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https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/13/politics/donald-trump-florida-coronavirus-reopening/index.html

I love the language in this article. It's professional, but doesn't miss a chance to use its diction to express its profound disappointment in how the crisis has been handled.

I bought myself a box of 20 German made surgical masks because I expect the government to make them compulsory very soon.

I see that tattoo parlours are now allowed to open for business, which is good news for queen_anne's_revenge.

I'm unclear as to whether piercing is allowed, though.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I see that tattoo parlours are now allowed to open for business ....
I'm unclear as to whether piercing is allowed, though.

Once they're open, they're open.
Don't piercings usually get done in a back room? No-one will know.

 Skinnereal wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I see that tattoo parlours are now allowed to open for business ....
I'm unclear as to whether piercing is allowed, though.

Once they're open, they're open.
Don't piercings usually get done in a back room? No-one will know.

What in the world kind of back-alley piercing operations have you been getting? At least here in California, body-art is a very tightly regulated industry with strict sanitation protocols. That being said, opening them might not be the giant leap you think - They are already required to santize thier equipment between clients and masks were already a best practice even if they weren't required before the pandemic. Bigger concerns are industries that weren't health regulated to that level before. Hair Dressers, for example, didn't have such extensive santization requirements and aren't really equipped to do it now in most cases since a lot of equipment sanization was up to the individual.

Considering that headlice is about the worst thing most hairdressers would have to worry about and you can spot eggs/lice when working; chances are they didn't really worry vastly much about sanitising tools between clients. A quick dust off and the cutters are ready for the next person .

So yes masks, screens and such are all going to be new things for them as might be other aspects like talking less; fewer customers inside; faster work turn around;

 ChargerIIC wrote:

 Skinnereal wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I see that tattoo parlours are now allowed to open for business ....
I'm unclear as to whether piercing is allowed, though.

Once they're open, they're open.
Don't piercings usually get done in a back room? No-one will know.

What in the world kind of back-alley piercing operations have you been getting? At least here in California, body-art is a very tightly regulated industry with strict sanitation protocols. That being said, opening them might not be the giant leap you think - They are already required to santize thier equipment between clients and masks were already a best practice even if they weren't required before the pandemic. Bigger concerns are industries that weren't health regulated to that level before. Hair Dressers, for example, didn't have such extensive santization requirements and aren't really equipped to do it now in most cases since a lot of equipment sanization was up to the individual.

Yeah, Piercings happen in the mall kiosks here. They are not exactly behind closed doors anymore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Overread wrote:
Considering that headlice is about the worst thing most hairdressers would have to worry about and you can spot eggs/lice when working; chances are they didn't really worry vastly much about sanitising tools between clients. A quick dust off and the cutters are ready for the next person .

So yes masks, screens and such are all going to be new things for them as might be other aspects like talking less; fewer customers inside; faster work turn around;

To me personally i think that they should only open themselves up for basic haircuts. The reason being that it would reduce the time spent around those that are there and because its a basic service that is needed.
We need to rethink what is needed, getting nails and hair all dolled up isnt needed right now and offers an uneedched chance for infects.

 ced1106 wrote:

I've found a good number of psychological articles about why some people react the way they do to the virus. In a way, the virus is successful because it happens to take advantage of the psychological weaknesses of humans. I should stress that this is not the only view of the psychology behind the virus, so I highly suggest further reading. I've noticed that on pretty every forum about the virus, posters, including myself, have fallen for these psychological traps when it comes to accessing the risk of the virus. (The article, frex, doesn't mention the asymptomatic period of the virus, which I would say also contributed to its spread. I've also found articles that explain why some people react strongly against the virus, because of a phenomenon when you constantly read and therefore experience negative events.)

"One reason for this subconscious Pollyannaism is that we don’t use the deliberative part of our brain very much. As the psychologist Daniel Kahneman wrote in Thinking, Fast and Slow, our brain has two modes: A fast, intuitive method that’s driven by feelings, and a more analytic (and evolutionarily more recent) way of thinking that’s driven by data. The intuitive process tends to dominate, says Paul Slovic, a psychology professor at the University of Oregon. “We don’t go around calculating things in a scientific way; we just kind of are guided by our feelings, which are very much influenced by our experiences,” he told me.

This knee-jerk part of our brains mostly takes only past events into consideration, making us “prisoners of our experience,” as Slovic put it. One 1962 study of people living on a flood plain found they were unable to conceive of floods bigger than the largest flood they had ever witnessed. It’s easy to infer that Americans similarly couldn’t fathom a disease worse than other, less deadly outbreaks the U.S. has recently faced, such as Zika and Ebola. Despite our brushes with past plagues, Americans might have struggled to imagine one that would cause more than regional disruption and a couple of weeks’ headlines.

This is really interesting.

What is surprising for me is how an understanding of this hasn't been used by governments to help reinforce messaging around the harmful nature of the virus, especially when they do around other areas: in the UK at least we used to have many adverts of horrible road accident (someone lying dead in a car), someone speaking through a voice box because part of their throat had been removed due to cancer (smoking warning). In the past, we know photos from the Vietnam war (of the naked crying child and the body bags of returning service men with hands and feet exposed) they think now were instrumental in helping to sway anti-war feelings. As you say, they all had a large impact on the emotional and relatable areas of our psychology.

There has been a distinct lack of utilisation of this, and in fact far less thought given to it than on 'get ready for Brexit', which really shows where priorities lie. Why not a picture of people in rows in ICU hooked up to ventilators? A crying family with a loved one lying next to them in bed? Why not even a video of someone rasping their last breath? These things are all horrible to envisage, yet they would be effective measures in driving to reinforce how important it is to socially distance, wear a mask etc.

Billions is spent on marketing things and yet so little thought seems to have been given to help reinforce messages that could actually help save lives.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I bought myself a box of 20 German made surgical masks because I expect the government to make them compulsory very soon.

I see that tattoo parlours are now allowed to open for business, which is good news for queen_anne's_revenge.

I'm unclear as to whether piercing is allowed, though.

The wife has been making masks for both us and the two boys. We have been of the mind set that it won’t be long until masks are compulsory too, plus the lads were able to pick the fabric they wanted for their masks in the hope that getting them to wear them would be easier .

If I'm going to have to wear a mask I would like it to be effective and snazzy.

You knew CoVid had an asymptomatic period before symptom showed, but yet another "small study" says someone can still be infectious *after* symptoms subside. Great.

Coronavirus Hangs Around After Symptoms Subside
"Even after people with mild cases of COVID-19 feel better, new research shows that half still have the virus for up to eight days after symptoms are gone."
https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200403/coronavirus-hangs-around-after-symptoms-subside

*****

The media and public discussion centering around infections and death rates ignores the trauma of recovery and long-term symptoms. If you amputate your leg because of the virus, you're ok, right?

“My biggest concern is that there is little visibility into the reality of what recovery truly looks like, as recovery from a medical perspective simply means that the patient ‘did not die’ and simply does not capture the lingering and painful symptoms that the Covid-19 recovery road truly entails for some or many,” Nichols said, adding that some of her most alarming symptoms occurred in her third and fifth weeks of being unwell.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/01/lingering-and-painful-long-and-unclear-road-to-coronavirus-recovery-long-lasting-symptoms

""I've been short of breath for two months, with a firey feeling in my lungs,"
https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/15-scary-after-effects-of-coronavirus-everyone-should-know/ss-BB14GWUT#image=9

"Another physician and public health expert, Dr. Esther Choo, says she has seen Covid-19 cases where the infection seems to last a long time. But she also points out that those who have a virus like Covid-19 are susceptible to secondary infections, which could be bacterial. So she advises patients who are still feeling sick after weeks to see a doctor. ... Choo also cautions that we don’t know enough yet about Covid-19 to draw any quick conclusions.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/01/coronavirus-patients-describe-symptoms-that-last-a-month-or-more.html

"“This is really disturbing… but entirely consistent with what I’m seeing in patients hospitalised with Covid-19 who recover,” said Dr Christian Ramers, an infectious disease expert and head of the Population Health Centers of San Diego. “It is rare to find one who bounces back within a few weeks.”
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/nine-10-people-have-persistent-symptoms-months-recovering-severe/

*****

Finally, one of the indicators of CoVid in seriously ill patients is low oxygen. Except that the body doesn't show symptoms of low oxygen levels, only high carbon dioxide ones. You can get a good one for under $50 and it's a non-invasive procedure that you can use with your household family members. Cheaper than Kickstarter.

"And so, what I'm saying to you is if you're having symptoms of viral illness, if you're known to have COVID, you should be checking your oxygen. … If you don't have an oximeter, increased breathing may be a sign of that, but also just feeling worse."
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-pulse-oximeter-device-oxygen-levels/

"Although this sudden drop in the amount of oxygen in your bloodstream can indicate a coronavirus infection, the American Lung Association says this symptom usually doesn't manifest until an infected person has already become seriously ill. Fever, dry cough, muscle aches, and fatigue are much more common early indicators of COVID-19."
https://www.aol.com/everyone-buying-pulse-oximeters-don-110100279.html

****

EDIT: I'll pick Hanlon's Razor over conspiracy theory any day. Because they're more incompetent people doing dumb things than cunning cabals with unlimited resources.

"The genetic makeup or “genome” of SARS-CoV-2 has been sequenced and publicly shared thousands of times by scientists all over the world. If the virus had been genetically engineered in a lab there would be signs of manipulation in the genome data. This would include evidence of an existing viral sequence as the backbone for the new virus, and obvious, targeted inserted (or deleted) genetic elements. But no such evidence exists. It is very unlikely that any techniques used to genetically engineer the virus would not leave a genetic signature, like specific identifiable pieces of DNA code. ...

There is evidence that early cases of COVID-19 occurred outside of Wuhan in China and had no clear link to the city’s wet market where the pandemic is thought to have begun. But that isn’t evidence of a conspiracy. It could simply be that infected people accidentally brought the virus into the city and then the wet market, where the enclosed, busy conditions increased the chances of the disease spreading rapidly. This includes e possibility of one of the scientists involved in bat coronavirus research in Wuhan unknowingly becoming infected and bringing the virus back from where their subject bats lived. This would still be considered natural infection, not a laboratory leak."

https://theconversation.com/heres-how-scientists-know-the-coronavirus-came-from-bats-and-wasnt-made-in-a-lab-141850


And, remember, the equipment in these labs were Made in China. Speculation time.

"IMAGES of broken seals on the doors of fridges housing deadly pathogens have emerged from a high-security Chinese laboratory close to the epi-centre of the coronavirus outbreak in Wuhan, adding to speculation the virus may have leaked from a research facility.

But despite its reputation for high security, a pre-print scientific study written by a group of Chinese scientists from the South China University of Technology sensationally claimed that Covid 19 spread from the high-security science laboratory in Wuhan and not a "wet market" in the city. .. The research concluded that this laboratory hosted animals for research purposes, one of which was specialised in pathogens collection and identification.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1271261/coronavirus-lab-leak-shock-images-wuhan-epicentre-wet-market-bio-lab-biowarfare-pandemic

 Pacific wrote:

What is surprising for me is how an understanding of this hasn't been used by governments to help reinforce messaging around the harmful nature of the virus

IMO its because a lot of the policy makers and there advisors have fallen victim to these exact biases .

 Kilkrazy wrote:
If I'm going to have to wear a mask I would like it to be effective and snazzy.

I wouldn't worry about this too much as you need to change the mask regularly to be effective (as in every 30 minutes or so). Hence spending lots of money on them looking snazzy is pointless. Most face coverings are fairly pointless other than psychological boost it gives to people to make people feel safer. It is much more effective to simply stay away from groups of people, avoid shops and public transport etc.

To be completely effective you need to change the item (safely) after short term use. For example if you take the public transport to a shop you want to:-

1) Buy medical grade masks (noting even some of the ones for the NHS have been shown to be ineffective). The supply of effective masks is very difficult at the moment so likely impossible for the public (in the UK at least).
2) Before leaving home put on the mask and gloves. Fit them properly (which in itself is a challenge and usually needs someone to help)
3) Travel by public transport on exiting the transport take off gloves and dispose, wash hands/sanitise thoroughly and put on new gloves. Now take off mask and dispose of. Remove gloves, dispose of them, wash hands and face thoroughly put on new gloves and then mask.
4) Go into the shop.
5) On leaving the shop repeat the process in 3)
6) Go on public transport
7) On exiting public transport repeat 3) again
8) Enter home

For those that do 3D printing with resin you've probably got the above procedure perfected.

Obviously not many people actually do this. For every step not followed there is a higher risk of cross contamination. For example messing around with one mask just puts your hands in contact with potentially a contaminated surface which you then touch on something and so forth. A mask that has been worn for many hours is likely heavily contaminated and saturated (realistically warm/moist environments are a haven for both viruses and bacteria) so after a while sneezing just carries particles from the mask to the environment anyway. Pulling up or down a mask to speak is pointless (not only does it reduce the effectiveness but you are also breathing in directly from the outside of the mask that may be a contaminated surfaces. And these are for medical grade masks....

In the UK they recommend face coverings which are basically just as effective as wearing a pair of underpants over your head and going "whubble". There is very little evidence that these are beneficial and there is a large question mark over whether masks in the wider community, when undertaking populace studies, actually make any benefit (or is a weak positive benefit). [This is different to medical grade masks used and fit correctly in medical environments where there is a significant positive benefit]. The problem comes that early in the pandemic there was some, arguably, rushing to get a name, research from the US that showed that moisture particles through a face covering dropped by 90% directly in front of the sneezer. However, later studies that looked at in more detail from Edinburgh showed that for face coverings although the direct impact of someone in front of you was lessened, several jets were observed coming over the top and side of the head (as they aren't properly sealed) - a comparison would be putting your thumb over a hose. They concluded that ultimately wearing face coverings made little difference in droplets emitted, other than direction and hence was more of a psychological benefit. However, the former study was picked up much more aggressively by the media than the latter. And I'm not going to get started on why plastic face shields are even worse unless you know someone that likes to sneeze over someone anyway.

In addition many scientists have recently written to the WHO to state that they believe the evidence is there to show COVID19 is an airborne virus (not just one spread by droplets of moisture). If that is the case then face coverings and plastic shields are even worse in this situation as they have been promoted to stop moisture. Anecdotally it could be suggested that masks seem to have been more effective in Asian countries and this could be hypothesised because the masks they tend to wear were used initially to reduce breathing in air pollution. These particles are much finer and can travel through face coverings and hence they already were wearing appropriate masks and had them to hand from the start....

So ultimately in crowded spaces do not rely on face coverings (despite promotion by several governments) they will not keep you safe from either catching or spreading the virus - they are being promoted to give you confidence to work/spend again. The safest thing to do is stay away from large population groups (shops, pubs etc) and keep as isolated as is possible and limit the circle of contacts. The latter approach is the only thing that for a wider populace group has been shown to be effective.

I have a feeling pants on head would earn you a fair bit distancing even in normal times

Not sure Im liking the uptick in people out and about but seems the local druids have got some fresh incomer blood and conjured up some gakky weather so fingers crossed

To be fair as someone with a beard, any mask is doubly pointless on me as they just don’t make a seal.
I did wrap my desert shemagh around my face to go to the shops but damn that wasn’t so nice after a while.
Still we’ve got masks made and ready so at least if we do need them to go in to a shop we are good to go.

 Whirlwind wrote:
For those that do 3D printing with resin you've probably got the above procedure perfected.

This is why I wear gloves when I go food shopping, which I do as little as possible - 3D printing has trained me to not touch my face or skin with gloves on, and to dispose of them after a single use.

Contactless pickup is now pretty easy around here though, so not as much of the above as before.

Is there a measurable difference between gloves in store and then dispose and washing hands upon entering and leaving a store?

One issue with gloves is incorrect handling when removing can put contamination on your hands; whilst with repeat washing that could cause skin damage/irritation if you're doing it a LOT.


If you're wearing a mask then in theory gloves nor fingers should be contacting your mouth; meanwhile any product you pick up is exposed to the same risk either way (the gloves would only prevent risk from yourself so any infection present within a store is still going to be transmitted to the products if you pick it up on hands or gloves).

 xKillGorex wrote:
To be fair as someone with a beard, any mask is doubly pointless on me as they just don’t make a seal.
I did wrap my desert shemagh around my face to go to the shops but damn that wasn’t so nice after a while.
Still we’ve got masks made and ready so at least if we do need them to go in to a shop we are good to go.

The objective isn't so much to form a seal as you would in a medical situation with high grade PPE, you're not trying to isolate your respiratory system, just baffle any infectious gak that you might unknowingly be exhaling, hence a piece of t-shirt folded over or any other number of Heath Robinson DIY projects are considered adequate.

I don't believe the impact is considered significant, but I guess the impact is considered sufficiently positive to be worth implementing.

Correlation is not causation, but when various countries mandated masks, infection rates dropped.

Austria Has 90% Drop in Coronavirus Cases After Requiring People to Wear Face Masks (April)

"This isn't the case in the Czech Republic and Slovakia. As two of the first countries to make masks compulsory in Europe, they now enjoy a small infection rate per capita. Daily Mail said, "63 Czechs per 100,000 has been infected and less than two per 100,000 have died from the virus." It's lower in Slovakia, "21 per 100,000 people have caught it and just 0.2 per 100,000 have succumbed to the illness." In contrast, 182 out of 100,000 British have been infected, while 25 per 100,000 have died because of COVID-19. ... Meanwhile, Asian countries that enforced wearing face masks reported fewer cases. Hong Kong and Singapore has less than 1,000, while Japan has almost 3,000. South Korea has almost 10,000 cases, but the spread nearly plateaued at the 15th day until the 40th. Although China ranked fourth place at almost 100,000, the country also plateaued on the 20th day because they wore face masks."

Czech Republic used DIY cloth masks. So, imo, all this fine-tuning discussion of masks doesn't inviolate its use, even if it's a cloth mask, etc.. (April)
" A recent movement there led to the very widespread use of homemade cloth masks, and that country also has a very mild curve of new COVID-19 infections."
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-04-case-diy-masks-coronavirus.html

Czech Republic lifts face mask rule as coronavirus restrictions ease (May)
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/25/czech-republic-face-mask-coronavirus-restrictions-pubs-restaurants-hotels

Czech Republic reports highest daily increase in COVID-19 cases in over two months (June)
https://www.euronews.com/2020/06/27/czech-republic-reports-highest-daily-increase-in-covid-19-cases-in-over-two-months

Note that when the mask restriction was lifted, other lockdown restrictions were lifted as well. IMO, While masks contribute to the decrease in CoVid infections, I'll agree that other precautions should be observed as well, if not moreso.

I think any sane approach has to take multiple angles. Masks (esp the general population quality and wearing practice) are but one tool of many in the fight.

Each tool you add increases the chances of reducing the spread of the virus.
I think that is one key aspect governments really need to hammer home in people. It's not enough to just socially distance; or just wear a mask. You've got to do as much of it as you safely and practically can. The more you do the better and the better you do each step the better as well.

Reducing trips out; reducing who you come into contact with; proper hand washing; avoiding the face; wearing masks; taking a cough and high temperature seriously; Every step you take helps reduce the spread.

Afaik the technology we use for genetic engineering would not work on viruses anyways since it relies on cellular mechanisms that viruses do not have. Could be wrong though, it has been a while since I updated myself.

My area is starting to go through an outbreak. Linked to a young woman who was diagnosed with it, then decided to go out to a house party anyways. Two counties are currently getting hit right now. We are a small rural area.

Because of this, the local schools had to announce new guidelines for fall sports and such. The locals are foaming at the mouth over it. Apparently they are calling for the teachers to be fired over it. Even though it is the state that is making the rules here. You cannot fight this kind of stupid.

 Overread wrote:
Is there a measurable difference between gloves in store and then dispose and washing hands upon entering and leaving a store?

One issue with gloves is incorrect handling when removing can put contamination on your hands; whilst with repeat washing that could cause skin damage/irritation if you're doing it a LOT.


If you're wearing a mask then in theory gloves nor fingers should be contacting your mouth; meanwhile any product you pick up is exposed to the same risk either way (the gloves would only prevent risk from yourself so any infection present within a store is still going to be transmitted to the products if you pick it up on hands or gloves).

If you are washing before and after shopping, being careful not to touch your face, with every store its not going to be enough to cause skin irritation. Unless you are visiting an excessive number of stores and/or using bleach to wash your hands. The typical person going shopping might go to 3 stores at most on a trip. That's 4 times you'd wash your hands. Soap and water isn't going to cause any damage with that few instances. Maybe if you are washing them 30+ times a day then you might have a worry of skin irritation.

Gloves are a bad idea for most people because they don't know how to use them. I see people with torn gloves that they've clearly been wearing all day instead of at least refreshing them before and after visiting a store. Just wash your hands and stop wasting gloves. Gloves are icky IMO too, your hands get nasty sweaty and wrinkly. Wearing gloves for hours on end is probably a bigger skin damage risk than just washing your hands 10ish times a day.

These days are the worst time to suffer your first public nosebleed in like, 9 years. You have no choice but to touch your face. fething hay fever.

While LA and San Diego have declared they will go to distance learning next year, the Orange County Board of Education voted to reopen public schools with no mask and no public distancing requirements. Politics over the lives of children, parents and teachers.

One pub owner in uk got tired of people ignoring social dlstance. Solution? Electric fence. "works on sheeps, works on people". Nobody has yet tried is it on. And he declines to comment.

Mask wearing to be compulsory in English shops from 24th July.

We all saw it coming. I'm glad I ordered my masks at the weekend.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
These days are the worst time to suffer your first public nosebleed in like, 9 years. You have no choice but to touch your face. fething hay fever.

I don't get nose bleeds, but yeah I've been "touch wood" lucky enough that the food shopping day hasn't been too bad in general and a mint before I go in just about keeps me clear.

tneva82 wrote:
One pub owner in uk got tired of people ignoring social dlstance. Solution? Electric fence. "works on sheeps, works on people". Nobody has yet tried is it on. And he declines to comment.

Put's the whole quote about army of lions lead by sheep and sheep by lion in a whole other perspective
imagine if the persians had electro fences

Sadly (?) it seems he's not actually turned it on
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/07/13/europe/cornwall-pub-electric-fence-gbr-intl/index.html

And it was more preemptive than as a result of bad behaviour. That said if it was on it would certainly keep people back from the bar, electric fences are not nice to touch!

thats be due to use of lektrik requiring written permisson from the local Shaman down West Wales way

and ill confirm those electric fences are rather stingy as wee Turnip once doubted some string could contain Uncle Bobs sheep and Dad telling me it was magic string so I had to touch it #70sparentingftw