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 RiTides wrote:
For what's it's worth, I wholeheartedly agree about not "requiring" schools to open. Each school district should be able to decide what's best for them based on conditions in the community, what mitigation they can put in place, etc.

But I think it's also well worth considering every option, to make sure we give each kid the best chance to learn possible given the circumstances. To call going to school "nebulous gain" (to the other poster above) kind of blows my mind. Can you imagine anyone saying this at any other time - that in-person education is only a nebulous improvement over remote?

That is obviously false. For many kids, school is their lifeline. Lots of families are going to have an incredibly difficult time this year, and writing it off like that is pretty infuriating. I sat on my typing hands, though, and managed to only write this note pointing that out (okay, I admit it, I wrote more but then hit "delete" )

For the most vulnerable demos in America, schools aren't particularly useful at all in education considering how poorly funded they are, and mostly exist as a place to put children while parents work. American education system is fethed, and the utility of children going to it is about the same as just letting them hang out and play in a neighborhood.

So the children of families that have statistically been the most vulnerable (because they have the worst access to health care), also benefit the least from schools that barely function in the best circumstances, and much of this push to reopen in America is driven by Betsy Devos, who is heavily monetarily invested in charter schools, and is ideologically hostile to public schools.

But, yes, in places where the virus is successfully contained to an appreciable level, we could try limited reopening. Too bad the states doing the most aggressive reopenings are all slammed with ever spiking infections. Florida's started running out of ICU beds in some counties

And your position of "I'm just asking questions" Rings super hollow to my American ears because no where in America are the people most aggressively reopening schools doing it the right way, or in areas that have a handle on the coronavirus. There is NO QUESTION that Florida and Texas (to give the two top examples) should not be reopening schools, and you being super duper vague about where and when exactly schools should reopen is a bit smoke screeny.

So, let's pin it down, do you thing florida and texas should fully open schools? No more hypotheticals. Where, specifically, do you think schools should try reopening?

Knock schools all you want, I've actually worked in an inner city school (Baltimore) and it was absolutely vital for those kids. Saying it's the same as telling the kids to just hang out in their neighborhood......... This is, again, obviously false.

Every single school is different. I don't think any entire state should mandate that schools must open. But I think if any school can incorporate some in-person instruction, they should try - and be ready to revert to online if conditions cause it to.

This is what the American pediatric society stated in their original recommendation. If you don't agree with them, that's fine, but the whole point of their recommendation was this isn't black or white - there's a lot of things short of full reopening that could have a huge benefit for kids, and we have to consider them.

In my state today a lady led a high speed chase after she physically fought store employees over her refusal to wear a mask, and then rode over a police officers's foot as she hightailed it away.

Yay, America!

Got to have priorities eh?

 RiTides wrote:
Knock schools all you want, I've actually worked in an inner city school (Baltimore) and it was absolutely vital for those kids. Saying it's the same as telling the kids to just hang out in their neighborhood......... This is, again, obviously false.

Every single school is different. I don't think any entire state should mandate that schools must open. But I think if any school can incorporate some in-person instruction, they should try - and be ready to revert to online if conditions cause it to.

This is what the American pediatric society stated in their original recommendation. If you don't agree with them, that's fine, but the whole point of their recommendation was this isn't black or white - there's a lot of things short of full reopening that could have a huge benefit for kids, and we have to consider them.

I note you refuse to engage with any specific schools or communities to continue to be very vague. Why? Why to you keep equivocating here when there are concrete and real examples of schools being opened in areas with a large amount of CV cases, and you are unable to provide anywhere where this is not true? Have you stopped to actually think about this? Do you support schools opening in Florida and Texas? Are you going to actually answer these questions?


And was your inner city school in a poor district and critically underfunded? Not literally every city district in Baltimore is poor as gak. If so, how many students graduated and improved their social position in life? How many ended up in the school to prison pipeline? Do you know?

What's your opinion of how this country funds schooling? Do you think segregated and poor communities are deliberately underfunded and their education seen as less valuable by the state and society at large?





EDIT: I want to be 100 percent clear. THIS is where we are talking about:

https://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/prevention-cures/507442-almost-one-third-of-florida-children-tested-are

NOT a hypothetical school district in a hypothetical part of the country or the world.

We are talking REAL places that have real issues, that really should NOT be reopening. I don't give a flying feth about hypothetical schools. They aren't real, they're a logic game drained of all real world consequences. I care about the places that are pushing reopening the hardest in the face of ever growing rates of infection for a deadly virus. I care that the people pushing this are invested, politically and financially, in reopening these schools.

I'm not engaging with you because you're not being intellectually honest.

You can easily click "filter thread" and see your earlier posts. They're all about how protests didn't spread the virus because of mask wearing and social distancing. You just cannot have it both ways, as I stated earlier.

As for my school, yes, it was in a critically high need area. It was through the Baltimore City Teaching Residency (basically Teach For America for Baltimore, you can look it up). Only a tiny fraction of the students in my school would go on to college, but that didn't make it less important for them... if anything, it was moreso.

Your complete ignoring of the fact that remote schooling will disproportionately affect communities just like this, again, means it's not worth engaging with you. You can't demand responses, and yet ignore the most basic flaw in your own argument.

To repeat, schools do NOT provide "nebulous gain" for students, and unless you can acknowledge that, we're not even having the same discussion.

I live in a pretty rural area (Aiken county, SC), and broadband internet is not available everywhere. Add in some families with multiple school aged kids do not have multiple computers and 'online' or 'distant learning' just doesn't work well. In the suburban/urban parts of the county it may work better, but definitely not in all areas. Surrounding counties are more rural. The 'distant learning' just isn't a one size fits all solution.

 RiTides wrote:
I'm not engaging with you because you're not being intellectually honest.

You can easily click "filter thread" and see your earlier posts. They're all about how protests didn't spread the virus because of mask wearing and social distancing. You just cannot have it both ways, as I stated earlier.

As for my school, yes, it was in a critically high need area. It was through the Baltimore City Teaching Residency (basically Teach For America for Baltimore, you can look it up). Only a tiny fraction of the students in my school would go on to college, but that didn't make it less important for them... if anything, it was moreso.

Your complete ignoring of the fact that remote schooling will disproportionately affect communities just like this, again, means it's not worth engaging with you. You can't demand responses, and yet ignore the most basic flaw in your own argument.

To repeat, schools do NOT provide "nebulous gain" for students, and unless you can acknowledge that, we're not even having the same discussion.

"I am going to refuse to engage and answer the questions and instead try to deflect to other arguments because I don't actually have one of my own"

Okay dude, cool. Always play offense right? That's what the concept's called.

But, anyways, do you think florida and Texas should open schools or not? This is the actual situation in reality. Not a hypothetical school opening under hypothetical conditions. Real schools looking to be opened under real conditions.

I’ll send a pm instead.

Stratigo, you clearly view it as binary “Open, Yes/No?”. If I did, too, the answer would be “No.” But there are about a thousand options between those binary poles, and I’m much more interested in talking to people who can at least acknowledge that (and consider the cost to kids across the range of options).

 CptJake wrote:
I live in a pretty rural area (Aiken county, SC), and broadband internet is not available everywhere. Add in some families with multiple school aged kids do not have multiple computers and 'online' or 'distant learning' just doesn't work well. In the suburban/urban parts of the county it may work better, but definitely not in all areas. Surrounding counties are more rural. The 'distant learning' just isn't a one size fits all solution.

Exactly...

Each school has to decide based on their student population, facilities, viral caseload, etc and be ready to adapt quickly if their first attempt results in either increased viral transmission, lack of educational progress, or both.

 RiTides wrote:

 CptJake wrote:
I live in a pretty rural area (Aiken county, SC), and broadband internet is not available everywhere. Add in some families with multiple school aged kids do not have multiple computers and 'online' or 'distant learning' just doesn't work well. In the suburban/urban parts of the county it may work better, but definitely not in all areas. Surrounding counties are more rural. The 'distant learning' just isn't a one size fits all solution.

Exactly...

Each school has to decide based on their student population, facilities, viral caseload, etc and be ready to adapt quickly if their first attempt results in either increased viral transmission, lack of educational progress, or both.

This is the same argument that keeps cropping up with regards to something political, but frankly?

Distance learning isn't just broadband internet. It's exactly what it says on the tin: distance learning. I took correspondence courses in high school, and it was literally a bundle of packets that got mailed to me every unit and a textbook that I had to return at the end of it.
There is no way, shape, or form where schools can reliably open in the fall unless we're talking about just the teachers' children being present in the classrooms for the case of distance learning. You can't have the buses running(and in rural areas, you're looking at buses being another big limiting factor...moreso than lack of broadband internet if we're being honest), you can't have the afterschool care programs, etc.

Remember in any regards that the reason broadband internet isn't really available in rural areas is that companies are cheap with infrastructure. I live ten minutes from a major tech hub on the East Coast and my broadband ain't great because I'm out in the 'rural suburbia' of where I live.

EXACTLY
tons of schools around me did packets by teacher/school year and parents would pick up/drop off.
Distance learning will SUCK,
But its not like it isnt a problem worth overcoming and putting all are efforts towards.

 CptJake wrote:
I live in a pretty rural area (Aiken county, SC), and broadband internet is not available everywhere. Add in some families with multiple school aged kids do not have multiple computers and 'online' or 'distant learning' just doesn't work well. In the suburban/urban parts of the county it may work better, but definitely not in all areas. Surrounding counties are more rural. The 'distant learning' just isn't a one size fits all solution.

Its pretty much a suburban (and middle class suburban) solution. Both rural and urban struggle with it pretty hard, usually for similar reasons.
As much as people like to pretend, internet isn't ubiquitous, at least not in a way that's convenient for things other than cat videos (and less savory things, like twitter)

So, weird thing.

I'm watching Contagion, a 2011 film about a pandemic and the people who fight it.

There's a character in the movie who is a conspiracy nut job desperate for attention who concots a bs story about curing himself with forsynthia as part of a scam to make money.

And I was just kind of "damn, called it." XD

stratigo wrote:
For the most vulnerable demos in America, schools aren't particularly useful at all in education considering how poorly funded they are, and mostly exist as a place to put children while parents work. American education system is fethed, and the utility of children going to it is about the same as just letting them hang out and play in a neighborhood.

Despite stress of closures, most parents wary of rush to return to school buildings, polls show

"Black and Hispanic parents appear particularly concerned about the idea of reopening school buildings, which may reflect the way the coronavirus has disproportionately affected those groups.In one recent California poll, just 17% of parents of color and 30% of white parents believed that students should attend in-person classes daily this fall. ... The racial disparities are likely due to a number of factors: higher rates of infection and death from COVID-19 among people of color, distrust of institutions that have not historically prioritized their safety, and the politics of reopening, in which Democrats have expressed more skepticism.

https://www.chalkbeat.org/2020/7/14/21324873/school-closure-reopening-parents-surveys

***

Rush to reopen schools worries a majority of voters : A combined 54 percent of Americans said they are somewhat uncomfortable or very uncomfortable with reopening K-12 schools this fall. (June)

"A combined 73 percent of surveyed Black voters said they were somewhat or very uncomfortable with reopening day care centers. Forty percent of surveyed Black voters said they were very uncomfortable with reopening K-12 schools, while 27 percent said they were somewhat uncomfortable with the idea. Thirty-five percent of surveyed Black voters said they were very uncomfortable with reopening colleges and universities this fall."

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/06/24/rush-to-reopen-schools-worries-voters-337539

 RiTides wrote:
To repeat, schools do NOT provide "nebulous gain" for students, and unless you can acknowledge that, we're not even having the same discussion.

For as long as I can remember, public school being useless has been the hip viewpoint for people to express if they want to seem smart. I think it is an implied statement about how one is 'smarter' than the system, but phrasing it that way reveals how nonsensical the statement is. The nature of the public school system and its varying factors is of such complexity that reducing it down to "nebulous gain" is essentially a non-statement. It would be like saying "cardboard packaging offers nebulous gain" or "starting work at 9 am offers nebulous gain" the statement technically works but in a realistic sense does not. All of this is to say; sometimes it is better to ignore and move on.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 RiTides wrote:

 CptJake wrote:
I live in a pretty rural area (Aiken county, SC), and broadband internet is not available everywhere. Add in some families with multiple school aged kids do not have multiple computers and 'online' or 'distant learning' just doesn't work well. In the suburban/urban parts of the county it may work better, but definitely not in all areas. Surrounding counties are more rural. The 'distant learning' just isn't a one size fits all solution.

Exactly...

Each school has to decide based on their student population, facilities, viral caseload, etc and be ready to adapt quickly if their first attempt results in either increased viral transmission, lack of educational progress, or both.

This is the same argument that keeps cropping up with regards to something political, but frankly?

Distance learning isn't just broadband internet. It's exactly what it says on the tin: distance learning. I took correspondence courses in high school, and it was literally a bundle of packets that got mailed to me every unit and a textbook that I had to return at the end of it..

I agree. My mom took distance learning classes in the 80s for college. The internet didn't exist yet. While it's not a perfect solution, the lack of broadband is really just deflecting.

 Ouze wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 RiTides wrote:

 CptJake wrote:
I live in a pretty rural area (Aiken county, SC), and broadband internet is not available everywhere. Add in some families with multiple school aged kids do not have multiple computers and 'online' or 'distant learning' just doesn't work well. In the suburban/urban parts of the county it may work better, but definitely not in all areas. Surrounding counties are more rural. The 'distant learning' just isn't a one size fits all solution.

Exactly...

Each school has to decide based on their student population, facilities, viral caseload, etc and be ready to adapt quickly if their first attempt results in either increased viral transmission, lack of educational progress, or both.

This is the same argument that keeps cropping up with regards to something political, but frankly?

Distance learning isn't just broadband internet. It's exactly what it says on the tin: distance learning. I took correspondence courses in high school, and it was literally a bundle of packets that got mailed to me every unit and a textbook that I had to return at the end of it..

I agree. My mom took distance learning classes in the 80s for college. The internet didn't exist yet. While it's not a perfect solution, the lack of broadband is really just deflecting.

Huge difference between college classes and elementary, middle and even high school. Younger kids need more than a 'packet' of work to do. They need to be taught. That requires back-and-forth interactions with teachers. I guess you could want the parents to fill that role instead. May work in some cases. I suspect in many rural and urban areas you'll have trouble finding parents qualified to teach much past 6-7th grade.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And my daughter (just finished her junior year of HS) was in the 'pick up packets and drop them back off' category for most of her classes. It was fething awful. Several of her teachers made NO effort to help her when she had questions. She had to get her AP Bio teacher to help her with chemistry because her chemistry teacher was worthless. Other would take back the packets and she would get no feedback for 2-3 weeks. And yes, the wife and I tried to get the school to make the teachers do their jobs. Not much success. She was spending 10-12 hours a day because some teachers thought 'quantity' of work in the packets made up for interaction with the student.

No, that isn't a solution.

You got a better idea?

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
You got a better idea?

Yep, let her go to school until the county can put in the infrastructure required to make distant learning effective (broadband access, teach the teachers how to do it effectively, ensure kids have the tech they need and so on).

Edit: Removed. It was a toxic comment and I should not have made it.

My wife is also in the same boat of having a rural school that not only has crap internet access, but also a poor family base where not all families even have a computer. Lots of kids this spring were having to park in the parking lot of the school and use their wifi, with phones. How is that going to work if they are still having to do that in a Michigan winter?

Also the problem of distancing. Sure, in some way classrooms can have distancing imposed. But what about the 30 minute plus bus rides to and from school for rural kids? There were kids on my bus in school that had 45 minute rides either in the morning or the night, depending on where they were picked up. Mine was nearly that both ways as I was right in the middle of the loop. What....just buy more buses?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CptJake wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
You got a better idea?

Yep, let her go to school until the county can put in the infrastructure required to make distant learning effective (broadband access, teach the teachers how to do it effectively, ensure kids have the tech they need and so on).

So....basically ignore everything and make them go to school through the entire rest of this pandemic and just get sick. Because those things aren't coming soon, in any way, shape, or form, to the majority of schools.

America needs to stop trying to address this pandemic as "full speed ahead and damn the torpedoes". Sacrifices have to be made, and the choice has to be made between lots of little ones, or a few great, big ones. Usually the refusal of the former leads to the latter.

 CptJake wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
You got a better idea?

Yep, let her go to school until the county can put in the infrastructure required to make distant learning effective (broadband access, teach the teachers how to do it effectively, ensure kids have the tech they need and so on).

So you pretty much want to ignore all safety concerns for your own benefit/comfort.

This is why the entire thing is blowing up as it is.
People are not willing to make sacrifices or work to make things work. Its just "well X is a problem, ERGO we should not adress or work towards it, just send everyone back to work/school or the death pits.


Not only this, but this is a perfect time to teach kids basic time management skills for when they have work and all the time to complete.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
To repeat, schools do NOT provide "nebulous gain" for students, and unless you can acknowledge that, we're not even having the same discussion.

For as long as I can remember, public school being useless has been the hip viewpoint for people to express if they want to seem smart. I think it is an implied statement about how one is 'smarter' than the system, but phrasing it that way reveals how nonsensical the statement is. The nature of the public school system and its varying factors is of such complexity that reducing it down to "nebulous gain" is essentially a non-statement. It would be like saying "cardboard packaging offers nebulous gain" or "starting work at 9 am offers nebulous gain" the statement technically works but in a realistic sense does not. All of this is to say; sometimes it is better to ignore and move on.

Sound advice, NinthMusketeer - thanks for that! I thought so a bit too, but it's much easier to see when another person points it out lol.

Will certainly take your advice going forward

Im not saying schools are useless at all. Infact I think they do offer benifits that cannot be qualified easily.
My argument is that are we willing to gain those benifits at the risk of exposing more and more to the virus when we should be doing the opposite

Sorry hotsauceman, that wasn't to you. I've found your posts in this thread really reasonable and it's obvious you were thinking about the consequences, which is honestly all I want. It's going to be really tough no matter what

You know what would have helped immensely in this situation? More funding for Education to deal with this sort of thing. Actually dealing with infrastructure needs and treating the internet as basic utilities.

Hindsight is 20/20 though! So here we go! Sure hope none of those big colleges or universities go out of business. *eats chips* I would feel terrible if those loans got forgiven.

I would like to say things will be better when hindsight is literally 2020 but I'm not very sure.

 Dreadwinter wrote:
You know what would have helped immensely in this situation? More funding for Education to deal with this sort of thing. Actually dealing with infrastructure needs and treating the internet as basic utilities.

Hindsight is 20/20 though! So here we go! Sure hope none of those big colleges or universities go out of business. *eats chips* I would feel terrible if those loans got forgiven.

Why would they be? Most student loans aren't with the universities. Even if they did go out of business, people will still have the loans.

Its also a bit of a tangent from the K-12 education people have been talking about.

 Dreadwinter wrote:
You know what would have helped immensely in this situation? More funding for Education to deal with this sort of thing. Actually dealing with infrastructure needs and treating the internet as basic utilities.

Hindsight is 20/20 though! So here we go! Sure hope none of those big colleges or universities go out of business. *eats chips* I would feel terrible if those loans got forgiven.

I mean, my problem is that schools are this vector for these horrible stop gap policies of addressing social ills(Lack of food for children, Reporting abuse and much more) rather than independent systems that are free to address it

Also, the schoiols dont hold the loans in almost all cases.