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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Gadzilla666 wrote:

But doesn't that mean the problem is space marines and not fw? Limiting interaction in the way suggested would nerf fw units for chaos and xenos factions as well. Most of those units aren't remotely useful. Why should all factions be punished because of one?

Some solutions are simple. Make de more expensive or change the wording on either it or the leviathan so they don't interact. Send ven chappie dreads to legends. It's oop after all. And errata some of the most egregious sm rules.


Yes. And no. I agree with both sides here, but I'm trying to be pragmatic about the situation.

Based on the games I've played the SM roll lots of CP and will gladly pay increased costs to still run those abilities.

I'm tempering my expectations on what will actually come out of these FW re-writes. A lot of people seem to expect datasheet changes when likely there will be few of those. Mostly it will be points and hopefully properly formatted sheets. And points won't solve Levis et al without hurting other factions using them.

   
Made in au
Stalwart Strike Squad Grey Knight





All Vortimer patterned vehicles for Grey Knights are way overcosted. 1 psycannon for infantry costs 7 points. The heavy psycannon costs 24 points. So how does the Twin-psycannon mounted guns cost a straight up 50 points!?

FW needs to upgrade all the twin-psycannons to Twin- HEAVY Psycannons. That way they can actually have an impressive use on the table. What's the point of mounting twin guns on unique GK vehicles that can be already delivered by PA infantry for only 28% of the cost ( 14 points vs 50 points)..?!

 
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

BrainFireBob wrote:
CSM don't have a complete line without FW- I suspect a design decision around 2012 or so.

SMs have the Storm raven, talon, and hawk.

CSMs have the Heldrake.

SMs have the Whirlwind, TFC, Stalker, and Hunter for artillery/anti air.

Chaos has crickets.

Now, there are other advantages Chaos has- Oblits are better than DevCents, though comparable.

This post is nit a whinefest! But a lot of FW is *alternatives* for SMs, but *singular options* for CSMs.

Add that there aren't the chapter tactic synergies, and I too worry. The closest answer Chaos has to a Dread is a Helbrute, to the Ven Dread is the same Helbrute, to an Ironclad is a melee Helbrute, and to a Redemptor is...a Contemptor.

EDIT: To be clear, the scorpius, the sicaran, the xiphon, helblade, heltalon, fire raptor, stormeagle, dreadclaw, termite, and contemptors fill holes in the CSM range. Anti-air/skimmer, flying transport, artillery (indirect fire), drop pod, and ven dread/upgraded dread. Other items are nice, but not gaps.

Exactly. Well said.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:

But doesn't that mean the problem is space marines and not fw? Limiting interaction in the way suggested would nerf fw units for chaos and xenos factions as well. Most of those units aren't remotely useful. Why should all factions be punished because of one?

Some solutions are simple. Make de more expensive or change the wording on either it or the leviathan so they don't interact. Send ven chappie dreads to legends. It's oop after all. And errata some of the most egregious sm rules.


Yes. And no. I agree with both sides here, but I'm trying to be pragmatic about the situation.

Based on the games I've played the SM roll lots of CP and will gladly pay increased costs to still run those abilities.

I'm tempering my expectations on what will actually come out of these FW re-writes. A lot of people seem to expect datasheet changes when likely there will be few of those. Mostly it will be points and hopefully properly formatted sheets. And points won't solve Levis et al without hurting other factions using them.


I agree that's probably what we'll get. And it won't slow down sm. The spring faq is the only way gw is slowing them down.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/17 05:59:45


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Argive wrote:
I think you guys are forgetting decimators


It'd be great if it was BS2 and had any reasonable weapons (i'm not suggesting they change it). 210 with two Petards. Or 140 with 2 Butcher cannons that are only 36" and suffer move penalties. I don't know why I'd pay 90 for it instead of a contempter that is 2 points less with BS2 and 2 extra wounds.

And it still wouldn't have any strong interactions with codexes -- though a small case for Iron Warriors WL Traits could be made, but nothing like marines.
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






The SM line more than any other is completely bloated with options. Not just in the number of units but in the options those units can bring. They need a VAST culling of units and wargear. Not just trimming the fat off FW units but codex units and wargear as well.

Retiring all old marines for primaris only can't come soon enough.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Argive wrote:
I think you guys are forgetting decimators


It'd be great if it was BS2 and had any reasonable weapons (i'm not suggesting they change it). 210 with two Petards. Or 140 with 2 Butcher cannons that are only 36" and suffer move penalties. I don't know why I'd pay 90 for it instead of a contempter that is 2 points less with BS2 and 2 extra wounds.

And it still wouldn't have any strong interactions with codexes -- though a small case for Iron Warriors WL Traits could be made, but nothing like marines.

Depends on the legion. Mine can charge after falling back (hit and run), get +1 to hit anything with lower leadership (prey on the weak), or, best of all, shut down auras (vox scream). Flay them alive works too, but that's super situational.

Losing vox scream on any unit, especially hell blades would hurt against marines. Anything within 18 of a chapter master needs to scream that fether down.
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





The issue is with the decimator that it lost it's Reanimation rule.
But still pays for it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/17 06:49:28


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Not Online!!! wrote:
The issue is with the decimator that it lost it's Reanimation rule.
But still pays for it.

Same with the hellforged. Originally they could be repaired as long as they hadn't gained back wounds with machine malifica on the same turn. It was errated because that was apparently OP.
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Gadzilla666 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
The issue is with the decimator that it lost it's Reanimation rule.
But still pays for it.

Same with the hellforged. Originally they could be repaired as long as they hadn't gained back wounds with machine malifica on the same turn. It was errated because that was apparently OP.


Meh, the old decimator could come back from the dead.

Also the petard is overpriced for a pieces of Equipment that is able to destroy the decimator within 5 turns itself and it is huge for it's Profile making hiding more or less an absolute nope Option for it.

Also it lost it's marks for the daemon within aswell,which were necessary to Make it work propperly.
It can't get traits because of course and it's weaponry is overpriced in general ( all say how good the butchers are, they aren't, they are 5 pts more for less range and a morale gimmick over the hades autocannon on regular daemonengines, the reason the butcher is ok is because it is in General on units that actually can discern where the End of the Barells points. But gw couldn't be bothered to realize this and when they finnally did their attempt at fixing it in Form of the Lord discordant adding 1+ for daemonengines they failed to realize, that they created just another forward daemonengine and not the shooting Support it should've been.)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/02/17 07:54:45


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Lance845 wrote:
The SM line more than any other is completely bloated with options. Not just in the number of units but in the options those units can bring. They need a VAST culling of units and wargear. Not just trimming the fat off FW units but codex units and wargear as well.

Retiring all old marines for primaris only can't come soon enough.
The Forge World SM line though?

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in fr
Regular Dakkanaut




My hopes for FW "new" indexes :

1) Everything that is OOP goes to Legends.

2) The rest becomes so overpriced you can only play it in narrative games.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrainFireBob wrote:
CSM don't have a complete line without FW- I suspect a design decision around 2012 or so.

SMs have the Storm raven, talon, and hawk.

CSMs have the Heldrake.

SMs have the Whirlwind, TFC, Stalker, and Hunter for artillery/anti air.

Chaos has crickets.

Now, there are other advantages Chaos has- Oblits are better than DevCents, though comparable.

This post is nit a whinefest! But a lot of FW is *alternatives* for SMs, but *singular options* for CSMs.

Add that there aren't the chapter tactic synergies, and I too worry. The closest answer Chaos has to a Dread is a Helbrute, to the Ven Dread is the same Helbrute, to an Ironclad is a melee Helbrute, and to a Redemptor is...a Contemptor.

EDIT: To be clear, the scorpius, the sicaran, the xiphon, helblade, heltalon, fire raptor, stormeagle, dreadclaw, termite, and contemptors fill holes in the CSM range. Anti-air/skimmer, flying transport, artillery (indirect fire), drop pod, and ven dread/upgraded dread. Other items are nice, but not gaps.


Let me translate your message :

"I want to play loyalist SM but with spikes !"

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/02/17 09:31:56


 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





how about you calm down selfcontroll.

Then again you have shown on multiple points that you are everything but reasonable and just envious.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





What id be happy with for my Krieg:

-Actual Doctrines, Currently not having any isn't the end of the world now with PA out but still would be nice to have some Krieg Specific ones.
-Krieg Engineers being able to take the Hades Breaching Drill, FW screwed up big time and I hope GW doesn't follow suit
-Some minor tweaks such as letting our Tank Commanders being able to take the Mars Alpha Pattern Hull
-Points fix to match current IG but I don't know if that will happen what with the recent Point fixes.

Now what I wish would happen but I don't see it happening:

-Krieg Specific Stratagems and Relics, would be awesome to be able to use a Stratagem to boost a Bayonet Charge and have a Relic Shovel
-Death Riders can be taken as Troops

19th Krieg Siege Army 7500pts.
40k/HH Night Lords 5000pts.
Orks Waaaghmacht Spearhead 2500pts.
 
   
Made in de
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle





Selfcontrol wrote:
My hopes for FW "new" indexes :

1) Everything that is OOP goes to Legends.

2) The rest becomes so overpriced you can only play it in narrative games.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrainFireBob wrote:
CSM don't have a complete line without FW- I suspect a design decision around 2012 or so.

SMs have the Storm raven, talon, and hawk.

CSMs have the Heldrake.

SMs have the Whirlwind, TFC, Stalker, and Hunter for artillery/anti air.

Chaos has crickets.

Now, there are other advantages Chaos has- Oblits are better than DevCents, though comparable.

This post is nit a whinefest! But a lot of FW is *alternatives* for SMs, but *singular options* for CSMs.

Add that there aren't the chapter tactic synergies, and I too worry. The closest answer Chaos has to a Dread is a Helbrute, to the Ven Dread is the same Helbrute, to an Ironclad is a melee Helbrute, and to a Redemptor is...a Contemptor.

EDIT: To be clear, the scorpius, the sicaran, the xiphon, helblade, heltalon, fire raptor, stormeagle, dreadclaw, termite, and contemptors fill holes in the CSM range. Anti-air/skimmer, flying transport, artillery (indirect fire), drop pod, and ven dread/upgraded dread. Other items are nice, but not gaps.


Let me translate your message :

"I want to play loyalist SM but with spikes !"


Yeah, well, whatever your army is, I want it to become overpriced as well, Troll.
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
The SM line more than any other is completely bloated with options. Not just in the number of units but in the options those units can bring. They need a VAST culling of units and wargear. Not just trimming the fat off FW units but codex units and wargear as well.

Retiring all old marines for primaris only can't come soon enough.
The Forge World SM line though?


All the various types of dread are gone once it's all primaris. Making it a librarian in a dread or a chaplain in a dread or whatever should be a small points upgrade to a regular dread on the same single datasheet as the regular dread. And that is going to be a redemptor dread. The sheer volume of weapon options that come from FW are a problem. It's not like SM don't already have more weapon options then just about everybody else. But hey, lets start churring out even more of them so that despite having 6 different options for this one model per arm there are only 2 worth taking.

Yes, the FW line AND the codex line needs massive cut backs.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/17 16:07:58



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought




San Jose, CA

Sounds boring
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Argive wrote:
I think you guys are forgetting decimators

Which are just Contemptors with worse stats and the Daemon keyword.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol




Manchester, UK

 gmaleron wrote:
-Some minor tweaks such as letting our Tank Commanders being able to take the Mars Alpha Pattern Hull
-Points fix to match current IG but I don't know if that will happen what with the recent Point fixes.


I also want them to fix the Leman Russ problem. Tank commanders should be able to take all variants, including Mars Alpha, and all of the costs should be right.

I'd also love the old Vanquisher rules to return, where it could choose what shell to fire.

Lastly, reduce the Vulture cost. 205 points is just too much for it. 185 was expensive but not stupid-expensive. The punisher russ gets so much more with doctrines, buffs, and tank commanders. Yet it is significantly cheaper.

The Tvashtan 422nd "Fire Leopards" - Updated 19/03/11

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor 
   
Made in us
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

The Vanquisher needs a functional weapon in general, when the dedicated tank hunter is about as effective at killing tanks as the dedicated anti infantry variant, something is clearly wrong.

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






Racerguy180 wrote:
Sounds boring


It sounds reasonable. What the hell is the point in having 40 options if only 2 of them are viable?


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol




Manchester, UK

 Vaktathi wrote:
The Vanquisher needs a functional weapon in general, when the dedicated tank hunter is about as effective at killing tanks as the dedicated anti infantry variant, something is clearly wrong.


But for a short, glorious time we had beast-hunter shells. I remember a game of armoured battle group vs tyranids where all of the big bugs just tried to hide from my command tank.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/17 19:34:45


The Tvashtan 422nd "Fire Leopards" - Updated 19/03/11

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Lance845 wrote:
Racerguy180 wrote:
Sounds boring


It sounds reasonable. What the hell is the point in having 40 options if only 2 of them are viable?

Exactly. Options only matter when they make sense. Can you honestly say you'd use a Power Maul for any reason? If they just disappeared as an option you'd just use them as Power Axes. Hell, who cried upon the loss of Power Lance's? Nobody!

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Well once upon a time Vanquishers could switch between AT and AP shells. If it could do that again it would suck a lot less.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in gb
Walking Dead Wraithlord






Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Argive wrote:
I think you guys are forgetting decimators

Which are just Contemptors with worse stats and the Daemon keyword.


And no different wargear options?
Thought they had those soulblight MW cannons.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

Eldar- 4436 pts


AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


"A warrior does not seek fame and honour. They come to him as he humbly follows his path"  
   
Made in gb
Horrific Hive Tyrant





 Argive wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Argive wrote:
I think you guys are forgetting decimators

Which are just Contemptors with worse stats and the Daemon keyword.


And no different wargear options?
Thought they had those soulblight MW cannons.


Contemptors can take Soul Burners too.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

Selfcontrol wrote:
My hopes for FW "new" indexes :

1) Everything that is OOP goes to Legends.

2) The rest becomes so overpriced you can only play it in narrative games.



Let me translate your message :

"I want to play loyalist SM but with spikes !"
I can understand wanting OOP stuff to go to Legends. I can also understand you saying "There's no way GW will price them right, so they should err on too expensive rather than too cheap."

But why wouldn't you want balanced units? Why would you WANT overpriced units?

And no, I believe they just want to have an army that can cover all forms of warfare-like SM are supposed to be able to do. Hell, CSM don't have any sniper units! You can make a decent sniper with a Warlord Trait and Relic, and while the Relic is technically not required, the Warlord trait literally is. Whereas Space Marines get the arguably best snipers in the game, Eliminators, and can even take snipers as troops!

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in gb
Walking Dead Wraithlord






 Stux wrote:
 Argive wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Argive wrote:
I think you guys are forgetting decimators

Which are just Contemptors with worse stats and the Daemon keyword.


And no different wargear options?
Thought they had those soulblight MW cannons.


Contemptors can take Soul Burners too.


Do they also benefit from new powers and disco lords ?

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

Eldar- 4436 pts


AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


"A warrior does not seek fame and honour. They come to him as he humbly follows his path"  
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Argive wrote:
 Stux wrote:
 Argive wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Argive wrote:
I think you guys are forgetting decimators

Which are just Contemptors with worse stats and the Daemon keyword.


And no different wargear options?
Thought they had those soulblight MW cannons.


Contemptors can take Soul Burners too.


Do they also benefit from new powers and disco lords ?

DiscoLords benefit Maulerfiends a bit more with how much both units cost.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Argive wrote:
 Stux wrote:
 Argive wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Argive wrote:
I think you guys are forgetting decimators

Which are just Contemptors with worse stats and the Daemon keyword.


And no different wargear options?
Thought they had those soulblight MW cannons.


Contemptors can take Soul Burners too.


Do they also benefit from new powers and disco lords ?

DiscoLords benefit Maulerfiends a bit more with how much both units cost.

Maybe. But maulerfiends and the other dinobots are fething eyesores. Same with the klos. Why would you prefer it over the hellforged super heavys if they had sane prices?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Selfcontrol wrote:
My hopes for FW "new" indexes :

1) Everything that is OOP goes to Legends.

2) The rest becomes so overpriced you can only play it in narrative games.



Let me translate your message :

"I want to play loyalist SM but with spikes !"
I can understand wanting OOP stuff to go to Legends. I can also understand you saying "There's no way GW will price them right, so they should err on too expensive rather than too cheap."

But why wouldn't you want balanced units? Why would you WANT overpriced units?

And no, I believe they just want to have an army that can cover all forms of warfare-like SM are supposed to be able to do. Hell, CSM don't have any sniper units! You can make a decent sniper with a Warlord Trait and Relic, and while the Relic is technically not required, the Warlord trait literally is. Whereas Space Marines get the arguably best snipers in the game, Eliminators, and can even take snipers as troops!

Exactly. Loyalists have the most diverse and complete selection of units of any codex. The legions aren't even close. We need fw units to even the playing field.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/18 02:39:38


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Biloxi, MS USA

 Stux wrote:
 Argive wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Argive wrote:
I think you guys are forgetting decimators

Which are just Contemptors with worse stats and the Daemon keyword.


And no different wargear options?
Thought they had those soulblight MW cannons.


Contemptors can take Soul Burners too.


Yes, but at half the shots.

You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie
The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was 
   
 
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