know how the CA system works, but still just seems like the arse about way to do it, lol.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: But yeah, I'm not sure where the idea that GW made CA army books comes from
from GW themself about TWW3, that they made 8th Editon books so that CA had a base to work with as everything else also was based on 8th Editon books
Okay I guess, just seems like a dumb arse way to do it when Total War has their own stats system that may be inspired by but is totally unique from GW's rules Like why would you bother writing those rules for 8th edition when you can just incorporate them straight into Total War? I get that maybe the GW creators don't know how the CA system works, but still just seems like the arse about way to do it, lol.
Because they need to stat them up in the original system first to see in which areas they are stronger or weaker than the benchline? Makes sense to me.
The old meta is dead and the new meta struggles to be born. Now is the time of munchkins.
Eldarain wrote: Would make sense if they've kept tabs on the resell demand for those factions.
The resell on both are affected by the fact that by the end of 8th, much of both of those factions were Direct Only already due to lack of popularity/interest. Bretonnians hadn't had a new book since 6th and that required a ton of FAQing to bring in line with 8th ed army building rules. Add on that neither army's lines survived into AoS1 and you have a Rare armies = extra resell effect.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/08 21:39:44
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Not only that but wargamers, whilst we often have impressive unbuilt collections, are often more likely to hold onto things. So rare forces can become even rarer because those who buy tend to hold onto it after an initial fall off interest when the army goes out of production. So right now prices are inflated because hardly anyone will part with models; plus those that do will want to command the higher prices most times.
Also GW has to be aware that armies can sell poorly purely because of how GW has treated them. No or bad rules updates; no model updates; no marketing push or battle reports or lore or anything. Basically if GW ignores something or treats it poorly that army will wane in interest. New people won't get excited, existing fans will discourage others and be less likely to expand collections etc..
Heck that was Old World near the end - right before End Times sparked interest, Old World was a dwindling game.
GW at least now realises that leaving armies whole editoins without updates or updates only at the end is bad business; though it would be nice if they could shift to perhaps 4 or 5 year editions instead of 3!
Depends on how much investment it gets and what you count as an "edition".
Necromunda got re-released in 2017 and has been given 4 rulebooks IIRC but they're essentially clean-ups of the older versions with some new stuff added in i.e. Ash Wastes with vehicles and Dark Uprising with ZM. The basic game hasn't really changed and even taking a huge break from the initial release until Ash Wastes, I still know what everything does.
On the other hand, Kill Team got made into a full game in 2016 and got a 2nd edition in 2018 with a rules switch in 2021 to the current version.
Then you have LotR which is sitting on 4 years for its current edition.
It'll very much be "wait and see", if we ever get to the release date that is.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: But yeah, I'm not sure where the idea that GW made CA army books comes from
from GW themself about TWW3, that they made 8th Editon books so that CA had a base to work with as everything else also was based on 8th Editon books
Okay I guess, just seems like a dumb arse way to do it when Total War has their own stats system that may be inspired by but is totally unique from GW's rules Like why would you bother writing those rules for 8th edition when you can just incorporate them straight into Total War? I get that maybe the GW creators don't know how the CA system works, but still just seems like the arse about way to do it, lol.
Because they need to stat them up in the original system first to see in which areas they are stronger or weaker than the benchline? Makes sense to me.
Except they don't need to do that, because TWW3 already has it's own system that is more granulated that WHFB ever was. There's a bunch of Ws3 S3 units in WHFB that have unique profiles afforded by the more complex system of TWW3 or maybe just different interpretations, a bunch of M4 units in WHFB have different Speed in TWW3 (Zombies, Skeletons and Ghouls all has the same movement in WHFB, but have Speed 23, 31 and 38 respectively in TWW3).
Those existing units would be the benchmark for any new units added.
I guess as a starting point they could write the WHFB statline (M/Ws/Bs/S/T/W/I/A/Ld) as a starting point to ballpark get units in the right location, but that's far from "an army book". Points would be useless as CA would have to do their own balancing, descriptions of special rules and the fluff behind a unit would be useful but actually writing the rule out in 8th edition form would be a complete waste of time.
I'm going to guess there was a bit of poetic license taken in saying GW provided CA with an army book. Though perhaps, interviews with the original GW founders and writers makes me think those are the sort of blokes who would write an unreleased army book for the hell of it during one of their weekend gaming sessions Interviews with more recent GW rules writers make me think they're probably too busy begging for bread and water to survive in their 15 minutes of free time each week to make anything other than the games that get released to the public
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/10/09 04:12:09
Sure, their stats are different, but the stats are still based off of rule books. Skaven are fast in the books, so they're fast in the game. And them there's army rules they'd need to translate. It would be harder for Games Workshop to work with a system they don't understand, so they communicated in a system they both understand. What's so weird about that? Why do so many forum users speak English when they have their own languages that work just fine? Some concepts are better explained in different languages, too. But we need to understand each other, and English is common enough to use as a baseline for communication, even if you're German or Russian. This is just a small scale, non language version of that.
They don't understand all the stats and baselines, and how everything interacts, so they wrote an army book to bridge the gap.
‘What Lorgar’s fanatics have not seen is that these gods are nothing compared to the power and the majesty of the Machine-God. Already, members of our growing cult are using the grace of the Omnissiah – the true Omnissiah, not Terra’s false prophet – to harness the might of the warp. Geller fields, warp missiles, void shields, all these things you are familiar with. But their underlying principles can be turned to so much more. Through novel exploitations of these technologies we will gain mastery first over the energies of the empyrean, then over the lesser entities, until finally the very gods themselves will bend the knee and recognise the supremacy of the Machine-God"
- Heretek Ardim Protos in Titandeath by Guy Haley
Kid_Kyoto wrote: My guess:
Launch box with 2 factions.
3-5 insanely priced army books for the old factions
Made to order?
Death
Warhammer - The Old World: La Sainte Croisade
Features the return of Bretonnia and Tomb Kings, as a legion of Knights and Peasants delves into Khemri on a holy crusade!
Led by Reponse de Lyonnese?
Unfortunately, I suspect that Tomb Kings is the group most likely to get dropped from the Old World release (and I say this as someone who played them). There seemed to be little interest in them amongst the GW staff back in the day. And many elements of their army came across as "similar to Vampire Counts, but weaker and more complicated", which suggests a lack of interest by GW in writing their army books (even 8th edition).
TheBestBucketHead wrote: Sure, their stats are different, but the stats are still based off of rule books. Skaven are fast in the books, so they're fast in the game. And them there's army rules they'd need to translate. It would be harder for Games Workshop to work with a system they don't understand, so they communicated in a system they both understand. What's so weird about that? Why do so many forum users speak English when they have their own languages that work just fine? Some concepts are better explained in different languages, too. But we need to understand each other, and English is common enough to use as a baseline for communication, even if you're German or Russian. This is just a small scale, non language version of that.
They don't understand all the stats and baselines, and how everything interacts, so they wrote an army book to bridge the gap.
I don't speak Japanese, like, at all, if someone's speaking Japanese I have zero idea what they're saying.
Someone who understands WHFB rules can tell at a glance what the TWW3 stats mean.
But as I said, ' they could write the WHFB statline (M/Ws/Bs/S/T/W/I/A/Ld) as a starting point to ballpark get units in the right location, but that's far from "an army book" '.
A full army book is simply not needed. Maybe they wrote one anyway, but it's far from needed.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/10/09 07:16:47
I've beaten Total War Warhammer 2 and I still don't know what most of the numbers mean in depth. I see 30 speed and don't really know the exact implications. I still have no idea how much Melee Defense makes a difference, and Armor is weird.
But, yeah, they probably didn't need a full army book. They probably didn't add art and lots of lore, but once all the units are down, it's pretty easy to divide units between Lords, Heroes, Core, Special, and Rare, and then maybe give a faction or two with different selections, and add army rules. It honestly could have been a pretty fun weekend project, because they didn't really need to worry about balance or anything.
‘What Lorgar’s fanatics have not seen is that these gods are nothing compared to the power and the majesty of the Machine-God. Already, members of our growing cult are using the grace of the Omnissiah – the true Omnissiah, not Terra’s false prophet – to harness the might of the warp. Geller fields, warp missiles, void shields, all these things you are familiar with. But their underlying principles can be turned to so much more. Through novel exploitations of these technologies we will gain mastery first over the energies of the empyrean, then over the lesser entities, until finally the very gods themselves will bend the knee and recognise the supremacy of the Machine-God"
- Heretek Ardim Protos in Titandeath by Guy Haley
AllSeeingSkink wrote: A full army book is simply not needed. Maybe they wrote one anyway, but it's far from needed.
What are we imagining a full army book is, here?
To create a new Warhammer faction, the main studio would need to do: a list of units, their stats and abilities, their visual design and the lore of the faction. None of this is stuff that they could leave to an outside license holder to just invent out of thin air and insert into the setting. And these are basically the components of an army book and what I expect GW produced and meant when they said they made an army book. I don't imagine they literally laid out a book with a specific page count, chapters, fonts, photo gallery, points costs and gak. They made a reference document of what the faction is.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2022/10/09 08:16:32
The old meta is dead and the new meta struggles to be born. Now is the time of munchkins.
StarFyre wrote: Someone mentioned lizardmen above. Are they expected to be part of the old world? I thought the old world was the human (including Northern chaos wastes, cathay, empire,)vampires, elven, and orc/ogre/goblinoid armies...
Lizardmen originated in WFB. Warhammer: The Old World is theoretically a return to that setting entire though the initial release may be more limited. Anyway the point is that the lizards and frogs were part of the setting and game back then so people will expect to see them again.
"Three months? I'm going to go crazy …and I'm taking you with me!"
— Vala Mal Doran
StarFyre wrote: Someone mentioned lizardmen above. Are they expected to be part of the old world? I thought the old world was the human (including Northern chaos wastes, cathay, empire,)vampires, elven, and orc/ogre/goblinoid armies...
Lizardmen originated in WFB. Warhammer: The Old World is theoretically a return to that setting entire though the initial release may be more limited. Anyway the point is that the lizards and frogs were part of the setting and game back then so people will expect to see them again.
Were lizardmen "discovered" by the time the Old World is set? Same with Tomb King. Were they awakened? I feel like a lot of the old factions may not make a huge appearance, simply because it doesn't fit in with the older timeline. I don't even know if Ogre Kingdoms would be on their pilgrimage yet
StarFyre wrote: Someone mentioned lizardmen above. Are they expected to be part of the old world? I thought the old world was the human (including Northern chaos wastes, cathay, empire,)vampires, elven, and orc/ogre/goblinoid armies...
Lizardmen originated in WFB. Warhammer: The Old World is theoretically a return to that setting entire though the initial release may be more limited. Anyway the point is that the lizards and frogs were part of the setting and game back then so people will expect to see them again.
Were lizardmen "discovered" by the time the Old World is set? Same with Tomb King. Were they awakened? I feel like a lot of the old factions may not make a huge appearance, simply because it doesn't fit in with the older timeline. I don't even know if Ogre Kingdoms would be on their pilgrimage yet
Yes - for nearly 1200 years - Skeggi was founded by the Norse in 888 whilst Marco Colombo makes his infamous "discovery" in 1492. There were even captured Amazons for sale in Mordheim shortly before the comet hit in 2000.
The Tomb Kings had been awake for about 3000 years by the year 2000.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/09 11:59:05
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Standing in the light, I see only darkness. 
Like why would you bother writing those rules for 8th edition when you can just incorporate them straight into Total War? I get that maybe the 
