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 Da Boss wrote:
I cannot go to a shop anywhere within several hundred kilometers of my location and buy warmachine miniatures any more, so I think that might be a pretty major problem. The EU is the worlds biggest single market, and it's richest, if you can't manage to keep your game in stock here then you are not really a big player any more.

AFAIK the comic shop in nuremberg city still sells WM/H stuff.
But it's definitely not as popular as it was some time ago. I still got a cupboard full of WM miniatures that I'm trying to sell, but there is not much interest in privateerpress products in germany anymore...

*drums fingers, sighs*

Alright, I agree. I guess I commend centralized, updated rules more than anything. I also super dislike GW's campaign style books with 2 pages of rules updates for your army and a truck load of stuff you don't care about. Neither mean that PP got it right with their approach tho.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Flip side is that by doing this PP killed a big revenue generator, caused the games fluff development to stagnate and created somewhat of an access barrier to the fluff (the absence of books with fluff in them means most players are entirely clueless about the fluff and the lore and makes them less likely to buy the novels that PP has published in their place), and indirectly contributed to the decline of the WMHDs casual community by killing much of the interest in the lore and eliminating a lot of the narrative/casual level content from the game.

Many fair points. I very much like WMH's lore - which is shocking because I really struggle to care about game lore, especially fantasy lore; to date 40k + WMH are the only I've really been gripped by - so this is a big, sad thing. Lore divestment probably adds to the feeling that the game is just played by hyper competitive types who only use 2D terrain and min/max list design.

Also, uh, I didn't realize there are WMH novels

I will agree that GW's campaign books can be a rather miss system when they include a mix of campaign and core rules and when GW spreads them out rather messily as they have been doing with 40K thus far.


But I think the core concept of codex/battletomes works very well and I think 30 years of GW doing well kinda proves it.

Heck if you look at even casual lore most GW gamers know the casual lore of the game setting and their army and likely one or two others. Contrast that to other games and many have a much more hazy understanding of the story setting - even if its written better at a technical or depth level.


AS for novels they are so easily overlooked - even GW's Black Library is often overlooked even within fantasy and sci-fi reading groups (perhaps barring a big signature series like Horus Heresy).



I think that PP's issues with stock and price in the EU/UK market for a while didn't help matters. Again I think its another one of those "several bad things came along at once and all made each other worse as a result" kinda aspects. Gamers couldn't get stock for a while or it was iffy; so they started shifting interests to the point where stock demands went way down etc...

There is a lot of stuff that has gone on behind the scenes that most players know nothing about. Several years ago, I heard a very true statement: "Privateer Press is successful despite Privateer Press". But they are a shadow of where they were in 2010-2012. There was some hope for the game and company last year, but that door was abruptly shut, and now, here we are. PP isn't dead yet, but it needs to do a lot of things to turn things around.

1. Rules and Rules Bloat- MK IV?
2. Inventory Issues- this constant cycling of models- as in, get the new stuff when it comes out, or you'll be waiting months, if not years, before it's made again needs to stop
3. Distributor issues- I should 100% be able to go to my FLGS and have them order a model. Instead, the FLGS or their distributor have dropped PP, forcing me to buy direct from PP
4. Community Management- Engage the community in two way communication, not one way from PP -> customers
5. SKU bloat- A long time ago, PP said no model will ever be retired or made obsolete. This is unsustainable. They have to generate new models to keep sales up, but there are so many SKU's now, that it contributes to 1-3
6. Go 100% plastic. This will require a huge investment in $, which PP probably doesn't have now. For a company that plans out models and releases years in advance, they seem very short sighted when it comes to running the business

The Skull Island Expedition novels are pretty solid, but PP published way too many of them for the size of the audience. There's a few that are pretty massively important to the fluff and the Butcher's origin novel is fantastic, but as much as I enjoy the setting, there was just way too much to keep up with.

 Boss Salvage wrote:


Also, uh, I didn't realize there are WMH novels

You aren't alone on that front, from what I've gathered the novels haven't done very well overall, in large part because they were created in an attempt to make up for the fact that PP moved away from their old model of advancing the fluff with each new rulebook - but without having anything tangible tying the fluff back to the game ala the rulebooks, there was very little interest in the novels.

5. SKU bloat- A long time ago, PP said no model will ever be retired or made obsolete. This is unsustainable. They have to generate new models to keep sales up, but there are so many SKU's now, that it contributes to 1-3

I think an evolution to the Active Duty Roster is needed in this sense. I think most of us agree we don't want to have our older models forever invalidated because the got pulled out of rotation, it would be nice if instead each year PP published an ADR that extended to units, solos, etc. and those were the units eligible for Steamroller/competitive play for the duration of the year. I would propose a healthy ADR mix would be somethinng like 50% models from the previous 1-2 year period, 25% "legacy" models from prior to that period, and 25% new models released over the course of the season. This way players are encouraged to continue purchasing newer stuff, but their older stuff doesn't eventually become forever useless - if its not eligible for competitive play this year, it might be eligible next year. As far as retailers are concerned, I would think its a win/win - they only need to worry about ordering and keeping inventory of the latest SKUs into the shop, but if they have older inventory they don't need to blow it out at bargain basement prices because even if its not hot this year - it might become hot again next year. On PPs end its also advantageous as they don't need to worry about maintaining production/stock/distribution of their entire back catalog all the time, they can focus on the latest stuff and a curated selection of their back catalog relevant to the current years ADR, refresh the molds, etc. for the other stuff in the downtime without worrying about people bitching that xyz unit is out of stock and the game has become pay to win because they can only get it on eBay for 300% markup, and then rotate their production at the start of the next year. Alternatively, they can rotate the non-ADR models into direct only/made to order sales with a longer lead-time and a higher profit margin if they are concerned about accessibility of the back catalog to newer/casual players.

In any case, basically the idea here is that you acknowledge that a not insignificant segment of the back catalog will be more or less unavailable for somewhat lengthy periods of time, but thats okay because you are discouraging those models from being used anyway/encouraging the community to use other models instead, and also because no matter what that back catalog will never be *permanently* unavailable, because you will inevitably rotate other parts of the back catalog back into availability after a fixed period of time. In truth, I think 1 year rotations might be a bit *too* lengthy - particularly with regards to bringing in new players who might be interested in rounding out their collections, etc. but I don't see this system working to combat SKU bloat in any chunks of time smaller than that. As far as the existing playerbase is concerned, however, I don't see any issues as most of us probably already own everything for the factions we play.

A lot of rotation could be done with generous proxy rules. Rotated out characters being available as legal stand ins for something else. There's enough resculpts in the system as is (particularly post Minicrate) we're essentially already there.

Realistically GW has the right idea with Legends. Ceasing production on something, locking its rules down, and making it "casual play only" is probably the way to go. That's effectively how it works now, without the advantage of being able to cut the SKU from production.

That, and they need some serious rebundling of old SKUs. There's zero reason by this point not to have faction support packs that contain say.... Krielstone/Runebearer/Whelps or Choir/Vassals/Wracks and the like. Yes, technically Choir are FA:2. Probably a good time to change that.

 LunarSol wrote:


Realistically GW has the right idea with Legends. Ceasing production on something, locking its rules down, and making it "casual play only" is probably the way to go. That's effectively how it works now, without the advantage of being able to cut the SKU from production.

That was essentially a "one and done" thing though - GW isn't going to keep shifting things over to Legends over time, they only shifted over those items that were already long out of production (if they were ever in production in the first place)/unavailable for years. Not only that, but they didn't declare Legends rules to be casual only or permission only or whatever - they recommended away from using them in tournaments because they would not be supporting those models with FAQs/erratas/balance updates going forward, but that decisionw as left strictly up to TOs as to whether or not they would allow them. Thats very different than PP deciding that every model is going to be removed from production and made limited-use on its 10th birthday (for example) and no longer sanctioned for use in any events (unlike 40k, WMHDs competitive scene is largely dominated and controlled by the company itself). The community absolutely would not support this and you would absolutely see the game die as a result. The only reason GW was able to get away with it with limited public outcry is because the vast majority of models affected by it were not models that GW sold people in the first place. I mean, am I pissed that my 30 rough riders are probably never going to be usable outside of casual games? Sure - but they also aren't minis that GW sold me for that purpose in the first place. Almost everything in the Legends list was something that had to be kitbashed/converted for that purpose (if you wanted to be strictly WYSIWYG at any rate), or are models that GW had stopped selling 2-3 editions prior because they had been phased out/replaced by something else - Ork Big Gunz were discontinued in 2012, Ork Skorchas were discontinued years before that. The majority of the people that still had those older models weren't playing anymore (and if they were, weren't using those models very often). It just worked. The situation with WMHDs is very different and its not an environment conducive to that sort of policy.

That, and they need some serious rebundling of old SKUs. There's zero reason by this point not to have faction support packs that contain say.... Krielstone/Runebearer/Whelps or Choir/Vassals/Wracks and the like. Yes, technically Choir are FA:2. Probably a good time to change that.

Absolutely agree, especially if they are going to reboot the game and try to make it more accessible to new blood coming in. Shift the standalone miniatures to direct only for established players who already have most of the contents of those packs and don't want to drop $50 to get the one solo they need and I think you're golden.

I wouldn't say it has to be on the model's 10th anniversary, just when it is completely redundant. There's lots of examples of that already; mostly in casters, but also in solos, also a few units. If say, Sword Knights and Long Gunners went away no one would care, particularly if they were made alt sculpts of say, Marrowans and Trencher Long Gunner respectfully. Lots of casters could work the same way.

chaos0xomega wrote:
I think an evolution to the Active Duty Roster is needed in this sense. I think most of us agree we don't want to have our older models forever invalidated because the got pulled out of rotation, it would be nice if instead each year PP published an ADR that extended to units, solos, etc. and those were the units eligible for Steamroller/competitive play for the duration of the year. I would propose a healthy ADR mix would be somethinng like 50% models from the previous 1-2 year period, 25% "legacy" models from prior to that period, and 25% new models released over the course of the season. This way players are encouraged to continue purchasing newer stuff, but their older stuff doesn't eventually become forever useless - if its not eligible for competitive play this year, it might be eligible next year. As far as retailers are concerned, I would think its a win/win - they only need to worry about ordering and keeping inventory of the latest SKUs into the shop, but if they have older inventory they don't need to blow it out at bargain basement prices because even if its not hot this year - it might become hot again next year. On PPs end its also advantageous as they don't need to worry about maintaining production/stock/distribution of their entire back catalog all the time, they can focus on the latest stuff and a curated selection of their back catalog relevant to the current years ADR, refresh the molds, etc. for the other stuff in the downtime without worrying about people bitching that xyz unit is out of stock and the game has become pay to win because they can only get it on eBay for 300% markup, and then rotate their production at the start of the next year. Alternatively, they can rotate the non-ADR models into direct only/made to order sales with a longer lead-time and a higher profit margin if they are concerned about accessibility of the back catalog to newer/casual players.

In any case, basically the idea here is that you acknowledge that a not insignificant segment of the back catalog will be more or less unavailable for somewhat lengthy periods of time, but thats okay because you are discouraging those models from being used anyway/encouraging the community to use other models instead, and also because no matter what that back catalog will never be *permanently* unavailable, because you will inevitably rotate other parts of the back catalog back into availability after a fixed period of time. In truth, I think 1 year rotations might be a bit *too* lengthy - particularly with regards to bringing in new players who might be interested in rounding out their collections, etc. but I don't see this system working to combat SKU bloat in any chunks of time smaller than that. As far as the existing playerbase is concerned, however, I don't see any issues as most of us probably already own everything for the factions we play.

That's already in place with ADR. There are two aspects associated with ADR, the Warcasters and the Theme. Champions events are restricted to both the Warcaster and Theme listed in the ADR, and you cannot duplicate either in the two lists you bring.

The problem is that Steamroller is the preferred format, not Champions.

Part of the problem is just that Champions is a little too limited, and thus far has been regularly derailed by one caster with no real counters that quickly stagnants the format. The idea is sound, but I think PP needs to shoot for a format more akin to Modern than Standard.

The problem with existing ADR though is that its a very limited game format thst basically isn't played much outside of certain big events, not tied to model availability/SKU rotation in any way, and even with the theme and caster restrictions still covers a very large range of models.

chaos0xomega wrote:The problem with existing ADR though is that its a very limited game format thst basically isn't played much outside of certain big events, not tied to model availability/SKU rotation in any way, and even with the theme and caster restrictions still covers a very large range of models.

The frequency of use is a choice by the organizers. The lack of limitation is what makes Steamroller the favored format.

Outside the mini-factions, limits the model available by the amount that would be suggested, outside the 'Jacks and Beasts. Of course, some Themes are more limited, like Skorne's Exalted, while some are quite expansive like Mercs' Irregulars. However, it is still an equivalent reduction of available models. Tying model availability to the ADR wouldn't be that difficult, after all.

LunarSol wrote:Part of the problem is just that Champions is a little too limited, and thus far has been regularly derailed by one caster with no real counters that quickly stagnants the format. The idea is sound, but I think PP needs to shoot for a format more akin to Modern than Standard.

It's still the basic concept and how it would operate, for all intents and purposes. All that would be needed was to expand the Caster/Lock list a little bit more to be equivalent.

I think the level of casual play at our game nights is so much more friendly than what the rest of you have run into. until this topic came up I had never even heard of steamroller or champions.

I knew people who were super big into the game back in MKI and II but I wasn't really into it until MKIII was just releasing. and even then I was playing based on the rule of cool. the minis I use are only based on how they look. it just turned out that they preform pretty good together. I also did not super invest into the game. all told I currently have 1 caster irusk II, 3 jacks, a gun carriage, 5 solos 1 attachment and a unit of 4 for a grand total of 15 miniatures. I may get 1 more drahkuun to replace the spriggan at 75 points but that's all I care to do with the force.

I also have the book for the iron kingdoms RPG, hopefully get to play that after our current run with infinity is up on the roleplaying side of things.

We've been cultivating a rather casual meta here in uptown Chicago, and picked up a few new players during last year's Journeyman league. It'll be interesting to see how energize/burnt out people are after Adepticon and ATC.

I personally think they should crop huge swathes of the model line with extreme prejudice, make Champions the standard "Modern" SR, and introduce a Legacy format like MTG. Run official events for both Modern and Legacy, with different structural prize incentives and support for each. I say this as someone who has been collecting since 2007. I'm fine with 80% of my collection becoming obsolete if it means the game will once again be competing with GW for shelfspace in a meaningful way. There's always IKRPG for using old models haha

 Bloviator wrote:
We've been cultivating a rather casual meta here in uptown Chicago, and picked up a few new players during last year's Journeyman league. It'll be interesting to see how energize/burnt out people are after Adepticon and ATC.

I personally think they should crop huge swathes of the model line with extreme prejudice, make Champions the standard "Modern" SR, and introduce a Legacy format like MTG. Run official events for both Modern and Legacy, with different structural prize incentives and support for each. I say this as someone who has been collecting since 2007. I'm fine with 80% of my collection becoming obsolete if it means the game will once again be competing with GW for shelfspace in a meaningful way. There's always IKRPG for using old models haha

Get rid of like, most of the Mercenary/Minion Solos, Get rid of old non epic castors and like, try to curb the bloat from big units and that solves alot of problems.

Alternatively, rebalance the entire game at once so that things aren't so hardcore rock, paper, and scissors.

I was about to try to steer this topic back on track, but we're kinda still discussing the "dying game" issue. In that, it's hard to be perceived as a vibrant active game when you can't bring in new players and keep them.

The reason it's not a dying game, but really could dwindle and die, is that there's just the hardcore left. Or there were, but even hardcore players are drifting away where there aren't active player groups, especially where Press Gangers no longer exist to promote it.

The hardcore groups and tournament scene will be pointed at by some as signs that the game isn't dying, and that's partially true, but on the other hand, it's not really thriving either. Much like GW games, while at their worst, were still around in a hardcore and tournaments scene. But, the rise of other games like Song of Ice and Fire to draw the non-GW crowd and the march of time will erode that audience to the point where PP must react or die.

Nibbler wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
I cannot go to a shop anywhere within several hundred kilometers of my location and buy warmachine miniatures any more, so I think that might be a pretty major problem. The EU is the worlds biggest single market, and it's richest, if you can't manage to keep your game in stock here then you are not really a big player any more.

AFAIK the comic shop in nuremberg city still sells WM/H stuff.
But it's definitely not as popular as it was some time ago. I still got a cupboard full of WM miniatures that I'm trying to sell, but there is not much interest in privateerpress products in germany anymore...

Nah, if anything is left it is a few clam packs. They put it all on half price, and I took advantage of that to get some Legion, Circle and Minion stuff, but it sold out pretty fast. It is all Dungeons and Dragons miniatures there now.

Runewars went the same way.

Ultra Comix is an awesome shop but they can be pretty ruthless when something is not selling.

 Bloviator wrote:

Although people have been speculating about the SKU death of the game since Superiority in Mk 1 (or even before, but I wasn't tracking), the game has persisted--and even thrived at times. However, we now live in an age of mass targeted media consumption, and people coming into contact with Warmachine might be dissuaded by these perceptions. The distributor woes, and some dude gakking the bed on GlassDoor last year didn't help either.

What can be done to reverse this perception?

The game thrived ten years ago for many reasons. It has declined massively since five years ago for many others. The old phrase 'there's no smoke without fire' comes to mind.

The real question is should people try to reverse this perception of a 'dying game' in the first place? I mean, if it is on the ropes, blatantly denying this or calling 'fake news' on it helps no one. Or should people be open and honest and be able to discuss the state of the game and the environment it is in?

Deadnight is right..

People can talk in a forum endlessly.. but personally what have you and the local tired to save it? If its a good game, people will feel like they should save it.

A few years back my life changed downward financially so there had to be a number of hobbies that ended up on the chopping block.

Warmahordes was one of them... Not looking back as a bad or good choice.. I did it with magic also..neither of them do I plan to return.

Locally I cant imagine it being anything but extremely healthy, the main stores in town carry it almost exclusively and it is far and away the most common game played. If I didn't have the internet I would think it was GW that was mostly out of business, haven't seen a game of 40k in a store played in years. and AoS only when I bring it myself. I think locality matters.

The remaining Warmahordes products are all in the clearance section of my flgs--50% off. Perhaps more telling is that most of those items have been there a very long time; they simply don't sell even at half off.

I think locality matters.

Definitely agree there. Would love to see a map with reports for each area. That would give the best data.

As it so happens last night I got a game in, but keeping with the afore mentioned issues some people have with caster kill I played a game with a newer player who hates that aspect so we played using the unbound rules-roughly 50 points(I had to use every single non jack/warcaster model, save the wardog, I had in my small collection), no jacks (unless you have a jack marshal). it was a learning curve since I was using a new unit and he has very few games in. it was fun and he is now planning to tweek his list a bit with his jack marshal/mechanic solo and single jack added to the mix for his crucible guard for our next game.

the guy who normally shows up who has all the objective markers was a no show so we just did a straight up battle.

it looked like this-







Also 3d terrain is awesome. it adds so much more immersion to the feel of the game. I will never use the official 2d terrain.

Get rid of like, most of the Mercenary/Minion Solos,

Also I love my gobber tionker merc solo...I don't want him to go away

Everyone wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die.

 greatbigtree wrote:
For myself, WMH is just a little too gimmicky. I'm not a big fan of stacking buff upon buff upon buff upon buff upon debuff… just *knowing* all the interactions is taxing.

I enjoy the game, but in a casual way. While I have no problems getting games, I don't care if it's Steamroller or by the book or whatever, I know I don't put as much effort into it as the other folks at the FLGS do, so I tend to get sideswiped pretty easily.

I'm also not into playing with felt pads for forests, or a popsicle stick for a wall... that's a big turn-off for me. I don't mind if minis are partly assembled, or unpainted, or even if the terrain is poorly made and falling apart... but if I wanted to play a 2d game I'd play a video game. I want the 3d element and it is unpopular in my (limited) experience.

I've said it before, but the game could be a fair bit more welcoming to new players, by simplifying the rules into more of a battle game, then skirmish game, and reducing the number of special rules / stacks. One or two buffs at a time is not so bad... 5 or more becomes silly.

Also, get rid of 1/2" measurements. 1" increments are granular enough. Base contact, 1", 2" for melee. Less focus on units blocking their own LOS from each other. Again, more of a battle game than a skirmish.

These are reasons why I got out of warmachine. That and the "if you don't know what opponent's units do inside out some nasty surprise screws you" habit. And with all the units even in early MK2(during which I bowed out)...Ugh. I simply wasn't able to keep up with irregular games here and there plus odd tournament once in a while. Even after 2 years nearly every game yet another new combo appeared that killed my warlord middle of my army or something equally silly.

Boards with their flat 2d terrain also is major turn on.

I can see why some people like it and with similar minded people I'm sure I could enjoy WM but the kind of players here that play it are looking for completely different type of game than I am. Which is fair enough obviously. I'm not claiming they have to change what they play for my sake But I know not to bang my head to the game and ruin enjoyment of their game as well as waste my time.

 LunarSol wrote:
That, and they need some serious rebundling of old SKUs. There's zero reason by this point not to have faction support packs that contain say.... Krielstone/Runebearer/Whelps or Choir/Vassals/Wracks and the like. Yes, technically Choir are FA:2. Probably a good time to change that.

Sort of like what Wyrd did with their third edition of Malifaux?

Death Marshal Recruiters, Domadores de Cadaveres and The Jury were all separate SKU's, but have now been rolled into the Wake the Dead-box. Of course, Malifaux also added a hard cap to models on top of all that, so you'll never need to buy more than one box, which might be an issue for PP.

 Mangod wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
That, and they need some serious rebundling of old SKUs. There's zero reason by this point not to have faction support packs that contain say.... Krielstone/Runebearer/Whelps or Choir/Vassals/Wracks and the like. Yes, technically Choir are FA:2. Probably a good time to change that.

Sort of like what Wyrd did with their third edition of Malifaux?

Death Marshal Recruiters, Domadores de Cadaveres and The Jury were all separate SKU's, but have now been rolled into the Wake the Dead-box. Of course, Malifaux also added a hard cap to models on top of all that, so you'll never need to buy more than one box, which might be an issue for PP.

That would go against their theme...theme though. Its also one of the things that really put me off WMH. I don't really want to buy three units of iron fang pikemen for one list that don't fit in anywhere else, especially not at how much PP charge for them. I really liked "open" lists and finding unexpected synergies amd combos, themes basically killed that. I know they changed it recently but its too little too late. I almost bought into Grymkin when they came out and I'm so glad I didn't because I've played maybe one game since their release.

WMH has died out here mostly. The only players now are in Dublin but the main shop has stopped stocking it. Its really a bunch of factors that lead to WMH to be considered as "dying".

A YouTube guy called MrMalorian brought up an interesting idea based off of Magic's Command style games. He called it Teethblender.



I don't know how well it will fly in metas which are too serious, but maybe it would make a crack?

On 2/5, War Room will no longer support pre-Oblivion theme forces. Army lists using these older, invalid themes will be deleted at that time. Re-create favorite lists using the new Oblivion themes available now. Also, online multiplayer functionality will no longer be supported. pic.twitter.com/KTn8zS0CSX

— Privateer Press (@privateerpress) February 4, 2020