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 whembly wrote:

 Laughing Man wrote:

See, the problem is that hydroxychloroquine is an immunosuppressant. The idea was that it could help treat the cytokine storms that kill a lot of COVID patients. Trials showed that not only did it NOT do that, it increased the rate of death by about 10%, due to its severe cardiac side effects. Used as a prophylaxis it's likely to be even LESS effective, thanks to the aforementioned side effect (also blindness) and its immunosuppressant nature.

The studies/trials are still incomplete for hydroxychloroquine.

Just as Remdesivir is still incomplete...while its on Phase 3 of their trials, this med is still bit of a "hit or miss" while showing knarly side-effects (primarily adverse renal functions).

Except they aren't incomplete. Quite a few of them have finished, or been halted because of patient deaths due to side effects, and found zero benefit.

What a time to be alive.

Everybody laughed at the people eating Tide Pods, turns out they were just ahead of their time.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Everybody laughed at the people eating Tide Pods, turns out they were just ahead of their time.

 Laughing Man wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Laughing Man wrote:

See, the problem is that hydroxychloroquine is an immunosuppressant. The idea was that it could help treat the cytokine storms that kill a lot of COVID patients. Trials showed that not only did it NOT do that, it increased the rate of death by about 10%, due to its severe cardiac side effects. Used as a prophylaxis it's likely to be even LESS effective, thanks to the aforementioned side effect (also blindness) and its immunosuppressant nature.

The studies/trials are still incomplete for hydroxychloroquine.

Just as Remdesivir is still incomplete...while its on Phase 3 of their trials, this med is still bit of a "hit or miss" while showing knarly side-effects (primarily adverse renal functions).

Except they aren't incomplete. Quite a few of them have finished, or been halted because of patient deaths due to side effects, and found zero benefit.

True...and quite a few trials are still ongoing too.

Not to mention other anti-HIV medications as well.

According to the industry bulletin I get, there are 481 drugs in development (mix of novel and repurposed drugs) and 1,158 clinical trials for COVID-19.

As I think I've said, the media is HORRIBLE when it comes to reporting this stuff. They get fixated on this or that compound -- maybe it's a good story, or maybe it's been pushed hard by a PR department. But science doesn't care how good of a story something is, or that we're hoping really hard. Clinical development is a grind with no guarantees. Believe it's a 90-something percent failure rate for drugs that reach human trials.

And the fastest vaccine development ever -- mumps -- took 4 years. *IF* a vaccine is achievable, there's reason to think it won't need to be that long. But IMO, the media should be properly informing the public about the realities of our situation, instead of glomming onto the timeframe blurted by a chief executive who's now blathering about light and disinfectants.

I can't get how people can be this stupid. I heard about people poisoning themselves by washing their vegetables with bleach or burning their pets by..washing them with bleach, too, and that's already incredibly DUMB. I mean, I don't even live on my own in my own house, I'm not the most autonomous person in the world. But I damn know this is dangerous.
And now this ..
(Btw, as usual I went to the internet to hear and read what exactly happened...and I got the feeling He didn't say to inject disinfectant but to do something similarly effective, for example by a cleaning or an injection. Am I right ? I'm no native speaker)

 godardc wrote:
I can't get how people can be this stupid. I heard about people poisoning themselves by washing their vegetables with bleach or burning their pets by..washing them with bleach, too, and that's already incredibly DUMB. I mean, I don't even live on my own in my own house, I'm not the most autonomous person in the world. But I damn know this is dangerous.
And now this ..
(Btw, as usual I went to the internet to hear and read what exactly happened...and I got the feeling He didn't say to inject disinfectant but to do something similarly effective, for example by a cleaning or an injection. Am I right ? I'm no native speaker)

Nope, he said to inject disinfectant. We know this because today he walked it back by saying he was being sarcastic.

My main Hope here, outside of the health and safety of my fellow humans?

That the sheer complexity of this is the turning point against all current forms of populist politics.

Because right now, the trite soundbites so beloved of late are being shown to be hollow.

Doesn’t matter which wing they’re coming from. This is a horrifically complex issue, which requires an equally complex solution.

You can’t call it names. You can’t blame it on them.

It simply is. And it’s killing people. This is a wake up slap we’ve possibly needed as a society. Would that nobody had to die for us to get to this point, but sadly it seems we just don’t bloody learn until that point.

This has been a bipartisan post by Mad Doc Grotsnik.

 Laughing Man wrote:

 godardc wrote:
I can't get how people can be this stupid. I heard about people poisoning themselves by washing their vegetables with bleach or burning their pets by..washing them with bleach, too, and that's already incredibly DUMB. I mean, I don't even live on my own in my own house, I'm not the most autonomous person in the world. But I damn know this is dangerous.
And now this ..
(Btw, as usual I went to the internet to hear and read what exactly happened...and I got the feeling He didn't say to inject disinfectant but to do something similarly effective, for example by a cleaning or an injection. Am I right ? I'm no native speaker)

Nope, he said to inject disinfectant. We know this because today he walked it back by saying he was being sarcastic.

We were never at war with Eurasia, we were always at war with Eastasia right?

Does anyone know of a good map of which states and counties in the US have what %'s of their population tested?

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Also, I don't know where people have been looking, but as a Swede I've seen an absolute avalanche of people, both domestic and foreign, telling us how stupid we are and how we're gonna have hundreds of thousands of deaths. There's a really nasty undercurrent of schadenfreude, with people wanting us to have a large amount of deaths so they can caress their own egoes and tell everyone how clever they were.

I find comparisons between Sweden and Denmark interesting, as we are similar countries.

Denmark has enacted social distancing and shut down schools and non-essential businesses and, as far as I have understood, Sweden has not.

Immediate difference?

Sweden, 198 deaths per million population.
Denmark, 67 deaths per million population.

Don't stop reading!

I am perfectly aware that some differences in reporting methodology might exist.

This is of course only a preliminary comparison, as the Corona virus hasn't finished it's 2019/20 World Tour ("Coming to a town near you!").

It might very well turn out, that in the long run, Sweden will be "better off", so to speak, be developing herd immunity faster and more comprehensively.

As Denmark is about to open things back up (slowly and in controlled stages), we might see a reversal of the trend.
Sweden might have gotten the hard hits out of the way early, while Denmark might linger longer.
It will be interesting to see, from an epidemiological stand point.

I would very much hold back any condemnation/praise, until we have seen the actual result.

Considering that we are looking at 3-4 if not more years for a viable and safe vaccine; whilst likely nearly as many years to get testing to a point where you could potentially consider isolation and containment; I suspect herd immunity is the game plan in many nations.


The gamble is when you impose lockdowns. Imposing them too early is good in a health aspect, but it means even more potential further lockdowns and a much longer period to achieve herd immunity. This could potentially mean increased damage to the economy and reduced potential recovery.
In the extreme there's also the chance that increased lockdown/unlock periods could result in reduced effectiveness of latter lockdowns as more of the population becomes complacent/fed up with the lockdowns.

Of course the other side of the coin is if you impose them too late (or not at all) and you lose control of the situation and the health services become overloaded and crippled. Resulting in many many more deaths from both corona related sickness and general sickness/injury within the population. In theory you reach herd immunity much faster, but at a much greater potential cost of human lives. Perhaps also a greater chance of reduced effective recovery of survivors as well; leaving you with a damaged population of significant proportion .



The battleground for governments is the line between those two extremes and attempting to avoid either one (though one would hope with a bias toward the first rather than the latter).

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
My main Hope here, outside of the health and safety of my fellow humans?

That the sheer complexity of this is the turning point against all current forms of populist politics.

Because right now, the trite soundbites so beloved of late are being shown to be hollow.

Doesn’t matter which wing they’re coming from. This is a horrifically complex issue, which requires an equally complex solution.

You can’t call it names. You can’t blame it on them.

It simply is. And it’s killing people. This is a wake up slap we’ve possibly needed as a society. Would that nobody had to die for us to get to this point, but sadly it seems we just don’t bloody learn until that point.

This has been a bipartisan post by Mad Doc Grotsnik.

Curiosly, I would bet on the opposite: the global failure of the West and the social democracies throughout the whole world will "prove" globalism and traditional parties are out of touch for them.
I mean, we'll see haha

Back on topic, I'm super interested by your Danemark / Norway comparison, I hope I won't forget to check it back in a few weeks /months

Check out the spike.

While the article argues a different point, the increase of CoVid deaths emphasizes the articles you've probably read about hospitals overwhelmed by the virus. It's the virus' *additional* demand to the *total* existing need for hospital beds and staff that's the problem. If, suddenly, everyone with heart disease and cancer suddenly stopped having heart disease and cancer (where have the heart disease and cancer pixies been since 2017?), hospitals would be better able to accommodate the epidemic.The somewhat good news is that the slope is decreasing, but we still need a total demand that hospitals and healthcare workers can handle.

https://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/not-like-the-flu-not-like-car-crashes-not-like

NYS is bit of a bellweather, they're now experiencing downward trends, such as hospitalization (although you can argue it's still on the "plateau" ):

Despite educated medical experts saying that it is useless against covid, some states are stocking up on the malaria drug trump touted.

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/us-states-build-stockpiles-malaria-drug-touted-trump-70334274

 Matt Swain wrote:
Despite educated medical experts saying that it is useless against covid, some states are stocking up on the malaria drug trump touted.

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/us-states-build-stockpiles-malaria-drug-touted-trump-70334274

I'm not surprised. Their President stated that X was potentially useful as a drug to combat the disease. Even if it only had potential it was singled out from hundreds/thousands of other potential drugs on the market. So they are going to follow and react to that fast adn start trying to get stock before other states. It also seems that each State is operating more on its own (or at least from the outside that's the impression); so they likely setup orders as fast as they could to get ahead of other states. Those systems might be swift to start but slow to stop - esp as information on the drugs effectiveness likely doesn't get as much publicity and exposure so unless they go looking for it they might find that they miss the boat in time to stop their stockpile schemes.


Whilst the bleach situation touted earlier might not result in any states actually thinking its a cure, I can see it causing a bit surge in the purchasing of bleach and the bleaching of houses/homes/workplaces/shoppingtrollies. Indeed its quite encouraging to hear that general disinfectants and bleaches are so effective as it does make surface wiping and cleaning practical solutions to keeping workplaces and any public areas still in operation as clean as practical to help reduce potential spread.

 Easy E wrote:
Does anyone know of a good map of which states and counties in the US have what %'s of their population tested?

This article from Wednesday in Newsweek has some info.

https://www.newsweek.com/only-1-percent-us-population-has-been-tested-coronavirus-1499523

At least 4,163,464 people in the U.S. have been tested, as of Wednesday. This amounts to around 1.2 percent of the country's population of nearly 332,639,000.

New York, the worst-hit state, has tested around three percent of its more than 19.5 million residents, with nearly 650,000 tested as of Wednesday.

Less than one percent—nearly 0.7 percent—of the population of California (nearly 39.5 million), the country's most populous state, has been tested.

Florida (which has a population of nearly 21.4 million) and Pennsylvania (nearly 12.8 million), the third- and fifth-most populous states, respectively, have each tested only around 1.3 percent of their residents.

Texas, the second-most populous state (with a population of 28.9 million), has also only tested nearly 0.7 percent, as of Wednesday.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
My main Hope here, outside of the health and safety of my fellow humans?

That the sheer complexity of this is the turning point against all current forms of populist politics.

Because right now, the trite soundbites so beloved of late are being shown to be hollow.

Doesn’t matter which wing they’re coming from. This is a horrifically complex issue, which requires an equally complex solution.

You can’t call it names. You can’t blame it on them.

It simply is. And it’s killing people. This is a wake up slap we’ve possibly needed as a society. Would that nobody had to die for us to get to this point, but sadly it seems we just don’t bloody learn until that point.

This has been a bipartisan post by Mad Doc Grotsnik.

You can’t fix an issue where one side is saving lives and one side is telling you to drink bleach by starting with the premise that “both sides are the same”.

 whembly wrote:
NYS is bit of a bellweather, they're now experiencing downward trends, such as hospitalization (although you can argue it's still on the "plateau" ):

New York City isn't much of a bellwether. There aren't many other cities that come close to the population density and transportation model, and that's globally. Other big cities in the US, notably SF and LA aren't seeing nearly the same kind of pattern.
Neither Philadelphia or Miami are following the same patterns that New York did, even though their counties are comparable in size to the counties in and around NYC

(Yeah, counties is an odd way to model this, but that's how the article I found did it, because reasons)
https://www.inquirer.com/health/coronavirus/philadelphia-compare-cities-coronavirus-new-york-new-orleans-detroit-20200414.html

Looking at the table in the article, NYC and its surrounding counties are its own unique bubble. Its the top 20 counties in the US in terms of cases (from April 14th). Cook county, Illinois (Chicago) and Wayne county MI (Detroit) are the only other ones that make the top 10. The other 8 counties make up the New York City metropolitan area.

Los Angeles county, with 10 million people, doesn't even make the top 10. Part of that, I suspect, is the horrible-to-nonexistent public transportation. A blessing for once.

---
And of course for the majority of the country (non-urban), the NYC model doesn't apply at all.

 Ouze wrote:
What a time to be alive.

But did they say anything about injecting them directly into the blood stream? No?

Well, it must be okay then

Oxfordshire, where I live, has 1,330 cases out of a population of about 660,000.

It's a very rural county, and the two largest employers went into WFH mode before uk.gov made the decision.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That said, the UK testing rate is still piss-poor, so there could be lots of unknown cases.

 Overread wrote:
It's a bit early to say but the UK is showing some hope
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/

There's a small potential drop in daily cases increase and a slight drop in the death rate. Though right now that seems to be just part of the smoothing of the curve process so still a bit early to see a drop off.

Oddly the recovered stats, which were showing there at one time, aren't now showing which is a bit of a pain since ideally we should be starting to see a rise in that value (one would expect)

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/

This shows 4 days of increasing daily new case rate and deaths again jumped up and past 4 have been higher death counts than 2 days before that. Daily variance.

Another 500 deaths and it has exceeded goverment's official "we did well" limit. Doubtful they still admit having handled it badly. And this is with the more benign numbers that don't show nearly all. Even the more cautious estimates of true death count puts it somewhere about 40% higher than official numbers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gorgon wrote:

And the fastest vaccine development ever -- mumps -- took 4 years. *IF* a vaccine is achievable, there's reason to think it won't need to be that long. But IMO, the media should be properly informing the public about the realities of our situation, instead of glomming onto the timeframe blurted by a chief executive who's now blathering about light and disinfectants.

At least here media is telling consistently 1-2 years is earliest you can expect vaccine and even that would be record breaking fast development.

 LordofHats wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
What a time to be alive.

But did they say anything about injecting them directly into the blood stream? No?

Well, it must be okay then

They did, actually.

"As a global leader in health and hygiene products, we must be clear that under no circumstance should our disinfectant products be administered into the human body (through injection, ingestion or any other route)," the company said in a statement.

The part that's really sad and disturbing is this bit:

On Monday, the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said calls about poisonings with cleaners and disinfectants had increased more than 20% in the first three months of 2020 -- as coronavirus cleaning increased -- than from the same period a year earlier. Among cleaners, bleaches accounted for the largest percentage increase in calls from 2019 to 2020.

This is already something that happens, and was already on the rise this year.

So he basically threw gasoline on a fire. Lovely.

Voss wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
What a time to be alive.

But did they say anything about injecting them directly into the blood stream? No?

Well, it must be okay then

They did, actually.

"As a global leader in health and hygiene products, we must be clear that under no circumstance should our disinfectant products be administered into the human body (through injection, ingestion or any other route)," the company said in a statement.

The part that's really sad and disturbing is this bit:

On Monday, the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said calls about poisonings with cleaners and disinfectants had increased more than 20% in the first three months of 2020 -- as coronavirus cleaning increased -- than from the same period a year earlier. Among cleaners, bleaches accounted for the largest percentage increase in calls from 2019 to 2020.

This is already something that happens, and was already on the rise this year.

You had me feeling better in the first half XD

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Everybody laughed at the people eating Tide Pods, turns out they were just ahead of their time.

This comes to mind as being overblown.

Oh, so that's where it came from.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/24/revealed-leader-group-peddling-bleach-cure-lobbied-trump-coronavirus

Still don't drink bleach, folks...

Crispy78 wrote:
Oh, so that's where it came from.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/24/revealed-leader-group-peddling-bleach-cure-lobbied-trump-coronavirus

Still don't drink bleach, folks...

Feths Sale what is wrong with our species.....

21st century and still behaving worse then chimps......