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epronovost wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

epronovost wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Morty just had issues that guy was just a giant ball of hate, rage, and self loathing

That describes basically all the "evil" Primarchs and maybe some of the more loyal ones. Dorn had some serious issues too as did Ferrus Manus and I'm not too sure Corax was all there.

eh the loyalist ones where the more functional half. there's a scene in... I wanna say slaves to darkness where Horus is thinking and it's basicly like "...... for god's sake, why did all the people who rallied to me have to be the insane ones! I'd have won this already if I had Gulliman and Dorn"

.. course it never occured to him that if all the ones who followed him where the crazy ones maybe what he's doing was.. ya know... crazy!

I don't remember the title, but I remember the short story. He's also complaining to Ferus Manus' skull at that point...so ya know... crazy!

what you don't talk to your dead brother's skull?

So the Primarchs, essentially the marines archetype, are consistently describe as non functional from a mental POV (well like half of them) but Im trolling because I point out that they have a tendency for mental breakdown and rebelion... That makes perfect "40k" logic.

That the IOM basically needs SM to dealt with rebelious SM, certainly reinforce my POV.

the alrgest marine on marine civil war since the horus heresy was the badab war, which was basicly like 3 or 4 chapters that went renegade tops.

if marines where "always falling to chaos" wouldn't there be bigger conflicts?

or MAYBE, just MAYBE the chapter system has been reliable at stopping heresy

BrianDavion wrote:
the alrgest marine on marine civil war since the horus heresy was the badab war, which was basicly like 3 or 4 chapters that went renegade tops.

if marines where "always falling to chaos" wouldn't there be bigger conflicts?

or MAYBE, just MAYBE the chapter system has been reliable at stopping heresy

The Chapter system was designed for the cases where one rebellious Chapter cannot do that much damage. The Badab War was notable because several Chapters turned at roughly the same time and in an area where it proved to be difficult to expulse them. Individual Space Marines deserting or a few squad or combat group here and there is probably much more common than full Chapter rebellion.

epronovost wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
the alrgest marine on marine civil war since the horus heresy was the badab war, which was basicly like 3 or 4 chapters that went renegade tops.

if marines where "always falling to chaos" wouldn't there be bigger conflicts?

or MAYBE, just MAYBE the chapter system has been reliable at stopping heresy

The Chapter system was designed for the cases where one rebellious Chapter cannot do that much damage. The Badab War was notable because several Chapters turned at roughly the same time and in an area where it proved to be difficult to expulse them. Individual Space Marines deserting or a few squad or combat group here and there is probably much more common than full Chapter rebellion.

proably, that's the case with just about every faction TBH, well aside from guard who it seems whenever they go traitor drag an entire star system into rebellion, but thats more likely because the guard don't deploy in small formations and thus when the guard go bad the rot has likely gotten to the top.

hell of the Imperium's elite only grey knights and custodes seem to be immune to the temptations of chaos.

So even the most notable weakness of the Astartes... Their hubris and tendency to fall into chaos, its being benied by the MAS "Marines Appreciation Society".

Just think about it for a second... If Thanos/Tzeecht snapped out of existence those few Astartes (loyal or traitor) currently in the Galaxy... Would the situation of the IOM really change that much? Perhaps some other organisation will have to do some extra work but that about it.

Disclaimer... The hardware and ship dont dissapear so most of it can still be used by the IOM.

Vatsetis wrote:


Just think about it for a second... If Thanos/Tzeecht snapped out of existence those few Astartes (loyal or traitor) currently in the Galaxy... Would the situation of the IOM really change that much? Perhaps some other organisation will have to do some extra work but that about it.

the IoM would lose a few critical battles but no the grand strategic scope would likely not change.

congrats you've realized the real tragedy of the IoM.

have a cookie.

Vatsetis wrote:
So even the most notable weakness of the Astartes... Their hubris and tendency to fall into chaos, its being benied by the MAS "Marines Appreciation Society".

I don't think this has ever been said to be the SM most notable weakness, which is usually stated to be their low numbers and slow recruitment processes. Corruption is an issue because it provides recruitment for the Great Enemy, but it is not described as common outside the HH.

Just think about it for a second... If Thanos/Tzeecht snapped out of existence those few Astartes (loyal or traitor) currently in the Galaxy... Would the situation of the IOM really change that much? Perhaps some other organisation will have to do some extra work but that about it.

Disclaimer... The hardware and ship dont dissapear so most of it can still be used by the IOM.

The Space Marines make the hardware much more effective. SM fleet assets are optimised for orbital operations, which are very dangerous places for ships to fight in. Most more important planets (like hive worlds, forge worlds, fortress worlds, even industrial and civilised worlds) have strong orbital defenses that are well-shielded. Orbital bombardment of a hive city is an extremely dangerous affair because the city will likely have very powerful void shields (usually described as more powerful than ship-borne shields) and multiple defence laser and missile silo installations that can damage or destroy the heaviest ships. Orbital defense platforms are similar.

Space Marines can be deployed in manners that bypass void shielding, such as thunderhawks, boarding torpedos, drop pods, and maybe teleportation (all of these routes have been shown to penetrate void shields in some sources, but be affected in others, so there are likely a whole bunch of conditions for when they can penetrate shielding, however Marines are consistently shown to be able to deploy to and successfully assault shielded installations). They basically operate like a specialised, reuseable torpedo warhead that can storm a key facility and knock out part of the enemy's orbital defenses. Their ships are tough enough to make short attack runs in support without taking too much damage, but often cannot hang around trading blows until the Marines have opened holes in the defences. Very few other Imperial forces can perform these high-intensity planetstrike operations effectively, and none are as suited to it as Astartes (pretty much only Custodes could do it as well, but they are basically just super-Marines, but even rarer). The Badab war FW books actually have some really good examples of SM operating in this manner.

Part of the reason the Imperial Navy gets a bit sweaty about Astartes is because the above also works very well against voidships, and SM are not supposed to be fleet action combatants as capable as the Imperial Navy to keep them controllable. However, it is impossible for them to not have a good capability in fleet actions whilst retaining the above skillset the Imperium needs, so the Navy has to suck it up and content themselves with moaning about lances being fleet weapons and asking SM to stick to bombardment cannons. They are still at a disadvantage overall, but not as big a disadvantage as the Navy would like...

Why do you think they are called Space Marines

Well if Marines where just this... "Naval Infantry in Space", they will have some sort of in universe sense... (altough perhaps that would make reinforce the need for non oversized Astartes)... But they are shown as having an all capable military capability... Why do Astartes need a Land Raider or a Whirlwind in their intended role?

Vatsetis wrote:
Well if Marines where just this... "Naval Infantry in Space", they will have some sort of in universe sense... (altough perhaps that would make reinforce the need for non oversized Astartes)... But they are shown as having an all capable military capability... Why do Astartes need a Land Raider or a Whirlwind in their intended role?

Because sometimes you need a big ol' tank that's pretty much impervious to a lot of dakka, and sometimes you need some of your own artillery and not need to liaise with the guard for it.

It wasn't until very recently that the USMC had their own tanks, marines having ground assets isn't exactly unheard of.

it's worth noting that Marine vehicles are GENERALLY lighter then guard vehicles. the super heavy Marine tanks are all aging relics of the heresy. the largest tank Marines have now is the land raider, which is a heavy transport, more so then a main battletank.

all Marine vehicles are lightweight and easily transported.

BrianDavion wrote:
it's worth noting that Marine vehicles are GENERALLY lighter then guard vehicles. the super heavy Marine tanks are all aging relics of the heresy. the largest tank Marines have now is the land raider, which is a heavy transport, more so then a main battletank.

The Astraeus, Repulsor and Gladiator would all like to have a word with you.

Sterling191 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
it's worth noting that Marine vehicles are GENERALLY lighter then guard vehicles. the super heavy Marine tanks are all aging relics of the heresy. the largest tank Marines have now is the land raider, which is a heavy transport, more so then a main battletank.

The Astraeus, Repulsor and Gladiator would all like to have a word with you.

repulsor's roughly the size of a land raider, gladiator's about the size of a predator. While it's likely a THUNDERHAWK can't carry them, (I'm given the impression the T-hawk C was specificly designed to carry land raiders and rhino chassis vehicles specificly) we know Cawl designed a new "dropship" for primaris Marines called the overlord. that is basicly the "primaris thunderhawk" (I'm hoping GW takes the oppertunity to put a model of it out for IA so we know what the hell it LOOKS LIKE)

we know VERY little about it, but I'd bet Cawl designed a varient of it to carry marine tanks as it seems kinda odd he wouldn't have thought of that, (assuming they can't just drop the tanks from orbit and use their anti-grav pads to slow their drop to survivable speeds)
the Astraeus yeah is a bit odd as it doesn't really fit with modern Marine doctrine at all. I'm gonna guess that was just Cawl being bored

I think in one novel a Repulsor is flying around like an aircraft on its gravplates?
So depends on the author!

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I think in one novel a Repulsor is flying around like an aircraft on its gravplates?
So depends on the author!

I vaguely remember then dropping repulsors in in dark imperium

Vatsetis wrote:
So the Primarchs, essentially the marines archetype, are consistently describe as non functional from a mental POV (well like half of them) but Im trolling because I point out that they have a tendency for mental breakdown and rebelion... That makes perfect "40k" logic.

That the IOM basically needs SM to dealt with rebelious SM, certainly reinforce my POV.

Marines, like everything the Emprah touched, are deeply flawed by his lack of humanity. He saw individuals as just tools to create his Great Ideal Human Civilization and it shows. His vision was doomed to fail from the start, like any other tyrant with the dream to remake mankind into his ideal New Human.

BrianDavion wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I think in one novel a Repulsor is flying around like an aircraft on its gravplates?
So depends on the author!

I vaguely remember then dropping repulsors in in dark imperium

Both Dark Imperium and War of Secrets have Repulsors drop deploy from low orbit.

This really is like discussing stuff with a Flat Earther.

Cited explanations offered? Goal post moved, and a complete refusal to look at everything as a single thing, instead claiming if one thing doesn’t make sense taken out of context, nothing does.

I previously made allowance for the possibility of stuff getting lost in translation - but no, OP is just being deliberately obtuse.

What? Vatsetis writing troll posts and ignoring anyone's opinion that doesn't align with theirs? No way!

Gert and Doc, perhaps you shouldnt make assumptions and judge my perceived tone.

Adeptus astartes are just trying to do everything perfectly in almost every sense, being the more diverse force in the setting while also being one of the smallest... This are many red pills to swallow.

If you are so sure, Im just troling, feel free to ignore me altogether. Its better for everyone.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Easy, Marines are really good at taking military targets without destroying them. Instead of blowing up an orbital defense platform, why not take it instead and use it against the enemy?

Think of Marines as a multitool. They're very capable at doing a number of things all the way from single-squad covert intel gathering, all the way up to fleet engagement and Exterminatus.

Only if said orbital platform has corridors tall enough and wide enough for Space Marines to be able to manoeuvre in. Space Marines in a tight corridor could be rendered completely immobile if you killed the marines at the front and the back, as there would quite simply be not enough room for the marines in the middle to get over the corpses of their fallen comrades. At which point you just fire a meltagun down the corridor to kill them all and pat yourself on the back at a job well done.

I would just buy a WH+ suscription just to watch such feat in a webseries.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Easy, Marines are really good at taking military targets without destroying them. Instead of blowing up an orbital defense platform, why not take it instead and use it against the enemy?

Think of Marines as a multitool. They're very capable at doing a number of things all the way from single-squad covert intel gathering, all the way up to fleet engagement and Exterminatus.

Only if said orbital platform has corridors tall enough and wide enough for Space Marines to be able to manoeuvre in. Space Marines in a tight corridor could be rendered completely immobile if you killed the marines at the front and the back, as there would quite simply be not enough room for the marines in the middle to get over the corpses of their fallen comrades. At which point you just fire a meltagun down the corridor to kill them all and pat yourself on the back at a job well done.

Well you certainly won't take it with that attitude. :p

Marines can just walk on the outside of the thing, if necessary, on their way to the bridge or vulnerable section. Or teleport directly to the control center. But if they really can't board it, they can just blow it up. But what metters in the lore is that they in fact ARE really good at such operations. They don't have to succeed all the time, just enough to justify their existence.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vatsetis wrote:
I would just buy a WH+ suscription just to watch such feat in a webseries.

You can read about a similar scenario in Ian Watsons Space Marine novel. Marines have trouble in the tight corridors of an underground Squat facility.

The architecture of 40K is repeatedly and near universally shown to be on the big side.

Sure, a Tau civilian structure might prove a difficulty for Marines. As would something built strictly to average human height.

Except….nothing is shown to be on that scale.

Tau stuff, given they’re slighter on average than baseline humans? Their military installations still need to be built on a scale where their own Battle Suits can operate - leaving plenty of comfortable space for any Astartes, up to and arguably including a Dreadnought.

Orky stuff? Mega-Armour, Killa Kans and Dredds all need to be able to walk the corridor.

Eldar? Wraith Warriors.

And that’s to say nothing of maintenance and other necessities.

Consider. At 6’2”, I’m somewhat in excess of average human male height globally. I’m just kinda tall. Yet? It’s flipping rare I find ceiling height uncomfortable. Doorways are slightly different, especially in historic buildings which I do like to visit (I really need to duck in castles). But I can still more or less fit.

Part of that is technological limitation of the construction type - others, particularly castles, another layer of defence as even my Paw at a mere 5’8” needs to duck through some castle doors.

But in 40K? There are practicalities medieval castle designers didn’t have to worry about - like your own heavy hitters being able to freely move about. Sure, they had to consider their own troops, but not actual war constructs and that.

Even Squats? Mining equipment tends to be somewhat bulky. Sure in purely civilian areas might be a tight squeak, but still far from impossible.

Example, carrying on my castle analogy earlier. At my size, the stairwells are awkward regardless of whether I’m going up or down (they near universally turn clockwise, so the Defender going down has the better footing, and their shield arm has the most space, whilst reducing both for the attacker going up. Gravity did a lot of the fighting with such a design!). And the head room is super limited. But I can still totally get up and down.

Sure, I’m not exactly facing someone trying to cut my bonce off - but then in the Astartes scenario, I’d have my power armour to take care of that.

@Mad Doc Grotsnik

You make several fairly dubious assertion. A bunker complex or a space station might not be designed to house war walkers. Why would a dreadnaught (or its equivalent in other races) operate in a bunker complex or in inside a space station? These things are design for field operations not to operate inside buildings. Tau battlesuits are designed to operate outside. That's why they have frikin' jetpacks. The same things goes for Dreadnaughts. Eldars like their things roomy in the first place, but they don't have static fortification and your chance of boarding their ultra fast and heavily armed ships are rather slim. Yeah sure, Space Marines can fight in hangar bays or maybe some of the more spacious main access corridors there are in Tau or human installations, but their size does limit where they can go. I wouldn't trust them to take out a Genestealer defense complex for example. These are designed to be cramped, human size and in corridor face to face with a genestealer, you are probably in deep trouble if you aren't packing a big flamethrower.

PS: You are two full feet smaller than a Space Marine. Back when they were 7 foot tall, they were more believable. Making them bigger was a mistake in my opinion. They went from very large, but still human-ish size to proper giants.

Read my post again.

No building on Earth is designed solely around average human height. Ever.

Ceiling height varies from era to era (I live in a Victorian building, so very high ceilings). And I’d love you to show me a military or commercial installation (of which hypothetical space stations would have to fall into) where they’re designed solely around “how difficult can we make it for someone of above average heigh to move about in”. Because you still need your clear corridors for maintenance and the movement of materiel.

Sure, they might have some areas an Astartes couldn’t visit (think Jeffries Tubes out of Star Trek. But for the most part? And proven by the artwork of the setting we’re discussing? No bother at all for an Astartes.

How could a Space Marine ever move through environments like this?

Or this?

Seriously, it's like none of you have played the greatest 40k game of all time, Space Marine.
The game has you fight through trench works, civilian Habs, secret laboratories, and forge complexes. You fit through every single door you come across.

That’s the Badger.

40k’s architecture is on a massive scale, regardless of species.

I love Space Marine. Awesome game and wonderful environmental design. But I also vastly preferred it when Space Marines were big, rather than gigantic, and I think 15 foot tall primarchs is absolutely ludicrous. Space Marine is DESIGNED for space marines. Obviously.

There are lots of areas in 40K where being that size would be a disadvantage. Smart opponents would take advantage of that. Marines would try to ensure battles were on favourable ground.

Saying there's no tight spaces for Marines in the 40K universe is weird to me.