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By the way, I was complaining monocodex wise, not soup.

Really like the new Ad Mech units especially the flyer.

 ierp wrote:
By the way, I was complaining monocodex wise, not soup.

To be fair until marine dex 2.0 aka power leap, no-mono faction was the most powerful build for any codex that wasn't locked into mono codex.
But the psychic powers for 8th edition still need work they either jump from meh, to have a free action or instant mortal wounds all for the same cost.


I'm really hoping that knights get something to take away the need to take the 32 or 17 just to make the codex actually functional.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Really like the new Ad Mech units especially the flyer.

Morden, you and I actually agree.

I like the weird/pulpy Mars take. But I recognize that may not be a popular opinion.

Ice_can wrote:

 ierp wrote:
By the way, I was complaining monocodex wise, not soup.

To be fair until marine dex 2.0 aka power leap, no-mono faction was the most powerful build for any codex that wasn't locked into mono codex.
But the psychic powers for 8th edition still need work they either jump from meh, to have a free action or instant mortal wounds all for the same cost.

The old thread got canned due to talking about irrelevant dross like the above, move to another thread.

Sterylizors, isn't that a rejected Starrior's name from the 80's?

 ierp wrote:
Look at the legion trait "Locus of Trickery", it is litteraly unplayable.

I can't believe I forgot about this, and it's one of the biggest reasons I haven't played Tzeentch Daemons much. Their locus sucks. Of the four loci in the book, Tzeentch's is the only one with a chance to just not have any effect, and the only one that works in the one position the army DOESN'T want to be in.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 ierp wrote:
Look at the legion trait "Locus of Trickery", it is litteraly unplayable.

I can't believe I forgot about this, and it's one of the biggest reasons I haven't played Tzeentch Daemons much. Their locus sucks. Of the four loci in the book, Tzeentch's is the only one with a chance to just not have any effect, and the only one that works in the one position the army DOESN'T want to be in.

sounds very Tzeentch, they giveth & taketh away.



but no excuse for it

Is it just me or are all the pics in the OP broken?

Work for me

 dan2026 wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 ierp wrote:
Would be cool if the PA helps daemons stop being the worst army by far for all the V8...

God, look at the crapy Tzeentch psychic powers. Look at the legion trait "Locus of Trickery", it is litteraly unplayable. Daemons are utter gak. They even flee and the morale rule in V8 punish the verry essence of daemons ; playing big blob of infantery.

Daemons are far and away superior to many other armies such as Ynnari and were actually the top dog for quite a while in early 8th.

Yeah but did any competitive list ever use Greater Daemons?

Despite all the complaining about Daemons - I believe a mono-Slaanesh Daemons player won a tournament with a 3 Keepers list. I just participated in a GT and went 3/5, ending in 14th place out of 28 or 32 people (forget exactly haha - got a little wonky thanks to Corona). I had 1 Keeper and 1 Shalaxi. So I did better than people that, on paper, are supposed to do better than me.

Regardless - I am looking forward to Daemons rules. We're either going to get awesome stuff like Blood Points and Pleasure from Pain points for Khorne/Slaanesh as as an example - or it's going to be a couple lame strategems and a name generator. Obviously hoping for the former. I just want more flavor that makes them more... Daemonic? haha

 ArmchairArbiter wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 ierp wrote:
Would be cool if the PA helps daemons stop being the worst army by far for all the V8...

God, look at the crapy Tzeentch psychic powers. Look at the legion trait "Locus of Trickery", it is litteraly unplayable. Daemons are utter gak. They even flee and the morale rule in V8 punish the verry essence of daemons ; playing big blob of infantery.

Daemons are far and away superior to many other armies such as Ynnari and were actually the top dog for quite a while in early 8th.

Yeah but did any competitive list ever use Greater Daemons?

Despite all the complaining about Daemons - I believe a mono-Slaanesh Daemons player won a tournament with a 3 Keepers list. I just participated in a GT and went 3/5, ending in 14th place out of 28 or 32 people (forget exactly haha - got a little wonky thanks to Corona). I had 1 Keeper and 1 Shalaxi. So I did better than people that, on paper, are supposed to do better than me.

Regardless - I am looking forward to Daemons rules. We're either going to get awesome stuff like Blood Points and Pleasure from Pain points for Khorne/Slaanesh as as an example - or it's going to be a couple lame strategems and a name generator. Obviously hoping for the former. I just want more flavor that makes them more... Daemonic? haha

Indeed. Depravity points like AoS is certainly a mechanic I would like to be a thing in 40k.
More tables like the 7th edition codex would be great, daemonic mount for herald being back would be great also.

Please no not the random gear tables again.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Is it just me or are all the pics in the OP broken?

They're not loading for me by default, but if I right-click them in Chrome and hit the "Loan image" option, then they load, which is odd.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Please no not the random gear tables again.

Pfft you aren't having fun if you aren't rolling for everything!

I thought the random tables were nice and chaosy but they definitely needed a choose option for people who didn't want the faff.

I'd be fine with tables if they're like a lot of other similar tables are now in 8th - you can pick any option you want or roll. Spending several minute pre-game rolling up all your Rewards (and Psychic powers) was a hassle.

They cant fix it now, but I wish they didnt make the Blood Thirster so small, or rather, make the other Greater Daemons so much bigger. Blood Thirsters are freaking TINY. Even a LoC is bigger and looks more muscular than a BT.

What I want to see is Daemons statlines be more "realistic" Bloodletters used to be T4, and they should be T4 again. I believe they also had two attacks each? Regardless, in 6th Edition Bloodletters were actually dangerous without needing to make them a "Bomb" unit.

At the moment, Daemons have such un-fluffy stats. If you disregard the fact Daemons are used almost litteraly only as punching bags by authors, they should be more powerful. Skulltaker has like 3 or 4 attacks, while a generic marine captain has 4 for example.

Daemons, atleast the lesser ones, need a slight buff. Bloodletters should get either +1A or T, Flesh Hounds should get +A and so should Heralds of Khorne.

Tbf I dont know much about the other Gods' Daemons so I cant say, but Plague Bearers should probably also be S4 so they and BLs Are closer to Space Marines than Guardsmen in stats

why should plague bearers be s4? Are they supposed to be as strong as a marine? I understand the toughness but strength?

Daemons have clearly become more of a horde army, in both 40k and AoS. Individually, all the basic ones are pretty weak. Its is disappointing.

Even worse, the big boy daemons are not on par with the heroes of other factions. Not even close.

I guess new strategies, wargear and chapter tactics could make them work, but it seems like a whole rewrite of a codex really.

I think the fact that they are stuck as a soup compound makes altering their abilities and use difficult unless they get single-faction bonuses like the marines did.

Don't forget that locus of trickery is near useless with all the dice reroll that exists in 8th ed.

For instance against marines : roll two dice, take the tiniest. If you get one, you are fethed because 1) one is always a fail 2) the rule apply after rerolls so if your enemy has an aura, he can dodge the locus. If you get a two, you are also fethed because marines without modifiers fail on 2. Therefore, rolling a one or two makes your whole legion trait 100% useless.

Last but not least, Tzeentch armies don't give a damn about the fight phase wich they shouldn't be stuck in the first place.

Now, let's talk about the psychic phase. oh do not get me started on this. 8th are unfriendly to heavy psykers armies. Unlike the 1Ksons, you have a diminushing returns on your smite. Like all the psyker in 40k, you can't cast twice the same spell, but moreover, you can't ATTEMPT to cast twice. So : you have three usesful spells in your discipline that you may or might fail one. Therefore, you shouldn't play heavy on psyker despite the fact it would be cool fluffwise. Not that, for the last part it also affects the other armies, but it's a pain for an army that relies on psykers. As a Space Marines player, you don't mind failing your psychic because in the vast majority of builds, you don't have more than one or two that won't cast twice the same spell anyway. But in 1K sons or in tzeentch daemons, you might have much more psykers but can't use them.

Now thinks about how it helps a lot for denying the witch. With your enemy not being able to try multiple cast attempt of psychic power, one psyker able to deny one or two powers is sufficient enough. If you fail your deny the witch, it doesn't change that you have more than one psycher. If you sucess in denying the psychic power, you don't mind player's other psyker because 1) they can't attempt to cast the power you have just denied 2) they have a shortlist of 2 or 3 useful power meaning that they have already keep their deny for the useful one, leting you freely cast some trash spell like Boon of Change or Treazon of Tzeentch.

And voila I am very salty about the daemons treatment in 8th, especially Tzeentch. Sorry if I was a bit off topic on the last part about the psy phase but I think PA could arrange that by giving us more spells and/or ending the smite's tax.

 drazz wrote:
Daemons have clearly become more of a horde army, in both 40k and AoS. Individually, all the basic ones are pretty weak. Its is disappointing.

I don’t think it was intended, but it kind of makes sense. A horde of demons would be spilling out of a rift and would be easily sustained and in powered by the warp. While a single demon would have to squeeze through a hole and not be able to be supported by the warp. The greater demons should get a sort of inverse aura, the more follower around them the more powerful they become.

Smaug wrote:

 drazz wrote:
Daemons have clearly become more of a horde army, in both 40k and AoS. Individually, all the basic ones are pretty weak. Its is disappointing.

I don’t think it was intended, but it kind of makes sense. A horde of demons would be spilling out of a rift and would be easily sustained and in powered by the warp. While a single demon would have to squeeze through a hole and not be able to be supported by the warp. The greater demons should get a sort of inverse aura, the more follower around them the more powerful they become.

This would be a really cool mechanic but it would need to have some sort of possible downside to make the risk/reward actually risky.

Racerguy180 wrote:

Smaug wrote:

 drazz wrote:
Daemons have clearly become more of a horde army, in both 40k and AoS. Individually, all the basic ones are pretty weak. Its is disappointing.

I don’t think it was intended, but it kind of makes sense. A horde of demons would be spilling out of a rift and would be easily sustained and in powered by the warp. While a single demon would have to squeeze through a hole and not be able to be supported by the warp. The greater demons should get a sort of inverse aura, the more follower around them the more powerful they become.

This would be a really cool mechanic but it would need to have some sort of possible downside to make the risk/reward actually risky.

The daemon troop units (bar horrors) all get a significant buff at 20+ models in AoS. Maybe we will see it here.

I agree, what daemons need is a new codex. There are so many issues. Four factions sharing engine war, mean less pages for each faction. I expect admech to get half of the book, because of all the new models, which have been announced.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:

Smaug wrote:

 drazz wrote:
Daemons have clearly become more of a horde army, in both 40k and AoS. Individually, all the basic ones are pretty weak. Its is disappointing.

I don’t think it was intended, but it kind of makes sense. A horde of demons would be spilling out of a rift and would be easily sustained and in powered by the warp. While a single demon would have to squeeze through a hole and not be able to be supported by the warp. The greater demons should get a sort of inverse aura, the more follower around them the more powerful they become.

This would be a really cool mechanic but it would need to have some sort of possible downside to make the risk/reward actually risky.

The daemon troop units (bar horrors) all get a significant buff at 20+ models in AoS. Maybe we will see it here.

They already do, blood letters and daemonettes get an extra attack, horrors get an extra shot and plaguebearers get a -1 to hit.

Dudeface wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:

Smaug wrote:

 drazz wrote:
Daemons have clearly become more of a horde army, in both 40k and AoS. Individually, all the basic ones are pretty weak. Its is disappointing.

I don’t think it was intended, but it kind of makes sense. A horde of demons would be spilling out of a rift and would be easily sustained and in powered by the warp. While a single demon would have to squeeze through a hole and not be able to be supported by the warp. The greater demons should get a sort of inverse aura, the more follower around them the more powerful they become.

This would be a really cool mechanic but it would need to have some sort of possible downside to make the risk/reward actually risky.

The daemon troop units (bar horrors) all get a significant buff at 20+ models in AoS. Maybe we will see it here.

They already do, blood letters and daemonettes get an extra attack, horrors get an extra shot and plaguebearers get a -1 to hit.

I was referring back to drazz’s comment about greater daemons not on par with the heroes of other factions and as a way to give them a buff. Didn’t the demonic instability rule in one of the previous editions work like this? Do you think the risk of having commit so much of your army to support a GD is worth the reward of having a murder ball that can be out flanked and you the possibility of being tabled?

Do we think GW will still release Engine War as an online purchase on its regular schedule?

magic 8-ball says....maybe

Well, they're still selling ebooks, including Saga of the Beast, so I'd say it's a strong possibility.

Dudeface wrote:

They already do, blood letters and daemonettes get an extra attack, horrors get an extra shot and plaguebearers get a -1 to hit.

See, what they *should* do? Remove the +1 Attack from the Demonette and instead give them "May not be targeted by Overwatch".

Now each one has their own thing.

Khorne hits more in close combat.
Tzeentch hangs back and blasts.
Slaanesh plays with your emotions.
Nurgle gets plague and flies.

Taa daa!