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Although I'd also say that it's hard to believe that the Canadian boat can be making money with six people on a boat that size. Each trip almost has to be a money loser, unless they're being subsidized somehow. Where the American boat may not be. Not making excuses for the lack of distancing on the American boat, mind you.

stratigo wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
I don't think most sectors won't recover, although it's very possible demand could shift - i.e. Blockbuster giving way to Netflix. Sucks for a lot of folks caught in the middle of any transition like that employment-wise, obviously

I dont wanna sound rude or dismissive....but this is always happens.
Old gives way to new and people are always cought up when it. When farm life gave way to factory. And some adapt and some dont.

And while this was happening, the government eventually stepped in and started spending vast amounts of money to alleviate the pain of farmers suffering from the switch and the disasters of the time. I mean, this was a core part of the New Deal.

That's the issue. You don't just go "Well it sucks to be them, guess they should starve to death in the streets". You help them adapt, and catch those that simply can't.

This has actually happened a number of times. Also, there's always a racial dynamic to who gets saved and the people left behind to suffer the most.

See our govt thinks the opposite now, they work on saving failing industries rather than help those people who are caught up in the change to adapt and change in the new industry
For example congress ordering more tanks they did not need nor the army wanted to keep factories open.
Im not saying dont help peoplle., im saying dont prop up dying industries(Like oil and gas should be dying at this point, but it keeps getting propped up by the govt)

Counterpoint is that job retraining for a coal miner doesn't help that much when said miner lives in a dying rural coal town. What other type of job are they supposed to find there? And moving isn't easy. Selling your house in said dying town with plunging home values doesn't get you much if you move where the jobs are.

Retraining is a component of the solution, but there's a lot of false promise that comes with it. There really are no easy answers and this is why so many blue collar folks in these kinds of situations are so angry.

 gorgon wrote:
Counterpoint is that job retraining for a coal miner doesn't help that much when said miner lives in a dying rural coal town. What other type of job are they supposed to find there? And moving isn't easy. Selling your house in said dying town with plunging home values doesn't get you much if you move where the jobs are.

Retraining is a component of the solution, but there's a lot of false promise that comes with it. There really are no easy answers and this is why so many blue collar folks in these kinds of situations are so angry.

Stuff like this almost makes you wish there was a federal housing guarantee, so that you're not tethered to a dying industry in a dying town until you die as well.

 gorgon wrote:
Counterpoint is that job retraining for a coal miner doesn't help that much when said miner lives in a dying rural coal town. What other type of job are they supposed to find there? And moving isn't easy. Selling your house in said dying town with plunging home values doesn't get you much if you move where the jobs are.

Retraining is a component of the solution, but there's a lot of false promise that comes with it. There really are no easy answers and this is why so many blue collar folks in these kinds of situations are so angry.

I think we’re past the point where retraining alone is viable. People need financial assistance, and it makes more economic sense to help pay them to move where the jobs (and assistance infrastructure) are than to pay them the same amount or more to survive in that dying town. It means sacrificing a lot of their way of life, so it should be a choice rather than compulsory. But that’s really the only hope I see for improving their situation.

 gorgon wrote:
Although I'd also say that it's hard to believe that the Canadian boat can be making money with six people on a boat that size. Each trip almost has to be a money loser, unless they're being subsidized somehow. Where the American boat may not be. Not making excuses for the lack of distancing on the American boat, mind you.

The article quotes the manager of the Canadian boat company saying they've changed the ticket to be more of a VIP experience with a meal thrown in and other incentives and also upped the price to $70 per passenger. Probably still not making a profit at just over $400 per boat but it does show there are ways companies can adapt.

I mean, surely this is the perfect time to try and invest in local production of the various goods that are outsourced? Create new jobs that would strengthen industry, improve production methods and such. There's already complaints about struggling to buy whitegoods in Australia due to the current rising tensions with China, who's main selling point is it's massive production through the exploitation of it's people.

The only real reason not to is because some very powerful people with lots of money would lose some of that income. Oh no, I weep tears for them. If the govs wasn't run almost purely by businessmen it would have already happened I bet.

 gorgon wrote:
Counterpoint is that job retraining for a coal miner doesn't help that much when said miner lives in a dying rural coal town. What other type of job are they supposed to find there? And moving isn't easy. Selling your house in said dying town with plunging home values doesn't get you much if you move where the jobs are.

Retraining is a component of the solution, but there's a lot of false promise that comes with it. There really are no easy answers and this is why so many blue collar folks in these kinds of situations are so angry.

Yes its tough, but why should we continue to prop up something that is no longer needed just because of jobs? Not to mention there can be replacements, maybe replace to coal with a better newer industry in that town Like Nuclear or other forms of industry that are not on their way out rather than keeping an industry that is only surviving because the govt refuses it.

cody.d. wrote:
I mean, surely this is the perfect time to try and invest in local production of the various goods that are outsourced? Create new jobs that would strengthen industry, improve production methods and such. There's already complaints about struggling to buy whitegoods in Australia due to the current rising tensions with China, who's main selling point is it's massive production through the exploitation of it's people.

The only real reason not to is because some very powerful people with lots of money would lose some of that income. Oh no, I weep tears for them. If the govs wasn't run almost purely by businessmen it would have already happened I bet.

I think this was referenced up thread already, but decentralising manufacturing is expensive and that cost only gets passed on.

So you'd end up with a situation where people can get a new washing machine, they just can't afford it.

I know of a coworker who in one year has beaten both COVID and cancer! Made my day to hear that.

Cody-d, sorry if I quote this incorrectly, this is my first go at quotes...

The only real reason not to is because some very powerful people with lots of money would lose some of that income. Oh no, I weep tears for them. If the govs wasn't run almost purely by businessmen it would have already happened I bet.

While your not wholly wrong, I actually wish western governments were run by businessmen and women, preferably those with small to mid-size businesses. Business folks of that stripe tend to be imminently rational, who realize their success rests on the success of others. They are the risk takers that have been the greatest builders of the middle class in history. Hence CV19 response would have likely been more rational, measured and targeted to those most vulnerable, not the one size fits all "hide in the basement" we got that closed those very businesses (which employ millions) and left open only the mega-corporations and government.

Unfortunately, unless you consider lawyers, whose services involve the multiplication of bureaucracy and the redistribution of rights and properties from one aggrieved party to another, our governments are not run by businessmen and women. They are run by career lawyers (influence peddlers) and career bureaucrats whose contribution to society consists of libraries of minutia used to entrap citizens in mindless legality whose only purpose is to strengthen the power of said government. They are backed and financed by a few crony capitalist mega-corporations who spend much of their time attempting to deny others the access to the very free-market that made them so successful.

Oh that I wish middling business people had a greater voice in government during the time of Covid 19.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
Counterpoint is that job retraining for a coal miner doesn't help that much when said miner lives in a dying rural coal town. What other type of job are they supposed to find there? And moving isn't easy. Selling your house in said dying town with plunging home values doesn't get you much if you move where the jobs are.

Retraining is a component of the solution, but there's a lot of false promise that comes with it. There really are no easy answers and this is why so many blue collar folks in these kinds of situations are so angry.

Yes its tough, but why should we continue to prop up something that is no longer needed just because of jobs? Not to mention there can be replacements, maybe replace to coal with a better newer industry in that town Like Nuclear or other forms of industry that are not on their way out rather than keeping an industry that is only surviving because the govt refuses it.

I believe coal still generates something close to a quarter of US energy. So while it's dying, it's hardly dead and 'propped up'. And how do you just 'replace' an industry in a rural area? Maybe you can get a distribution warehouse or something if you're lucky.

Saying 'well it's tough but' is being completely dismissive of people's livelihoods and families. What do you get when whole swathes of people lose jobs? You get desperate, bitter folks who are angry at the system and ready to vote in someone who promises to burn it down, even if said person displays bad and autocratic tendencies. Throw in some blame toward a certain segment or two of the populace and now you have some real rocket fuel. It's a simple formula that repeats itself around the world in different eras.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

1/325AIR wrote:
While your not wholly wrong, I actually wish western governments were run by businessmen and women, preferably those with small to mid-size businesses. Business folks of that stripe tend to be imminently rational, who realize their success rests on the success of others. They are the risk takers that have been the greatest builders of the middle class in history. Hence CV19 response would have likely been more rational, measured and targeted to those most vulnerable, not the one size fits all "hide in the basement" we got that closed those very businesses (which employ millions) and left open only the mega-corporations and government.

Unfortunately, unless you consider lawyers, whose services involve the multiplication of bureaucracy and the redistribution of rights and properties from one aggrieved party to another, our governments are not run by businessmen and women. They are run by career lawyers (influence peddlers) and career bureaucrats whose contribution to society consists of libraries of minutia used to entrap citizens in mindless legality whose only purpose is to strengthen the power of said government. They are backed and financed by a few crony capitalist mega-corporations who spend much of their time attempting to deny others the access to the very free-market that made them so successful.

Oh that I wish middling business people had a greater voice in government during the time of Covid 19.

I don't really agree with this. Good governing is about negotiation and compromise and the greater good, and small business people in my experience like being the regents of their domain no matter how small it is.

 gorgon wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
Counterpoint is that job retraining for a coal miner doesn't help that much when said miner lives in a dying rural coal town. What other type of job are they supposed to find there? And moving isn't easy. Selling your house in said dying town with plunging home values doesn't get you much if you move where the jobs are.

Retraining is a component of the solution, but there's a lot of false promise that comes with it. There really are no easy answers and this is why so many blue collar folks in these kinds of situations are so angry.

Yes its tough, but why should we continue to prop up something that is no longer needed just because of jobs? Not to mention there can be replacements, maybe replace to coal with a better newer industry in that town Like Nuclear or other forms of industry that are not on their way out rather than keeping an industry that is only surviving because the govt refuses it.

I believe coal still generates something close to a quarter of US energy. So while it's dying, it's hardly dead and 'propped up'. And how do you just 'replace' an industry in a rural area? Maybe you can get a distribution warehouse or something if you're lucky.

Saying 'well it's tough but' is being completely dismissive of people's livelihoods and families. What do you get when whole swathes of people lose jobs? You get desperate, bitter folks who are angry at the system and ready to vote in someone who promises to burn it down, even if said person displays bad and autocratic tendencies. Throw in some blame toward a certain segment or two of the populace and now you have some real rocket fuel. It's a simple formula that repeats itself around the world in different eras.

So what? do you think we should just continue to operate these thing in perpetuity or else? And rural areas are a big problem with the US because well, they cost us money because we continue to operate them in fear of industry leaving them. Like it or not, the time of rural towns supported by one industry is going away and we cant just keep them there. The world goes on, jobs come and go as the technology improves(There is no such thing as a milkman anymore)
The government shouldnt be keeping some industries alive that have long outlived their usefullness(Yes, i believe coal is one, there is numerous other forms of every that can be provided from nuclear, to geothermal to wind). They should be training and retraining people to take over with these new jobs. As one of my professors said "Jobs never disappear, they change" Coal miner could become worker at a nuclear plant.

 Azreal13 wrote:

cody.d. wrote:
I mean, surely this is the perfect time to try and invest in local production of the various goods that are outsourced? Create new jobs that would strengthen industry, improve production methods and such. There's already complaints about struggling to buy whitegoods in Australia due to the current rising tensions with China, who's main selling point is it's massive production through the exploitation of it's people.

The only real reason not to is because some very powerful people with lots of money would lose some of that income. Oh no, I weep tears for them. If the govs wasn't run almost purely by businessmen it would have already happened I bet.

I think this was referenced up thread already, but decentralising manufacturing is expensive and that cost only gets passed on.

So you'd end up with a situation where people can get a new washing machine, they just can't afford it.

I mean, there are quite a few industrial districts that could be beefed up to fulfill those requirements. In Australia at least (I'm assuming in America as well, Europe can't say) The savings on overseas distribution would go some way to abate the increased costs, as would using modern manufacturing techniques (A lot of the massproduction in Asia still uses fairly basic methods from their days of expansion in the industrial era) Not saying it would be cheap, but it would certainly be more ethical and provide more to the countries themselves (And also weaken the economic strangehold China has on the world right now.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

1/325AIR wrote:

Cody-d, sorry if I quote this incorrectly, this is my first go at quotes...

The only real reason not to is because some very powerful people with lots of money would lose some of that income. Oh no, I weep tears for them. If the govs wasn't run almost purely by businessmen it would have already happened I bet.

While your not wholly wrong, I actually wish western governments were run by businessmen and women, preferably those with small to mid-size businesses. Business folks of that stripe tend to be imminently rational, who realize their success rests on the success of others. They are the risk takers that have been the greatest builders of the middle class in history. Hence CV19 response would have likely been more rational, measured and targeted to those most vulnerable, not the one size fits all "hide in the basement" we got that closed those very businesses (which employ millions) and left open only the mega-corporations and government.

Unfortunately, unless you consider lawyers, whose services involve the multiplication of bureaucracy and the redistribution of rights and properties from one aggrieved party to another, our governments are not run by businessmen and women. They are run by career lawyers (influence peddlers) and career bureaucrats whose contribution to society consists of libraries of minutia used to entrap citizens in mindless legality whose only purpose is to strengthen the power of said government. They are backed and financed by a few crony capitalist mega-corporations who spend much of their time attempting to deny others the access to the very free-market that made them so successful.

Oh that I wish middling business people had a greater voice in government during the time of Covid 19.

Hmm, fair point. Perhaps it's Trump's administration that gave me that impression. But he's more of a realestate magnate isn't it? Not that much difference from an influence peddler as you put it is there?

He is a (repeatedly) failed businessman. Which, to tie this back to the pandemic, really does illuminate the situation. Imagine a business run into the ground by poor management who failed to navigate a crisis. You know the crisis can be successfully managed because the other businesses in town all did so. But this one formerly successful business goes down the tubes in short order because it has recently come under new management who does not know what to do and staunchly refuses to listen or accept help.

Wasn't it like, 3 cases of bankruptcy?

Well, 'murca has reached 4 million cases, and nearly 150,000 deaths.

The death rat seems to be ~3.7%. Some people who want to defend the way covid is handled will sneer that's fake news as it doesn't count the people who had it and never even got sick.

Others will say it's false as those handling the covid situation are under reporting covid deaths and concealing data.

Since no one will agree on a number because reality has been reduced to irrelevancy by political and social bias, i'm going with the numbers i have.

Covid's death rate is nearly double the "2%" rate we were told it would be.

When AIDS came along the administration ignored it at first. It wasn't until rock hudson, a personal friend of president reagan and her husband, got it that they began to respond.

The fact is diseases are now political issues as the response to an epidemic is now completely controlled by politics.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I know of a coworker who in one year has beaten both COVID and cancer! Made my day to hear that.

Whilest he should be carefull still, that is one impressive constitution.

 Matt Swain wrote:

Spoiler:

Well, 'murca has reached 4 million cases, and nearly 150,000 deaths.

The death rat seems to be ~3.7%. Some people who want to defend the way covid is handled will sneer that's fake news as it doesn't count the people who had it and never even got sick.

Others will say it's false as those handling the covid situation are under reporting covid deaths and concealing data.

Since no one will agree on a number because reality has been reduced to irrelevancy by political and social bias, i'm going with the numbers i have.

Covid's death rate is nearly double the "2%" rate we were told it would be.

When AIDS came along the administration ignored it at first. It wasn't until rock hudson, a personal friend of president reagan and her husband, got it that they began to respond.

The fact is diseases are now political issues as the response to an epidemic is now completely controlled by politics.

I wouldn't focus on just the death rate. Getting Covid-19 isn't a binary option of you either die or you 100% recover. There are several longterm problems you can suffer from, and those can be just as bad for the world. It's bad enough to lose 1% of the population to a disease, but it's also very bad to have 10% of your population suffer a permanent disability from this disease if it runs unchecked.

edit: those numbers are examples only, I don't know the actual percentages.

So now trump is going to withold cash from schools that don't reopen and that money goes to private schools. In particular religious ones. No extortion at all there nooo!

It was going there anyways thanks to DeVos.

Guys, I'm trying to give as much leeway as I can here...

Let's try to stay on topic, so we don't have to close the thread. Thanks everyone

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
Counterpoint is that job retraining for a coal miner doesn't help that much when said miner lives in a dying rural coal town. What other type of job are they supposed to find there? And moving isn't easy. Selling your house in said dying town with plunging home values doesn't get you much if you move where the jobs are.

Retraining is a component of the solution, but there's a lot of false promise that comes with it. There really are no easy answers and this is why so many blue collar folks in these kinds of situations are so angry.

Yes its tough, but why should we continue to prop up something that is no longer needed just because of jobs? Not to mention there can be replacements, maybe replace to coal with a better newer industry in that town Like Nuclear or other forms of industry that are not on their way out rather than keeping an industry that is only surviving because the govt refuses it.

I believe coal still generates something close to a quarter of US energy. So while it's dying, it's hardly dead and 'propped up'. And how do you just 'replace' an industry in a rural area? Maybe you can get a distribution warehouse or something if you're lucky.

Saying 'well it's tough but' is being completely dismissive of people's livelihoods and families. What do you get when whole swathes of people lose jobs? You get desperate, bitter folks who are angry at the system and ready to vote in someone who promises to burn it down, even if said person displays bad and autocratic tendencies. Throw in some blame toward a certain segment or two of the populace and now you have some real rocket fuel. It's a simple formula that repeats itself around the world in different eras.

So what? do you think we should just continue to operate these thing in perpetuity or else? And rural areas are a big problem with the US because well, they cost us money because we continue to operate them in fear of industry leaving them. Like it or not, the time of rural towns supported by one industry is going away and we cant just keep them there. The world goes on, jobs come and go as the technology improves(There is no such thing as a milkman anymore)
The government shouldnt be keeping some industries alive that have long outlived their usefullness(Yes, i believe coal is one, there is numerous other forms of every that can be provided from nuclear, to geothermal to wind). They should be training and retraining people to take over with these new jobs. As one of my professors said "Jobs never disappear, they change" Coal miner could become worker at a nuclear plant.

You seem to think the situation is something other than what it really is, so I don't know how we can have a conversation about it. Everything isn't handwavium.

Except it isnt.
People are saying that this virus could cause a work from home revolution.
But that this could hurt businesses that live off of offices and business centers(Like coffee shops, sandwich shops and other such things) to collapse.
So some people are saying that we should head back because of those places. But why should we continue to work with an outdated model, just because we are afraid of jobs moving away or leaving? my whole point is fear of progress because loss of jobs is insanity.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I know of a coworker who in one year has beaten both COVID and cancer! Made my day to hear that.

Whilest he should be carefull still, that is one impressive constitution.

He’s aged about 20 years but yeah it’s impressive.

Sainsbury and asda not going to enforce masks. Profits over safety eh?

 Future War Cultist wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I know of a coworker who in one year has beaten both COVID and cancer! Made my day to hear that.

Whilest he should be carefull still, that is one impressive constitution.

He’s aged about 20 years but yeah it’s impressive.

let's hope he got out of it unscathed, lungs and heart check ups should happen regardless, considering that's the most sideeffects of getting it.

tneva82 wrote:
Sainsbury and asda not going to enforce masks. Profits over safety eh?

That's some spectacular mental gymnastics on display. How, exactly, do you think that not asking their staff to get involved in law enforcement with people who, by dint of the fact they're not wearing masks when we've known we were being asked to wear them from today for weeks, are already displaying a higher than baseline chance if being a belligerent donkey-cave translates into more profit?

If anything, they're increasing the chance that the "reasonable middle" will shop in stores that are enforcing the mask rule over concerns for their own personal safety and will reduce their income.

Wla-mart recently started a Mask Policy on the 20th. I had to go their for some stuff on the 22nd, and it was less than half as busy at it normally is.

Part of it is the implosion of our normal tourist economy this time of year, but part of it was the mask restrictions.

All the major grocery stores in my area now have them.

Guys, understand this now: I am not a follower of Ayn Rhand. I find her repugnant and repellent, I disagree with her views to the extreme and i am in no way endorsing anything she believed or preached.

That established, I must state she said one thing that's true and relevant to our situation: "You can choose to ignore reality. You cannot choose to ignore the consequences of ignoring reality."

The situation in 'murca today is absolute proof that is true. Not just leaders but their followers in the millions choose to ignore the facts and reality of covid, but the consequences of doing so come into effect regardless.