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value is subjective, but at some point the real life issue of cost vs price surely has to factor into that?

 Trimarius wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Let's not pretend this is motivated by anything else than f ing up your rosters to make you buy new stuff.

How does taking you 30 man unit and running it as 3x10 "make you buy new stuff"? Come on guys, this is obviously just them copying a rule to limit units spreading out and it having some unfortunate consequences.
Probably unforeseen ones, as they aren't the best at this.

Totally agreed. Saying this rule change is some ploy by GW to make us buy new stuff is conspiracy-theory levels of absurd. Even the most cynical would have to admit that GW does not demonstrate awareness of the nuance to their own rules when writing them, but suddenly they are able to parse out that a coherency change will alter lists such that players will feel obligated to buy new figures?


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Rihgu wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
There would be some fallout from that though, there is some serious exploitation possible in AoS that isn't viable in 40k because of the radically different attack dynamic.


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yukishiro1 wrote:
It's just stupid that 6 32mm models cannot stand shoulder to shoulder in a line according to the new rules.

Are there any pitched battle profiles where it is possible to take a 6-man 32mm unit? Seems like it would always be 5 or 10. And regardless--you want to stagger them anyways in order to give the unit a more narrow frontage.

Kind of old to reply to now but Endrinriggers/Skywardens for Kharadron come in sets of 3 up to 12.

So they do exist! Thank you sir, this is a good piece of trivia.

You do know making people buy new stuff doesn't require intelligence? Trained monkey can do that...

At it's simplest roll dice each unit. 1-2, reduce price 20%, 3-4 keep, 5-6 up price.

What's good and bad changes instantly...

Making things balanced requires skill. Shifting imbalance is stuff even trained monkey can do. There's reason gw hires not by talent. You don't need one and less you got better you fulfill gw's goal

US prices for Dominion

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Are they... are they previewing rules printed in books that are already out, and why are you hotlinking them?

Yep. But at least the playtester did clarify that Riders of Ruin is a "normal move" so you can run afterwards or charge back into the unit with renewed buffs.

Which points to a change in the movement rules in 3.0. separating a Retreat as it's own type of move. (Currently it is a type of normal move preventing that action)

Should have forseen the latest news. Typically if decide to do something for fun non-competive before edition change new edition kicks it teeth.

40 blood reavers. Rather than build them as　4x10 and use as screen/blood tithe like everybody else let's go 2x20 and pretend they fight.

Fast forward 2 months and now it is found this　will eat half unit size increases you get to do in 2k

No bloody point waste half of unit size upgrades for cheap chaff...those 2 upgrades could be　used to get 15 chaos warriors with reroll saves for example. Lot better.

Now just need to convert unit leaders and maybe banners and horns if didn't have 1/10 each.

 Eldarsif wrote:

 lare2 wrote:
I'm sure some of you will have seen this rumour.

"Reinforcements are 4 max in a 2000 point army. Take a unit from 10 - 20 is 1 reinforcement. Battleline units can be reinforces 2 times. None battleline only 1 time."

If true, alongside the new coherency rules which are causing such consternation, it's pretty clear GW are pushing MSU.

There is also a discrepancy(or rather new design paradigm) I found interesting in the last two tomes. The new Daughters of Khaine and Soulblight tomes omit all Max Size bonuses so there is no longer an incentive to maximize units. So I agree that GW appears to want people to run smaller units, or at least not incentivize maximizing them in regards to point costs.

Which is unfortunate for many, many units. Using the DoK example, Sisters of Slaughter and Witch Aelves are already completely irrelevant in their own book even being able to rank up to 30. If you also had to choose between ranking them up or ranking something like blood Stalkers up, it's not even a contest.

In a vacuum (obviously ignoring all other changes) this would result in no one bringing Witch Aelves except for MSU screens ever again.

So, what I've gathered so far from different sources:

- Pile in: Models no longer need to pile in towards the nearest enemy model. The new wording is: When you make a pile-in with a model, it must finish the move no further from the nearest enemy unit than it was at the start of the move.

- Attack Sequence: Hit and Wound roll modifiers capped at +1/-1

- Slain models: A minor change that has a large impact on some armies: slain models are now not removed until all wounds caused to its units have been allocated and all attacks that inflicted damage on that unit have been resolved.

- Wards: Basically Feel no Pain

- Contesting Objectives: Unless rules says otherwise, Monster count as 5 models, and non-monsters with a wound characteristic of 5 or more count as 2 models when contesting objects.

- The players receive an extra command point if their general is on the table in Hero Phase. Command Points not spent at the end of the Battle Round are lost.

- Redeploy: A reactive Command Ability that is used in an enemy movement phase, and that allows moving a unit D6.

- Run and Movement phase Command Abilities: A unit that has rolled a Run roll cannot then be Commanded to "At the Double". It must be made before a roll.

- Charge Phase Command Abilities: Forward to Victory is a Command Ability that allows a charging unit to reroll the charge roll. Unleash Hell is a reactive Command Abnility that allows a unit near to the charging enemy unit to shoot the charging unit.

In a 2000 point game you get 4 reinforcement points. To make an MSU unit double its size costs 1 reinforcement point. To make it triple its size costs 2 reinforcement points total.

 Eldarsif wrote:
- Redeploy: A reactive Command Ability that is used in an enemy movement phase, and that allows moving a unit D6.

I like this - feels like the old flee if a lot more limited.

In a 2000 point game you get 4 reinforcement points. To make an MSU unit double its size costs 1 reinforcement point. To make it triple its size costs 2 reinforcement points total.

Is this for when summoning units back you can upsize them?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
- Redeploy: A reactive Command Ability that is used in an enemy movement phase, and that allows moving a unit D6.

I like this - feels like the old flee if a lot more limited.

In a 2000 point game you get 4 reinforcement points. To make an MSU unit double its size costs 1 reinforcement point. To make it triple its size costs 2 reinforcement points total.

Is this for when summoning units back you can upsize them?

No. Army building.

You have 2x60 night goblins, rest of your units have　to be minimum. Both　units took 2 reinforcement points so you spent all 4.

2x12 gluttons? Illegal.

4x6 gluttons, rest minimum sized units.

4x10 pikes, 4x20 sentinels, no problems.

4x30 blood reavers, broken, cant be allowed.


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 Eldarsif wrote:


- Slain models: A minor change that has a large impact on some armies: slain models are now not removed until all wounds caused to its units have been allocated and all attacks that inflicted damage on that unit have been resolved.

So after all units have attacked? As otherwise don't see difference.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
- Redeploy: A reactive Command Ability that is used in an enemy movement phase, and that allows moving a unit D6.

I like this - feels like the old flee if a lot more limited.

In a 2000 point game you get 4 reinforcement points. To make an MSU unit double its size costs 1 reinforcement point. To make it triple its size costs 2 reinforcement points total.

Is this for when summoning units back you can upsize them?

For building units.

So if you have a unit that is MSU 10 models it doesn't cost RP. If you want to double that unit in size it costs 1 RP to do that. If you want to add to it again it costs 2 RP. So if you have a 10 MSU squad and want to take it to 30 it costs 2 RP.


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tneva82 wrote:


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 Eldarsif wrote:


- Slain models: A minor change that has a large impact on some armies: slain models are now not removed until all wounds caused to its units have been allocated and all attacks that inflicted damage on that unit have been resolved.

So after all units have attacked? As otherwise don't see difference.

Honestly not sure. I just typed down a leak I found.

Here's the leak (in French) for army building. There's going to be a lot of minimum sized units running around if you only get 4 RP points at 2,000 pts. suddenly coherency isn't as much of a problem

Well 6 core battalions got leaked. What was policy regarding leak pics as attachment?

(annoingly requirements/optionals and abilities you gain with symbols with describtion below)

Most abilities　various command units free once　per battle. One had multi drop, one　gives 1 extra command once per battle etc

 DaveC wrote:
Here's the leak (in French) for army building. There's going to be a lot of minimum sized units running around if you only get 4 RP points at 2,000 pts. suddenly coherency isn't as much of a problem

I am really disappointed by this if it means what I think it does. I just started collecting Soulblight Gravelords and now I am severely limited on Skeletons, Zombies, and Grave Guard since all three benefit greatly from reinforced units. I feel like this helps Elite style armies a lot and really hinders everyone else.

There's english picture describing what reinforcements do floating around. Yes it does what you think　it does. 2 units of 30 skeletons, all else minimum.

When gw wants people to play certain way they make it so ridiculously obvious that it's like killing a fly with a nuke. Subtlety isn't what gw is interested at

Core Battalion rules are also out there - 6 in total

Warlord
1-2 Commanders (leader)
2-4 Sub Commanders (leader with less than 10 wounds)
1-2 Troops (anything that's not a Behemoth or Artillery)
Strategists - extra CP once per battle at start of hero phase
Magnificent - pick 1 extra enhancement

Battle Regiment
1 Commander
0-2 Sub Commanders
2-5 troops
0 -1 Behemoth /Artillery
Unified - 1 drop deployment

Grand Battery
1 Sub Commander
2-3 Artillery
Slayers - once per battle 1 unit can use all out attack or unleash hell without the command being issued or using a CP

Vanguard
1 Sub Commander
1-3 Troops
Swift - once per battle 1 unit can use at the double or forward to victory without the command being issued or using a CP


Linebreaker
1 Commander
2-3 Behemoth
Expert - once per battle 1 unit can use all out attack or all out defence without the command being issued or using a CP

Command Entourage
1 Commander
2-3 Sub commanders
Strategists/Magnificent

 DaveC wrote:
Here's the leak (in French) for army building. There's going to be a lot of minimum sized units running around if you only get 4 RP points at 2,000 pts. suddenly coherency isn't as much of a problem

Spoiler:

So you can have one understrength unit for each type of unit (i.e., Battleline, Artillery, etc)?

Been a long time since I've played and never really noted that rule before

Yes! I have been waiting for these. And wow, they seem even better than I hoped. And do armies still get a bonus CP and a bonus relic for each one? That is going to be wild.

What are the enhancements, btw?

Enhancements see 27.3 - haven't seen that yet.

Here is the Understrength and Reinforcement rule.

Well that's interesting, to say the least.

 DaveC wrote:

Spoiler:

Core Battalion rules are also out there - 6 in total

Warlord
1-2 Commanders (leader)
2-4 Sub Commanders (leader with less than 10 wounds)
1-2 Troops (anything that's not a Behemoth or Artillery)
Strategists - extra CP once per battle at start of hero phase
Magnificent - pick 1 extra enhancement

Battle Regiment
1 Commander
0-2 Sub Commanders
2-5 troops
0 -1 Behemoth /Artillery
Unified - 1 drop deployment

Grand Battery
1 Sub Commander
2-3 Artillery
Slayers - once per battle 1 unit can use all out attack or unleash hell without the command being issued or using a CP

Vanguard
1 Sub Commander
1-3 Troops
Swift - once per battle 1 unit can use at the double or forward to victory without the command being issued or using a CP


Linebreaker
1 Commander
2-3 Behemoth
Expert - once per battle 1 unit can use all out attack or all out defence without the command being issued or using a CP

Command Entourage
1 Commander
2-3 Sub commanders
Strategists/Magnificent

Just in case anyone thought they were trying to make the game better and not just add random gak to sell a new rulebook

I like that these are fairly weak and very standardized, battalions had largely become a noose around the game's neck at this point, I just wish Stormcasts had Non-Leader behemoths.


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 lord_blackfang wrote:
Just in case anyone thought they were trying to make the game better and not just add random gak to sell a new rulebook

The generic battalions are definitely gonna make the game better. The old battalion system sucked.

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 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
- Redeploy: A reactive Command Ability that is used in an enemy movement phase, and that allows moving a unit D6.

I like this - feels like the old flee if a lot more limited.

In a 2000 point game you get 4 reinforcement points. To make an MSU unit double its size costs 1 reinforcement point. To make it triple its size costs 2 reinforcement points total.

Is this for when summoning units back you can upsize them?

Nope, when you purchase models for you list. Want a blob of 30 liberators? Well you can't, you can take 2 sets of 15 and MSU from there.

The D6 redeploy in the enemy charge phase is the strongest ability we've seen. That will win more games than any other command ability in the game.

Hopefully, the new Battalions don't keep the "Deploy as one unit" rule anymore. Not liking the Reinforcement Points thing at all.

ERJAK wrote:

The D6 redeploy in the enemy charge phase is the strongest ability we've seen. That will win more games than any other command ability in the game.

I've been meaning to put my Empire army back on the table.

"So, my Swordsmen are gonna re-deploy backwards while my Handgunners shoot at the poor fools who tried to charge the Swordsmen."

ERJAK wrote:
I like that these are fairly weak and very standardized, battalions had largely become a noose around the game's neck at this point, I just wish Stormcasts had Non-Leader behemoths.

No, they really haven't. What became a millstone around the game's neck is the insistence by tourney players(which means it filters down into casual play, unfortunately, by virtue of the discussions tending to be framed in that regard) that "everything needs to be minimal drops".

And it looks like this new system is keeping that, so have fun!

'Everything needs to be minimal drops' is hardly a tourney player thing. It means turn choice, and turn choice means the difference between getting the double or getting double'd on. Don't blame tourney players for random initiative existing.

@Reinforcement points. Well that's dumb, and it sucks hardcore for matched play-ers and with a wild degree of inconsistency between armies. Like one of those head-scratchers that leaves me wondering 'were they just drunk or something?' because it does not seem to fill any purpose. Also pretty funny coming from the company that was so excited to introduce the max unit discount a few years back.

@Core battalions. Look pretty cool, and not nearly as exploitable as I feared. I will reserve judgement until we have that full list of enhancements but so far looking like a pretty big step up.

 Platuan4th wrote:

Hopefully, the new Battalions don't keep the "Deploy as one unit" rule anymore. Not liking the Reinforcement Points thing at all.

The reinforcement point thing sounds like they've taken a simple system and replaced it with a slightly similar system that's basically the same but sounds more convoluted. Though that said I'm only picking up dreg ends from things as I'll likely only really process and read through all the rules once I've got the book in hand rather htan random pages quotes and such