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2020/09/01 09:33:11
Subject: What would it take for another table top game company to rival GW
Not Online!!! wrote: Honestly, GW feels sluggish on occaision.
Probably precislcly becuase they are so large and domineering .
Exploiting that is possible, but difficult.
The problem with a big business is its a bit like an oil tanker. It's got vast wealth and vast potential and vast resources to do stuff. But at the same time its a huge moving object that can't quickly change course without dumping vast amounts of that wealth in one big go.
GW moving into 3D printing and changing the whole design of their company would be hard; they've got long term staff expecting to move up and retire casting plastic; designing sprue, working the machines, packing etc... They've got machines, distribution, factories etc... Their whole system is built to run a certain way. A massive shift that might well result in them having almost no factory production and cutting out a huge number of staff and resources is a big change. It's the kind of change you want to put off because you hope you can push through and not have to basically rebuild the company into a new system that, who knows in 3 years could totally change again.
Newer firms can muscle in during these changing moments, they can take the risks because to them it doesn't matter. They have to take a big risk anyway to get into the market so they can either risk it the traditional way or the new way. If they get it right they might just rise up and overtake the big name; get it wrong and they fall to the side.
We saw this with cameras. Kodak was vast and powerful in the film era. When digital game along they didn't jump in with both feet, it was too different; too big a change and back then it wasn't even superior to film. It was a novelty but distinctly not as good a product at the end. Other firms did, they made big investments, took the risk and the digital got better in a very short span of time. Suddenly the market shifted and digital overtook film. It still wasn't technically superior, but it was digital, it was instant, it was computer based. Today Kodak is a shadow of its former self and has given away the market lead to Canon, Nikon and Sony.
GW could go the same way or perhaps the 3D printing revolution never happens. Heck we can remember that in the 90s VR was going to take over the world, yet it never did. Even today, 30 years later, its still not really taken over gaming. It's far more stable than it was and its seeming that it will settle down into a steady growth within the market; but it never rose to dominance like some predicted 30 years ago. Same with 3D TVs they had a huge amount of noise made about them a few years back, yet it never really translated into an actual change. Perhaps we've another 30 years before 3D printing becomes a household thing. OR heck who knows perhaps there's a huge push against plastics and 3d printing falls to the side as household good start being made of more green and long lasting materials.
This is preciscly my point, however i'd like to add to that, that GW has room for competitors allready, basically, GW is in many regions extremely dominant, in regards to TG. However, f.e. over here, during 6th and 7th, they shattered the backbone of the local scene through a combination of nutjob prices and terribad rules, and suddendly alot of other games showed up. to the point that they now that the scen is overall more healthy.
GW is, to a degree relying on their hegemonial structure, sometimes ignoring to their detriment the rules foundation and models.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2020/09/01 15:17:01
Subject: Re:What would it take for another table top game company to rival GW
I've enjoyed reading this thread, although I feel there is too many negative comments about needing lots and lots of money. I may have a solution(especially because of the current world situation), it may be simplistic but it has possibilities. First I will say this;
Somewhere out there in the world(maybe even someone reading this thread) someone may well have created a brilliant set of rules, with a workable backstory full of ideas. It comes under the law of averages, it has to exist. So, if you have what you think is a brilliant ruleset tell us about it!
Here's my idea;
It always comes down to funding, instead of trying to do it all yourself spread it around. If you have a ruleset that you can't fund why not speak to figure manufacturers? You could go to them saying you want to publish this ruleset but have not got much in the way of funds, if they can help fund the publishing you will allow them to create a faction for the game. Now it may seem unrealistic with just one manufacturer but if you go to other companies also(each one making a different faction) then in theory you could have a game up and running with multiple factions ready to go on day one. Later funding could be done by issuing licences to new companies (for a fee) who wish to participate, that way you could have a stream of new releases on a regular basis with each company able to concentrate on their one faction without trying to cover all factions.
This is just an idea, thinking out loud, so to speak.
But! With the world being very different now, many companies are going to have to rethink how they do things to survive. If someone manages to create a wargame that can rival or better the current leaders, surely it would make more sense to risk it rather than create a small line of minis that have no link to any other game or system? Why not invest on something that may well be the next big thing?
Again, simplistic, but many things are created from simple basic ideas.
Like, don't like. Just think about it!
2020/09/01 15:34:05
Subject: What would it take for another table top game company to rival GW
Overhead, you do realize that 3D printing at home isn’t the future, right? It’s the present. Check out the BFGFB group; people buy $150 printers and then print out fleets that cost $1000 at retail. Dudes with printers sell the ships for half the original retail price and build up print farms with the profits.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Slipstream, we’ve all been hoping for years that the smaller companies would pool their resources together and designate one or two rule sets as the “unofficial” rule sets of non-GW gaming.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/01 15:36:06
BFG models are kinda old and crap for a game that hasn't been supported for decades.
While 3D at home is a thing, and if you are good enough and have a 3D printer good enough you can print current GW miniatures, it still isn't cheap on money nor on time.
3D printing isn't a threat to GW, not yet.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/01 15:58:13
2020/09/01 17:19:52
Subject: What would it take for another table top game company to rival GW
The big issue I see is that the first hurdle in a new hobby is the buy-in-price. GW has worked on pushing that down
no, they have constantly pushed it up
by increasing the game size and the price of the models, the only "cheap" entry are board games and those are an entry to the "GW-Hobby" and not Wargaming
so adding a 3D Printer to that range, were you enter the "GW-Hobby" with a board game and up buying a 1000$ Printer to print your own GW models
Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise
2020/09/01 17:44:48
Subject: What would it take for another table top game company to rival GW
Guys, a printer like an Ender can cost as little as $100, and can print out enough terrain to fill an entire table for maybe $60 in filament. That puts it in direct competition with GW’s new push for terrain. With YouTube videos and helpful threads even on Dakka, setting up the printer takes only about as much time as assembling the GW terrain would take. You can paint pieces as you print more. The savings on terrain alone pay for the device.
As for BFG being dead...it isn’t, now that people are printing whole fleets. GW dropped the ball and they’ll have a hard time recapturing that market.
I get stuff 3D printed for me by a friend, and he charges very reasonable rates, but I don't see 3D printing ever taking over from mass-production. It's like expecting home-printing to take over from full offset printing.
There's quality issues as well as cost issues. Again, I like the 3D prints I get, but damned if I don't miss the ease of working with GW plastic and admiring their design work.
2020/09/01 17:55:09
Subject: What would it take for another table top game company to rival GW
I’m not arguing it’s the end of GW, but I do feel like GW’s constant price hikes and price trolling will push more people towards 3D printing rather than competing miniature companies.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: BFG is (sadly) not a current line. So it’s a hard sell to me as proof that 3D Printing is the end of GW’s current business model.
Better to look at current games, and try to extrapolate from the info we reasonably know, what percentage are 3D printing their armies.
Like I've before I think terrain will be the first victim of the 3d-apoc, full armies are still a ways off as whilst the tech is there it needs a prod to get it to i-wotsit mass use simplicity and even GWs latest push to use of branded offical terrain will just result in 'game standard' .stl files popping up in short order, unless GW try to IP basic shapes, and even the low end machines can knock that out to a passable level
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I’m not arguing it’s the end of GW, but I do feel like GW’s constant price hikes and price trolling will push more people towards 3D printing rather than competing miniature companies.
Id like this to be true but despite the intertubes being a thing for a while people still display woeful lack of curiousity, although if 3d printing becomes a regular part of IT teaching at school thatll help
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/01 18:32:19
"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED."
2020/09/01 18:41:32
Subject: What would it take for another table top game company to rival GW
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Overhead, you do realize that 3D printing at home isn’t the future, right? It’s the present. Check out the BFGFB group; people buy $150 printers and then print out fleets that cost $1000 at retail. Dudes with printers sell the ships for half the original retail price and build up print farms with the profits.
Aye but last I checked print farms are not as good for global mass production as a plastic injection moulding system.
So at some point either GW has to turn all its stores into mini-production facilities or the customer has to pick up the tab. The other aspect is that I was more talking about the mass market rather than the online hobby niche - where even here not everyone has a 3D printer. They are still somewhat exotic - getting more common, but not commonplace.
I know eff all about 3D printing capabilities, so take the next with a healthy dose of salt and be mindful of my admitted ignorance.
I’m not trolling, or other wise being deliberately obtuse. In other words? I’m not picking a fight.
But we’re all familiar with GW’s terrain, yeah? It’s incredibly modular, and no floor need be glued to the next, giving it serious flexibility. ]
Yes each upper floor needs to be smaller in footprint than the other, otherwise it looks proper daft.
Example, picking the largest and most expensive offering from GW as the range stands?
£65. Not cheap by any stretch. But having bought two? A most excellent kit.
This is three stories high (oh gods I probably sound like wrestling no-mark Enzo Amore). It has seriously impressive statutes. And if, like a sensible person, you don’t glue the floors to each other, makes for at least three useful pieces of one story terrain (the one story being the ground floor).
Now for my admitted ignorance. I know that 3D printers can screw I t up. And that it takes time to 3D print.
Genuinely open question to those with 3D printers that have tried similar files? How long did it take to print? What sort of clean up time was involved? Did it print with similar modularity? If it was modular, did the components sit neatly with each other?
Super serial open questions. Only caveat being that my own filter is “lazy with decently deep pockets, and really enjoys building kits”
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/01 19:11:11
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Like I've before I think terrain will be the first victim of the 3d-apoc, full armies are still a ways off as whilst the tech is there it needs a prod to get it to i-wotsit mass use simplicity and even GWs latest push to use of branded offical terrain will just result in 'game standard' .stl files popping up in short order, unless GW try to IP basic shapes, and even the low end machines can knock that out to a passable level
I think we're likely to see the MDF terrain start to shrink in the not too distant future... while it can be very pretty, it's fiddly and time consuming to make it so, at least working solely in MDF. The convenience of injection moulded plastic terrain will keep it relevant for a while yet, though.
2020/09/01 19:39:03
Subject: What would it take for another table top game company to rival GW
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Overhead, you do realize that 3D printing at home isn’t the future, right? It’s the present. Check out the BFGFB group; people buy $150 printers and then print out fleets that cost $1000 at retail. Dudes with printers sell the ships for half the original retail price and build up print farms with the profits.
Aye but last I checked print farms are not as good for global mass production as a plastic injection moulding system.
So at some point either GW has to turn all its stores into mini-production facilities or the customer has to pick up the tab. The other aspect is that I was more talking about the mass market rather than the online hobby niche - where even here not everyone has a 3D printer. They are still somewhat exotic - getting more common, but not commonplace.
I’m not talking about GW production. At all. I’m talking about something on the consumer end that will bring down demand.
To make a significant dent? What percentage will go the 3D route, and assuming GW offer a legit 3D printing route? What fraction might strap on that wooden leg?
Music industry (eventually) adapted. Why can’t GW follow suit in some manner?
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As someone who works in the 3D printed tabletop products business, its not really very profitable (as in - profit margins are good if you don't assign a cost to production time) and doesn't scale very well. 3D printing might hurt GWs margins, but its not going to put them out of business, and no company running a print-at-home product line is going to get as big as GW in my lifetime - theres major technological hurdles that need to be surmounted before thats a feasible possibility, but those technologies are generally regarded as antithetical to 3d printing hobbyists (i.e. DRM, proprietary file types, license term enforcement, etc.).
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
2020/09/01 22:15:22
Subject: What would it take for another table top game company to rival GW
To make a significant dent? What percentage will go the 3D route, and assuming GW offer a legit 3D printing route? What fraction might strap on that wooden leg?
Music industry (eventually) adapted. Why can’t GW follow suit in some manner?
It depends. When someone starts showing off pictures of GW-style printed terrain on a large (unofficial) FB group, there will inevitably be people who ask where he got the terrain, who then print their own or sell printed terrain. So far, 28mm terrain is not close to critical mass for this. However, some more price hikes or much-loved OOP terrain boxes would shove a bunch of customers into the world of 3D printing. We’re seeing a lot of options appear in the News and Rumors subforum; the more options that exist, the more likelihood a customer will find a set too good to pass up because it’s cheaper and cooler than the goofy skull gates or whatever latest thing.
I doubt GW will adopt 3D printing before it’s too popular and widespread to co-opt. They will probably fight it, though, the same way they fought against Chapterhouse.
It depends what you mean by a serious dent, too. GW has doubtlessly lost market share they could have kept, but they are so adept at capturing whales and honeymooners thT they are making money hand over fist. If GW released a plastic terrain set that looked exactly like an empty coffee tin with space marine icons glued to it, it would still sell out in an hour. There is a significant chunk of the customer base who will buy only GW.
It seems absurd, but GW is very adept at creating a sense of ownership and buy-in to their products. I stopped playing over a year ago, but I'm still painting up my backlog and chatting on GW-oriented forums. It's surprisingly difficult to quit cold-turkey.
2020/09/03 05:12:58
Subject: What would it take for another table top game company to rival GW
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I know eff all about 3D printing capabilities, so take the next with a healthy dose of salt and be mindful of my admitted ignorance.
No, I think you're part of the answer why 3D printers aren't (yet) going to take over miniature production.
Some of you may have noticed that paints, and boardgames (as well as arts and crafts and scrapbooks) aren't computers. Yet, videogames, photoshop, youtube, social media, etc. clearly shows that computer hobbies are certainly out there. I'd posit that some hobbyists with non-computer hobbies are entirely uninterested in a 3D printers because 3D printers (as well as apps for boardgames, which are even easier to use) are more on the computer side of things than non-computers.
As others have said, owning a printer doesn't mean you're not buying books or that you're making your own cards for gaming. We'll have to see how well 3D printing replaces conventional shopping in general to see its affect on the miniature games hobby.
Technology usually goes through three phases: Enthusiast, Business, and Consumer. The Enthusiast is willing to learn all the intricacies and pay good money for a new technology. Business has the money, and makes this technology more commonplace. Consumer wants something cheap and easy to use, and only cares about how the technology can improve their lives, not the technology itself. Often, Enthusiasts confuse the Enthusiast phase for the Consumer phase, because they don't understand how little interest or tolerance a Consumer may have for a technology.
The only way a company will topple GW is with innovation and making GW obsolete...
Say for instance someone created a neoprene game mat with sensors imbedded within that can read NFC chips that are placed into the bases of the minatures...
Then create a tabletop game simulator that allows that player to play anyone in the world.
Moving your minature allows the player you face to see the minature move on thier simulator.
Something like this will topple GW... kinda like how blockbuster disappeared because people stopped renting moves from a store.. GW will exist as long as the market exist in its current form.
2020/09/03 08:01:36
Subject: What would it take for another table top game company to rival GW
gungo wrote: The only way a company will topple GW is with innovation and making GW obsolete...
Say for instance someone created a neoprene game mat with sensors imbedded within that can read NFC chips that are placed into the bases of the minatures...
Then create a tabletop game simulator that allows that player to play anyone in the world.
Moving your minature allows the player you face to see the minature move on thier simulator.
Something like this will topple GW... kinda like how blockbuster disappeared because people stopped renting moves from a store.. GW will exist as long as the market exist in its current form.
That would be an interesting development for sure. But, and this is a question asked out of my own ignorance, could that technology be solely proprietary? Would it involve entirely custom chips based on unique designs? Because of not, what would be there to stop GW just churning out their own version?
My thinking here is that NFC stuff is pretty common place. Amiibo, Contactless Payment, my work security pass, radar keys for disabled toilets etc are all very common place examples of NFC usage. Could such an implementation be patented to the point that anyone else using it has to pay you a license fee? And, given how hard it is to crack into the wargames market, could you get it out in sufficient numbers to recoup what is, ultimately, a cost in addition to those involved in TTGs?
Because GW have pretty deep pockets. If you’ve sunk millions into your company to develop this ace sounding product (and it does sound ace!), and hit the financial skids? Someone is going to come and buy up, whatever is left?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/03 08:18:55
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Half and Half games are the worst examples of wishy thinking and wont be any kind of threat to GW, the odd app for boardgames, like the Cthulu one, are about as far as the idea needs to go.
The only threat to GW is if folks start dabbling in other games but as has been pointed out their retention-fu is strong and a constant influx of new players currently makes heratics like me largely irrelavent
"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED."
2020/09/03 09:24:48
Subject: What would it take for another table top game company to rival GW
gungo wrote: The only way a company will topple GW is with innovation and making GW obsolete...
Say for instance someone created a neoprene game mat with sensors imbedded within that can read NFC chips that are placed into the bases of the minatures...
Then create a tabletop game simulator that allows that player to play anyone in the world.
Moving your minature allows the player you face to see the minature move on thier simulator.
Something like this will topple GW... kinda like how blockbuster disappeared because people stopped renting moves from a store.. GW will exist as long as the market exist in its current form.
That solves your army. How would you see where opponents models are? Computer screen? Then that's not really different to say tabletop simularor except more clumsy...
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2020/09/03 10:26:40
Subject: What would it take for another table top game company to rival GW
I can't see that being as popular as you think because in the end all you'd see for your opponents units is a square/hex on the board highlighted with a circle representing the base. It loses the interaction of a physical game and isn't really as fast to process, play nor visual as a digital game. It's sort of stuck between the two.
Now I could see microchips in model bases being a thing, but the trick would be how the information is working in the game and it would likely rely on very tight links to a good mobile app to function. Even then you'd still likely have to keep turning to the app to plug in basic data (eg wounds).
Honestly I'd see something like holographic games being more of a threat; rather than clumsy hybrids of digital and physical products.
Distribution and availability of a decent product everywhere at a reasonable level with rules that are clean. Having a set style and an easy entrance to play point is also key.
Mantic has the rules, but they shot the retailers many years ago and are trying to get them back now, which is a hard battle to fight. Plus they keep playing around between plastic, metal and resin/plastic. There is no uniformity even within their ownstyle.
Infinity has too much for me to look at, it's visually overwhelming and my painting skills don't do it justice. Cost to enter is also higher.
I never played Privateer stuff, but they switched material and the rules I heard went to gak.
LOL, Theo your mind is an amazing place, never change.-camkierhi 9/19/13
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2020/09/03 11:24:43
Subject: What would it take for another table top game company to rival GW
Rulesets don't matter. Rules largely don't matter to the gw crowd. Its the experience. The social experience plus the fact their investment is safe by such a massive player base.
The rules have been a trash fire forever and they still bring in new players because everyone else is playing it.
The best ruleset in the world by another company won't change that.
2020/09/03 12:23:16
Subject: Re:What would it take for another table top game company to rival GW
Theophony wrote: Plus they keep playing around between plastic, metal and resin/plastic. There is no uniformity even within their ownstyle.
it is not playing around but trying to get a full range of miniatures for all factions without going bankcrupt.
one thing they learned over time was that people want a full range of minis for their faction but they cannot afford to do everything an HIPS and it takes time to get stuff
yet Resin and Metal is made in house, so easy for them to make and add parts/models the people are asking for which would be too expensive and too slow in HIPS
remember, the fiasco of the first Basilean Men at Arms happend because KS Backers demanded that the models need to be delivered fast and not "good" (Speed over Quality)
FFG has a similar problem, a lot of people won't start until the factions are a complete range, having Options to chose from in each slot and not just core models and commanders
and they also struggle to bring everything in HIPS (for Legion) and keep stuff in stock
they have chosen a more save starting point by rules coming with the models so people are not missing something as they don't know what is there, except for the obvious (like Legin having an oprative slot but no model yet, people know that something will be there)
it took GW years to get HIPS manufactored in house, others don't have the luxury and need to work with different materials
Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise
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