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I'm not sure if GW is trying to covertly ban non BF armies now by simply nerfing them so hard no one will use them. Is that the intent?

Did...anyone actually try to play an unbound army competitively? Cause I feel like thats not actually a thing.

Lol. For once that may be design working as intended.

They actually improved, matched play used to require a battleforged army, now they just start with 0 cp.

Dudeface wrote:
They actually improved, matched play used to require a battleforged army, now they just start with 0 cp.

This.

In Matched Play its actually less restrictive than 8e.

It's clear that GW things battleforged armies are the intended way to play if you want something approaching a fair or balanced experience.

If you are wanting to do something more narrative for a battle and battle forged gets in the way, just talk to your opponent and figure something out.

Sterling191 wrote:
Did...anyone actually try to play an unbound army competitively? Cause I feel like thats not actually a thing.

If someone came back to the game after playing a taudar mixed list in 6th? (It’s been a while, I forget exactly when that was a thing) I could see this being a relevant question.

But no. This is GW’s way of saying “We’re not going to tell you that you must play a battle forged list, but it’s the way we designed the game.”

Wasn't unbound more of an open play thing?

I however am curious if they will make it obligatory at tournaments. I play Guard infantry, and honestly, my command points don't really do much for me. At most, they're used to save a plasma gunner from blowing himself up.

 Dolnikan wrote:
I however am curious if they will make it obligatory at tournaments. I play Guard infantry, and honestly, my command points don't really do much for me. At most, they're used to save a plasma gunner from blowing himself up.

You should take a look at the stratagems then, as there are still some relevant to you even if you're running infantry lists.

Something to note - you can still run a Battle-Forged army if your different sub-factions are in different detachments, as long as they share an overall faction keyword.
So for example, if I want to run a Marines brigade alongside a Sisters patrol, that's still Battle-Forged as they all share the Imperial keyword. Or for another example, Death Guard and Slaanesh Daemons all have the Chaos keyword. That way you still get Command Points, and the Stratagems are worded in order to prevent you abusing them cross-faction.

Also, of course, this all applies from the Matched Play rules... if you're having a friendly game, there's nothing to stop you from technically running a game as Open Play, and simply saying "we both get 6CP to play with despite both being Unbound". You just have to agree to it beforehand.

 Matt Swain wrote:
I'm not sure if GW is trying to covertly ban non BF armies now by simply nerfing them so hard no one will use them. Is that the intent?

Wow, it's cool to meet the only person in the world who cares about that.

 Super Ready wrote:
Something to note - you can still run a Battle-Forged army if your different sub-factions are in different detachments, as long as they share an overall faction keyword.
So for example, if I want to run a Marines brigade alongside a Sisters patrol, that's still Battle-Forged as they all share the Imperial keyword. Or for another example, Death Guard and Slaanesh Daemons all have the Chaos keyword. That way you still get Command Points, and the Stratagems are worded in order to prevent you abusing them cross-faction.

Also, of course, this all applies from the Matched Play rules... if you're having a friendly game, there's nothing to stop you from technically running a game as Open Play, and simply saying "we both get 6CP to play with despite both being Unbound". You just have to agree to it beforehand.

Wait, isn't there something about not being able to use IMPERIUM, CHAOS, AELDARI, or TYYRANID as your army keywords?

It is a little odd. Battle forged just requires a shared faction, that can be from across the higher entities like 'Imperium'.

Matched play, however, specifies that the ones you mention cannot be used as the faction. So that is matched play specific.

So whether battle forged can use Imperium etc is based on whether you play matched or crusade etc. Battle forged is not a matched play mechanic itself.

 Blndmage wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
Something to note - you can still run a Battle-Forged army if your different sub-factions are in different detachments, as long as they share an overall faction keyword.
So for example, if I want to run a Marines brigade alongside a Sisters patrol, that's still Battle-Forged as they all share the Imperial keyword. Or for another example, Death Guard and Slaanesh Daemons all have the Chaos keyword. That way you still get Command Points, and the Stratagems are worded in order to prevent you abusing them cross-faction.

Also, of course, this all applies from the Matched Play rules... if you're having a friendly game, there's nothing to stop you from technically running a game as Open Play, and simply saying "we both get 6CP to play with despite both being Unbound". You just have to agree to it beforehand.

Wait, isn't there something about not being able to use IMPERIUM, CHAOS, AELDARI, or TYYRANID as your army keywords?

Thats only for in the same detachment that everything needs to have 1 keyword in common (excluding the ones you listed).

For an army to be battleforged, every detachments need to have a keyword in common (basically always the ones you listed + orks/necrons/tau)

nekooni wrote:

 Dolnikan wrote:
I however am curious if they will make it obligatory at tournaments. I play Guard infantry, and honestly, my command points don't really do much for me. At most, they're used to save a plasma gunner from blowing himself up.

You should take a look at the stratagems then, as there are still some relevant to you even if you're running infantry lists.

There indeed are some that see some use, but I think I'd prefer fighting without the tax units one has to take to make use of them.

 Dolnikan wrote:

nekooni wrote:

 Dolnikan wrote:
I however am curious if they will make it obligatory at tournaments. I play Guard infantry, and honestly, my command points don't really do much for me. At most, they're used to save a plasma gunner from blowing himself up.

You should take a look at the stratagems then, as there are still some relevant to you even if you're running infantry lists.

There indeed are some that see some use, but I think I'd prefer fighting without the tax units one has to take to make use of them.

Do you have that much difficulty fitting two officers and three infantry squads into your Guard lists?

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Dolnikan wrote:

nekooni wrote:

 Dolnikan wrote:
I however am curious if they will make it obligatory at tournaments. I play Guard infantry, and honestly, my command points don't really do much for me. At most, they're used to save a plasma gunner from blowing himself up.

You should take a look at the stratagems then, as there are still some relevant to you even if you're running infantry lists.

There indeed are some that see some use, but I think I'd prefer fighting without the tax units one has to take to make use of them.

Do you have that much difficulty fitting two officers and three infantry squads into your Guard lists?

Quite the opposite. I have difficulty fielding seven HQs, a bunch of sentinels, and the like juwt to bring two dozen infantry squads. If I could leave it at just the officers it would be amazing.

 Dolnikan wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Dolnikan wrote:

nekooni wrote:

 Dolnikan wrote:
I however am curious if they will make it obligatory at tournaments. I play Guard infantry, and honestly, my command points don't really do much for me. At most, they're used to save a plasma gunner from blowing himself up.

You should take a look at the stratagems then, as there are still some relevant to you even if you're running infantry lists.

There indeed are some that see some use, but I think I'd prefer fighting without the tax units one has to take to make use of them.

Do you have that much difficulty fitting two officers and three infantry squads into your Guard lists?

Quite the opposite. I have difficulty fielding seven HQs, a bunch of sentinels, and the like juwt to bring two dozen infantry squads. If I could leave it at just the officers it would be amazing.

I don't follow. Two battalions gives you 12 Troops slots and 6 HQ squads. In a 2K game, that starts you off with 9CP, and then you still have a bunch of other slots for further units. What exactly are you trying to do?

 catbarf wrote:
...I don't follow. Two battalions gives you 12 Troops slots and 6 HQ squads. In a 2K game, that starts you off with 9CP, and then you still have a bunch of other slots for further units. What exactly are you trying to do?

Two dozen. I think he wants to bring two Brigades.

That's initially amazing, and then horrifying if you imagine playing it. 24 Infantry squads is, what, 1200 points? With the support staff and required HWTs that's like ~264+ infantry plus 6 Sentinels.

You can field a max infantry army at 2000pts, but this is GW's rules trying to constrain you for your own good. There's almost no strategy in such a game, just rolling dice and picking up models. There's a novelty to it, but I can't imaging wanting to play against it more than once. That's probably why GW doesn't want the game played that way.

Ultimately that's the point: GW is designing the game to be fun and hypothetically balanced within a limited scope of what's technically possible. They do want to constrain you because it's not just your experience they're concerned about, it's also your opponent's. If it's not fun for both players, then somebody stops playing and buying.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Blndmage wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
Something to note - you can still run a Battle-Forged army if your different sub-factions are in different detachments, as long as they share an overall faction keyword.
So for example, if I want to run a Marines brigade alongside a Sisters patrol, that's still Battle-Forged as they all share the Imperial keyword. Or for another example, Death Guard and Slaanesh Daemons all have the Chaos keyword. That way you still get Command Points, and the Stratagems are worded in order to prevent you abusing them cross-faction.

Also, of course, this all applies from the Matched Play rules... if you're having a friendly game, there's nothing to stop you from technically running a game as Open Play, and simply saying "we both get 6CP to play with despite both being Unbound". You just have to agree to it beforehand.

Wait, isn't there something about not being able to use IMPERIUM, CHAOS, AELDARI, or TYYRANID as your army keywords?

Thats only for in the same detachment that everything needs to have 1 keyword in common (excluding the ones you listed).

I don't think so.
I can't find this stated anywhere for 9e. Not in the 9e Rulebook & there's no FAQs/Erratas on the subject.
If I'm wrong point out where it's hiding from me & be specific.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 catbarf wrote:
...I don't follow. Two battalions gives you 12 Troops slots and 6 HQ squads. In a 2K game, that starts you off with 9CP, and then you still have a bunch of other slots for further units. What exactly are you trying to do?

Two dozen. I think he wants to bring two Brigades.

Ohhhhh that makes more sense, not sure how I missed that.

Yeah I have to agree with DarkHound, technically it would fit inside the points limit, but it's a pretty awful play experience for everyone involved. Worth a laugh over Tabletop Simulator, but really not worth the commitment IRL.

Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

^Could always use Termagants as counts-as, they come in squads of 30. I don't recall what cultists are. Actually, don't Conscripts come in huge squads?

ccs wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Blndmage wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
Something to note - you can still run a Battle-Forged army if your different sub-factions are in different detachments, as long as they share an overall faction keyword.
So for example, if I want to run a Marines brigade alongside a Sisters patrol, that's still Battle-Forged as they all share the Imperial keyword. Or for another example, Death Guard and Slaanesh Daemons all have the Chaos keyword. That way you still get Command Points, and the Stratagems are worded in order to prevent you abusing them cross-faction.

Also, of course, this all applies from the Matched Play rules... if you're having a friendly game, there's nothing to stop you from technically running a game as Open Play, and simply saying "we both get 6CP to play with despite both being Unbound". You just have to agree to it beforehand.

Wait, isn't there something about not being able to use IMPERIUM, CHAOS, AELDARI, or TYYRANID as your army keywords?

Thats only for in the same detachment that everything needs to have 1 keyword in common (excluding the ones you listed).

I don't think so.
I can't find this stated anywhere for 9e. Not in the 9e Rulebook & there's no FAQs/Erratas on the subject.
If I'm wrong point out where it's hiding from me & be specific.

Its right there at the end of the text block.
page 4 of the GT CA.

"This has no effect on your army faction."

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Could always use Termagants as counts-as, they come in squads of 30. I don't recall what cultists are. Actually, don't Conscripts come in huge squads?

Could also play 30k. Auxilia can run 360 Troops in a primary detachment.

 Ordana wrote:

ccs wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Blndmage wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
Something to note - you can still run a Battle-Forged army if your different sub-factions are in different detachments, as long as they share an overall faction keyword.
So for example, if I want to run a Marines brigade alongside a Sisters patrol, that's still Battle-Forged as they all share the Imperial keyword. Or for another example, Death Guard and Slaanesh Daemons all have the Chaos keyword. That way you still get Command Points, and the Stratagems are worded in order to prevent you abusing them cross-faction.

Also, of course, this all applies from the Matched Play rules... if you're having a friendly game, there's nothing to stop you from technically running a game as Open Play, and simply saying "we both get 6CP to play with despite both being Unbound". You just have to agree to it beforehand.

Wait, isn't there something about not being able to use IMPERIUM, CHAOS, AELDARI, or TYYRANID as your army keywords?

Thats only for in the same detachment that everything needs to have 1 keyword in common (excluding the ones you listed).

I don't think so.
I can't find this stated anywhere for 9e. Not in the 9e Rulebook & there's no FAQs/Erratas on the subject.
If I'm wrong point out where it's hiding from me & be specific.

Its right there at the end of the text block.
page 4 of the GT CA.

"This has no effect on your army faction."

Ah, you're right, there it is!

But it's an essentially optional rule as it only applies when playing in select envrons or mimicking them.
If it were intended as a default rule it'd have appeared in the main rule book. But it didn't. Instead it's lurking in a book many could easily see as being non-essential*. (even if they did buy the thing in order to get the Munitorium book for the pts.) And maybe never bought or even seen at all if you get your pts from Battlescribe.

*For example;
1) By many here in 2020 as there's little if any tourney play occurring. Why invest in a tourney focused book in the current environment? Especially here in the USA atm.
You might need the 2021 edition....

2) By the circle of people I play with.
We aren't playing in tournies, Grand or otherwise. We're not running tournies. And we're not emulating tournies. When a couple of us get together Sunday afternoon to play some 40k? Even in normal times? It's not "competitive". It's just playing a game. Sure pts are used, & one side will win & one side will lose, but....
So a book titled "Grand Tournament 2020"? Beyond yanking missions out of it, It'll go largely ignored on the shelf as it's deemed to not apply. .

You don't get Stratagems other than the basic ones unless you play battleforged, not to mention losing out on Chapter Tactics. AM should just go back to the platoon model.

AnomanderRake wrote:

 catbarf wrote:
...I don't follow. Two battalions gives you 12 Troops slots and 6 HQ squads. In a 2K game, that starts you off with 9CP, and then you still have a bunch of other slots for further units. What exactly are you trying to do?

Two dozen. I think he wants to bring two Brigades.

Yes, although I tend more towards two Battalions and a Brigade. That saves a little on the tax units.

DarkHound wrote:That's initially amazing, and then horrifying if you imagine playing it. 24 Infantry squads is, what, 1200 points? With the support staff and required HWTs that's like ~264+ infantry plus 6 Sentinels.

You can field a max infantry army at 2000pts, but this is GW's rules trying to constrain you for your own good. There's almost no strategy in such a game, just rolling dice and picking up models. There's a novelty to it, but I can't imaging wanting to play against it more than once. That's probably why GW doesn't want the game played that way.

Ultimately that's the point: GW is designing the game to be fun and hypothetically balanced within a limited scope of what's technically possible. They do want to constrain you because it's not just your experience they're concerned about, it's also your opponent's. If it's not fun for both players, then somebody stops playing and buying.

I used to play something similar before the points increases of 9th and it actually wasn't bad. And certainly more fun than unkillable flyers or Imperial Knights, or mountains of re-rolls focused around a castle or gunline. Yes, it's a horde, but it's not just about swarming over everything. It's about concentrating that force somewhere, targeting priorities, and all those things. And most of the time, my opponents also enjoy fighting it because there are quite a few people who love to finally be able to rack up the kill count.

catbarf wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 catbarf wrote:
...I don't follow. Two battalions gives you 12 Troops slots and 6 HQ squads. In a 2K game, that starts you off with 9CP, and then you still have a bunch of other slots for further units. What exactly are you trying to do?

Two dozen. I think he wants to bring two Brigades.

Ohhhhh that makes more sense, not sure how I missed that.

Yeah I have to agree with DarkHound, technically it would fit inside the points limit, but it's a pretty awful play experience for everyone involved. Worth a laugh over Tabletop Simulator, but really not worth the commitment IRL.

I'm currently rebuilding my guard (what I have left of the previous incarnation honestly looks like crap), but I do enjoy making and painting them. I don't really play them as blobs with just lasguns, mind you. The squads all have either a heavy or special weapon and different roles and all that.

rbstr wrote:Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

Not always, but I wouldn't say that this is one of the cases.

Insectum7 wrote:^Could always use Termagants as counts-as, they come in squads of 30. I don't recall what cultists are. Actually, don't Conscripts come in huge squads?

That actually is an interesting idea and I'll look into it. Conscripts indeed come in larger squads, but honestly, they're useless beyond being bodies. They don't bring anything else and I like my troops to have an active role in the game.

AnomanderRake wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Could always use Termagants as counts-as, they come in squads of 30. I don't recall what cultists are. Actually, don't Conscripts come in huge squads?

Could also play 30k. Auxilia can run 360 Troops in a primary detachment.

That kind of is what I'm missing without the platoons, but unfortunately, no one around here plays 30k as far as I know.

Because the whole point of matched play is to restrict army composition.

If you want to run with only Fast Attack units and no Troops or HQ's, you can, but it'll cost you.