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Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Heck, there are Astartes from the very first batch who are still kicking around and aren't (completely) insane.

I would even argue that while the majority clearly aren't the nicest of folk, they aren't insane. There are of course exceptions *cough*Kharn*cough* but insanity would mean they weren't capable warriors and warlords, which they are.
Are CSM generally psychopathic and sociopathic? Absolutely, but you don't survive in the Warp or as a Renegade for long just on being good at killing (Kharn explicitly doesn't survive, he gets resurrected by Khorne all the time).
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






It does depend on where exactly the concept of sanity is being placed. From what I have gathered over the years, what is perfectly sane for a Marine would be borderline for a normal human at best. Compared to a human CSM are certainly well into insanity, and even compared to normal Marine psychology they are out there. But some degree of insanity is likely necessary to even survive the conditions they live in. The Warp eats sanity alive.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in us
Lesser Daemon of Chaos





 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
 Gert wrote:
Nobody point out to Voss that the Great Crusade was 200 years long and there were Astartes who served from the start to the end without going bananas.


Heck, there are Astartes from the very first batch who are still kicking around and aren't (completely) insane.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
2x210 wrote:
 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
They always try to make sure the CSM codex is slightly weaker than the SM codex. Ever since that one time it wasn't and Chaos won the Eye of Terror campaign by mistake.


Can't have the bad guys winning apparently


The World That Was would like a word with you...


I wouldn't call that a Chaos victory since it lead to the Stormhosts and the Forces of Order being ever more powerful than they were before, I mean they ended up with their own super soldiers which are reborn heroes from that time. Pyrrhic victory at best.

"I prayed to that corpse for a millenia with no response, what makes you think he'll answer you?"
2000 Loki Snaketongue and the Serpents of Malice  
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






2x210 wrote:
I wouldn't call that a Chaos victory since it lead to the Stormhosts and the Forces of Order being ever more powerful than they were before, I mean they ended up with their own super soldiers which are reborn heroes from that time. Pyrrhic victory at best.

That's not exactly how things went, you're missing out like thousands of years of events in between and that's not even a particularly accurate idea of what is happening presently in AoS.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
It does depend on where exactly the concept of sanity is being placed. From what I have gathered over the years, what is perfectly sane for a Marine would be borderline for a normal human at best. Compared to a human CSM are certainly well into insanity, and even compared to normal Marine psychology they are out there. But some degree of insanity is likely necessary to even survive the conditions they live in. The Warp eats sanity alive.

Yeah for sure the majority of CSM are not sane by modern or even generic 40k human standards but there is still a difference in what would be considered a psychosis and a personality disorder, and CSM largely fall into the latter category.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/17 21:33:05


 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






CSM are very tolerant of nuerodiversity, happily accepting all varieties of mental disability and insanity into their ranks

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Voss wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Spoiler:
Voss wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
That's like saying all vehicles of the same basic shape are the same, which isn't at all true. Having a superficially similar exterior means next to nothing when they use different technology anyways.

So how do you feel about the plethora of Leman Russ tank entries? Or that new Primaris Predator or Speeder?

The different Leman Russes are all just the same tank with different turret weapons. The floaty primaris tanks are just that: tanks that float, instead of using treads, like REAL TANKS should.

Anyways, what is it you're complaining about? That the 30k Bombard tanks don't have 40k rules?

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:They always try to make sure the CSM codex is slightly weaker than the SM codex. Ever since that one time it wasn't and Chaos won the Eye of Terror campaign by mistake.

Yeah, pretty much. Though I still think a lot of the issue is that gw can't stand the idea that CSM can be better than loyalists without using the POWER OF THE CHAOS GODS. Which is why they emphasize the Marked Legions, and always push Marks and Daemonic stuff for the Undivided Legions. Tougher because of Nurgle? Fine. Fightier because of Khorne? Fine. Better because you're a veteran of centuries of constant warfare? Nooooo, we can't have that.


To be fair, centuries of constant warfare would leave the survivors crippled and mad, so having no space god magic to call on, that seems legit.

I know you're just trying to annoy me, but wouldn't that also apply for other long lived factions? Custodes, Eldar, etc?

Nope and Nope.
As for Custodes and Eldar. The latter actually have health care facilities and a complete mental break/disassociation with their lives as soldiers. The former are just oiled up 'hot bois' in leather pants who posed outside a throne room 10,000 years. What issues would they have? Beyond trying to cope with the Great Retcon of 2017...

Marines are intentionally ground down into psychopaths and degenerate from there. Chaos ones are lucky if someone is going staple an arm back on rather than eat it.

Are, you even trying? *sigh*

First off: we already know that there's plenty of CSM who are hundreds of years old, but aren't gibbering lunatics. There's plenty of examples. Psychopaths? Yes, but as you said, that's just the starting point for an Astartes. Is your average CSM more psychopathic than your average loyalist? Yes, probably. But that isn't the kind of "mad" you were talking about, now was it?

Second, as for CSM being "lucky if someone is going to staple an arm back on rather than eat it": 10th Company was generally considered a "poor" warband, without a lot of resources. But they still had enough access to bionics that they could give them out to standard human crewmembers if they were deemed "important enough" for them. So they'd definitely have enough for the Astartes of the warband. Better supplied warbands would have even more access. So, no, they wouldn't be crippled, either.

Finally, you're initial statement has a big problem: it assumes that you're more likely to go "mad" from centuries of constant warfare than from centuries of constant warfare and hanging out with Lovecraftian Horrors.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Tzeentch's Fan Girl






Southern New Hampshire

2x210 wrote:
 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
 Gert wrote:
Nobody point out to Voss that the Great Crusade was 200 years long and there were Astartes who served from the start to the end without going bananas.


Heck, there are Astartes from the very first batch who are still kicking around and aren't (completely) insane.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
2x210 wrote:
 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
They always try to make sure the CSM codex is slightly weaker than the SM codex. Ever since that one time it wasn't and Chaos won the Eye of Terror campaign by mistake.


Can't have the bad guys winning apparently


The World That Was would like a word with you...


I wouldn't call that a Chaos victory since it lead to the Stormhosts and the Forces of Order being ever more powerful than they were before, I mean they ended up with their own super soldiers which are reborn heroes from that time. Pyrrhic victory at best.


I mean, they ended a freaking world - I'd call that a total victory. And then, when they saw the Mortal Realms thriving, they attacked and forced even the mighty Sigmar to take his ball and go home.

She/Her

"There are no problems that cannot be solved with cannons." - Chief Engineer Boris Krauss of Nuln

Kid_Kyoto wrote:"Don't be a dick" and "This is a family wargame" are good rules of thumb.


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Made in gb
The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

A victory that results in people needing to act like they're on horseback or talk like a pirate is pyrrhic at best.

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Biloxi, MS USA

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

I mean, they ended a freaking world - I'd call that a total victory. And then, when they saw the Mortal Realms thriving, they attacked and forced even the mighty Sigmar to take his ball and go home.


They ended a world all but handed to them on a platter by Teclis.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/17 22:44:27


You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
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Hallowed is the All Pie
The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was 
   
Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh




How is all this BS even remotely related to the CSM handbook? Why don't you take this discussion elsewhere?
   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Finally, you're initial statement has a big problem: it assumes that you're more likely to go "mad" from centuries of constant warfare than from centuries of constant warfare and hanging out with Lovecraftian Horrors.

Actually, yeah. Having actual cosmic horrors around that are made out of basic recognizable emotions, and you & others can definitely can see and touch and shoot in the face? That actually would be fairly grounding for trying to deal with the fact that the 40k universe is so crap. There's actually a reason, it's standing right there and it isn't even vaguely unknowable or unrecognizable. Its just a personification of wrath, despair, excess or ambition, and it exists to make the universe worse.

NinthMusketeer wrote:CSM are very tolerant of nuerodiversity, happily accepting all varieties of mental disability and insanity into their ranks

Gross. Don't bring real world neurodiversity into this gamers & game designers' cartoonish caricature of outdated 20th century psychology.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/18 00:08:50


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Imma just quote the Black Crusade Core Rulebook on this:

BC Core Rulebook, page 278 wrote:
Insanity
The mere fact of his survival means that the mind of even the least experienced Heretic has been scourged by sights and knowledge so blasphemous and so horrific that they would have flayed bare the mind of a lesser man. Heretics in Black Crusade are considered to already have 100 Insanity Points, to have lost their minds, an to have come through the other side of madness a functional but fundamentally changed person. While heretics do not accrue Insanity Points as characters do in other Warhammer 40,000 games, over time they do tend to acquire small mental tics known as Disorders.
Now without going into the nitty gritty of this, this would be caused by truly terrifying sights - facing down a Greater Daemon, looking directly into the Warp unprotected - gak like that.

The Disorders were based on Chaos God alignment, so tended to amp up aspects of worship/attitutes towards people through the lens of a Chaos God.

So, a Khorne follower could end up with a need to cover himself in blood or lose concentration. A Slaaneshi follower might become so arrogant to those he sees as beneath him that he just can't get along with 'lesser' beings. A Nurgle follower might become so friendly towards others that he becomes very bad at keeping secrets and decieving people. And a Tzeentch follower might become obsessed with the number 9 to the point of... well... insanity!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/18 00:36:49


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in au
Blood Sacrifice to Khorne




Those arguing about whether CSM are insane should read Shroud of Night. The main characters are an AL warband that spent centuries fighting in a battleroyal in the eye of terror against the greatest champions of chaos, won and did so without getting corrupted.
Not only are they the most sane characters in the story but they make the Imperial Fists look irrational in comparison.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I mean, its probably easier for authors to write CSM protagonists as not wacked on chaos juice insanity all the time. Not that it doesn't make compelling characters (just look at the Lords of Silence), but a lot of the time, CSM seem to come across rather deluded than actual insane. Dwelling on past glories, going full force into what creed or god they worship, etc.
   
Made in de
Aspirant Tech-Adept






Resk wrote:
Those arguing about whether CSM are insane should read Shroud of Night.



They should read this:

Spoiler:
For over ten thousand years have I lived,”intoned the Chaos warrior. ”For over a hundred centuries have I fought the long war. Eighty-eight million hours cannot contain my hatred.”

For over a day now the space hulk Reaper of Souls had held its orbit over the doomed planet. Brother-Captain Karlsen studied the world visible through the huge art of the stained glass window. It glittered like a jewel in the blackness of space. Its greenness mocked him. Down there people went about their daily business. They lived their lives secure in the knowledge that their Emperor and his mighty legions protected them.

Karlsen laughed his hollow laugh, it bubbled horribly from his ruined throat. Today that ended.

Their stupid ordered lives were over. They were insects, dwelling in an insects’ nest. They lived insect lives and never understood the true nature of the universe, a place of predators who preyed on body and soul.

The fold down there were sheep. Let the sheep look up, thought Karlsen. Let them know the wolves are about to descend on the fold. Let them pray to their senile god and know that he cannot save them.

Their world will burn, he swore. They will pray for death. Their weapons will not save them. Their armies will not protect them. Their pitiful faith will not shield them. They will die and their souls will be consigned screaming to the warp. This I swear by the honour of my Chapter and all the powers of Chaos. But for now let them wait, for I must celebrate the Dark Communion.

He looked down at the throne in which he rested. The ancient brass was moulded in the shape of a mythical beast of Old Earth. Life support tubes connected it to the re-breathers of his ancient armour. The ten thousand year—old runes flickered and glowed in the chill darkness, sending out messages that only a few now living could read and fully understand.

Karlsen studied the walls of this ancient chamber with his baleful red glare, noting as if for the first time the gargoyles that guarded each doorway and sign of the Eye of Horus that enclosed the stained glass window. He noticed the cracked and flaking tiles that covered the ceramite floor and recalled that once they had contained a mosaic depicting the attack on the Emperor’s Palace during the long ago battle for Earth. The picture was long gone, worn away by a million footfalls down the long centuries.

Karlsen lashed the metal tentacles that replaced his left hand and reflexively worked the action of the bolter fused to the stump of his right wrist. There were times he felt like this space hulk, like a strange agglomeration of random bits hastily and crudely connected to an ancient central core.

He knew the space hulk was a jumble of the flotsam and jetsam of interstellar space that had been sucked though the warp to the daemon worlds, had drifted for centuries till it had been integrated into this vast vessel. Whatever shape the hulk had originally possessed was long gone. He was like that — a millennia of mutation, of gifts from his patron Chaos Power had cost him his original shape. No longer was he a tall, powerful Space Marine garbed in ceramite armour. Now he was an inhuman thing, a patchwork of many strange pieces. Only the original body shape and the mind was still Karlsen’s, and sometimes he was not sure even of that.

Could any mind remain intact after ten thousand years. Would it not splinter under the impact of all that accumulated experience? Would not the years bring madness? Instinctively Karlsen knew that he had gone mad many times. There had been centuries when he had gibbered insanely, years when he had reiterated a single crazed chant. He knew that he had lost so much. No mind could hold all his memories. They overflowed like wine from an overfilled cup. It was part of the gift and the curse of his immortality.

That was why, when they could, he and his men celebrated the Dark Communion. They preserved what was important. They stayed themselves and did not devolve into howling Chaos Spawn. In the end, when all was said and done, they were Space Marines, and they had a Space Marine’s pride.

Karlsen cleared his mind as he had learned so long ago. He turned his gaze inward. He needed no drugs, no chants, none of the aids and adjuncts that lesser sorcerers used. He had ten millennia of practice and his powers were strong. He envisioned a vast cavern, the walls of which were lined with pigeon-holes. In each pigeon-hole was a glowing gem. Each glowing gem was a memory. One that he had chosen to preserve. It would remain in this protected space within his mind for as long as he would live. Karlsen had achieved the first level of the Ritual.

Now he reviewed last year, winnowing his memories for deeds he wished to preserve. Was there anything worth keeping, worth preserving from time's slow erosion. That battle on Kadavah, perhaps, where they had aided those pitiful rebels against their Imperial masters, and where he had killed that Blood Angel in the desecrated rubble of the shrine of the Emperor’s Ascension? Yes, he thought, recalling the moment with satisfaction, that was worth preserving.

He visualised the scene clearly. The Blood Angel crawling from the ruins, his armour all pitted and cracked. Nearby lay the huge skull of a destroyed Warhound Titan. In the distance loomed the skeletal remains of Kadavah’s skyscraped towers. He had the moment perfectly. He could taste the dry burned taint in the air, feel the kick of his bolter, hear the groans of the wounded, smell the stink of molten metal, sense the departure of the Blood Angel’s soul. He fixed the memory, reduced it to something hard and bright and pure, then left it in its assigned place. There was nothing else he wanted to preserve.

Now came the next stage. He examined his memories. Now he exulted in who he was and how he came to be. He reached for the gems of memory, and they came to him, one by one.

He was on Prospero, homeworld of his Order. From the balcony of his tower he could see the mile-high spire where dwelled Magnus, Primarch of his Order. The air of the city crackled with hundreds of potent enchantments. His spellbook floated in front of him. He knew that Magnus had been right to defy the Emperor’s Interdict against the study of magic. It was so fascinating and they had learned so much. Soon they would use their spells to smite the Emperor’s enemies and the ruler of mankind would be forced to see the error of his ways,

I was a fool then, thought Karlsen. We were all fools. He reached for another memory.

Anger at the betrayal filled his mind. The Emperor had declared them heretics, outcasts. Their knowledge was deemed forbidden. They were to be purged. The Space Wolves had been despatched to cleanse Prospero. They were forced to flee. In that moment Karlsen realised that the Emperor was a fool and all his followers were dupes. He was jealous of any power he did not understand. Perhaps he feared a potential rival. Whatever his reasons it did not matter. The Thousand Sons must take to their ships and accept Warmaster Horus’ offer of sanctuary. It was their only chance of survival in the turbulent period of civil war, the only way to protect what they had gained.

Another scene filled his mind.

He aimed his bolter at the Loyalist and pulled the trigger. The man screamed and fell. Laser fire scorched the pavement all around him but the shimmer of his protective spells warded it from his body. In the distance he could see the mountain-high silver walls that protected the Emperor’s palace. Overhead the blue sky of Earth was filled with ships. This was the final battle. Today the fate of the galaxy would be decided.

The scene melted into another memory of that awesome battle.

He stood before the gleaming black valves of the Ultimate Gate, the towering portal that guarded the entrance to the Inner Palace. All around him he sensed the press and surge of bodies. Overhead an angel-winged man in blood red armour wrestled with a huge bat-winged daemon. With a final mighty surge the daemon cast the man down. Karlsen heard granite crack and his roar of triumph mingled with ten thousand other voices.

He watched the Earth recede behind him through the armourglass window of the spacecraft. The taste of defeat was bitter in his mouth. The Emperor had defeated Warmaster Horus. Loyalist reinforcements approached Earth, bearing the accursed Space Wolves and the Dark Angels. They were defeated.

The rebellion was over. Now they must flee to the edge of the galaxy, to the one place their foes would not dare pursue them, to the Eye of Terror.

He stood amid the rubble of Prospero and watched the sky change colour. His voice mingled with the chanting of his brothers. Chain lightning crackled from horizon to horizon. Pain filled him as he forced his mind to the task. The towering presence of Magnus was there, calming him, reassuring him that what they attempted could be done, that they could indeed shift an entire world through the warp to the Eye, that their ancient world could be theirs again.

He raced down a long street between low squat buildings. Behind him he heard the whoosh of displaced air, turning he snapped off a shot with his bolter. The long sleek Eldar jet—bike jinked to one side and the shot ricocheted from the walls.

He looked in horror at his hand. It was starting to change. The fingers were lengthening. Already they had fused with his gauntlet and he could not take it off. Was this the result of long term exposure to the warping influence of Chaos within the Eye or something else? His armour was already changing, flowing into a new style. Tiny metal skulls covered his belt, a daemon’s head leered from his shoulder guard. Fear of the change filled him.

He stood in the long hall of a tumbled down building. The roof had long ago collapsed and cold stars glittered in the sky. The daemon crouched in front of him, confined by the pentacle and the power of his will. It snarled and flickers of warpflame emerged from its mouth. It did not want to share its wisdom with him but he knew that soon it would.

He wrapped his tentacles round the throat of the blue—armoured Ultramarine. The man struggled and writhed in his grasp, frantically trying to break his grip and bring his bolter to bear. It was a hopeless struggle. Slowly, inexorably, Karlsen lifted him and with one mighty heave threw him off the top of the tower. He watched with satisfaction as the man tumbled headlong to the ground over a mile below. The fight was over. The last Ultramarine on the planet was dead. The governor’s palace was theirs.

On and on it went. Memories flickered through his mind, reminding him of ancient triumphs and ancient defeats, of all the things he desired to remember and some of the things he would like to forget but could not.

The touch of his sergeant brought him from his reveries. He looked up into Caine’s twisted goat face,”What is it?” he asked.

”Ships rise from the planet, Brother Captain. Defenders come to meet us.”

Good, thought Karlsen. Perhaps this planet shall provide us with some sport after all.


It's from one of the three 2nd edition books, maybe the rulebook, and I guess it's from Bill King. It was better than the whole Codex: Chaos fluff later.
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Voss wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Finally, you're initial statement has a big problem: it assumes that you're more likely to go "mad" from centuries of constant warfare than from centuries of constant warfare and hanging out with Lovecraftian Horrors.

Actually, yeah. Having actual cosmic horrors around that are made out of basic recognizable emotions, and you & others can definitely can see and touch and shoot in the face? That actually would be fairly grounding for trying to deal with the fact that the 40k universe is so crap. There's actually a reason, it's standing right there and it isn't even vaguely unknowable or unrecognizable. Its just a personification of wrath, despair, excess or ambition, and it exists to make the universe worse.

Now that's an interesting take. But......it still doesn't show that a CSM who doesn't worship any of the Chaos Gods is any more likely to be "mad" than one who does. A CSM who doesn't worship the Chaos Gods can still see those cosmic horrors and "shoot them in the face" just as well as one who does. If the simple knowledge of such things makes you "more grounded" with the 40k universe, then it applies to all CSM. You can't spend time in The Eye without knowing about Daemons, after all. But you can do it without worshipping them.

@Dryaktylus: Thanks for the excerpt! It was a good read.
   
Made in jp
Boosting Space Marine Biker





Stuck in the snow.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Imma just quote the Black Crusade Core Rulebook on this:

BC Core Rulebook, page 278 wrote:
Insanity
The mere fact of his survival means that the mind of even the least experienced Heretic has been scourged by sights and knowledge so blasphemous and so horrific that they would have flayed bare the mind of a lesser man. Heretics in Black Crusade are considered to already have 100 Insanity Points, to have lost their minds, an to have come through the other side of madness a functional but fundamentally changed person. While heretics do not accrue Insanity Points as characters do in other Warhammer 40,000 games, over time they do tend to acquire small mental tics known as Disorders.
Now without going into the nitty gritty of this, this would be caused by truly terrifying sights - facing down a Greater Daemon, looking directly into the Warp unprotected - gak like that.

The Disorders were based on Chaos God alignment, so tended to amp up aspects of worship/attitutes towards people through the lens of a Chaos God.

So, a Khorne follower could end up with a need to cover himself in blood or lose concentration. A Slaaneshi follower might become so arrogant to those he sees as beneath him that he just can't get along with 'lesser' beings. A Nurgle follower might become so friendly towards others that he becomes very bad at keeping secrets and decieving people. And a Tzeentch follower might become obsessed with the number 9 to the point of... well... insanity!


I own Dark Crusade and Tome of Plague (sadly couldn't get the other three before they disappeared into the ether) so thanks for your contributions on that. Embarrassingly I still haven't managed to run a game and don't have my copy near me unfortunately so I have a question.

If Disorders were fundamentally god marked, how did you handle that for Undivided characters? Did they just take a random mix from the various marked disorders?
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

If you were unaligned**, the GM just picked the table for you, representing that even though you may not be stuck on the path of worship to any particular Chaos God, one of them may have wormed their way into your mind without you even realising.



**On that note - 'unaligned'. It's an interesting word, and I use it rather than Undivided quite intentionally.

When our group was play-testing Black Crusade, I brought up that they had written 'unaligned' everywhere rather than Undivided. The response I got was that it was a directive from on high and that GW was moving away from the concept of Chaos Undivided. When I eventually went on to write for each of the 4 Tome books for Black Crusade, this was further emphasises in the style guides we received - always unaligned, never Undivided.

It does seem that GW is reversing that trend. Perhaps it was a holdover from the Days of Merritt, like how Genestealer Cults weren't even allowed to be referenced whilst he was around?


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/18 03:26:27


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in gb
Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord




Chaos lord with jump pack, the really old iron warriors warsmith and my boy Huron are all going oop as of today. Sign of things to come?
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Not just them though. It's the plastic ones going away that are a bigger worry.

I mean, some of this does not bode well:

Heroes of the Chapter - Sure, completely redundant now that there's a Primaris Ancient on sale separately. Not one, not two, not three, but four Space Marine Captains, including two plastic ones and, more significantly, the one with all the weapon options. Say good bye to any customisation in Marines 2.0 I guess. Add to that the Techmarine, and his attendant Servitors. The Chaplain with a Jump Pack, so say good bye to that option I suppose. And finally the plastic Terminator Librarian. That leaves only the Blood Angel Termy Libby on sale, and that's out of stock. They're gutting the First Born range.

This change all but confirms that Chaos are losing the Jump Pack option for Lords, meaning that the only power armour Chaos Lord load-out will be Hammer McMonopose here (unless Chaos Lords also get "Accursed Weapons", allowing the Chosen box to rep any of them). I imagine this means that the Chaos Terminator Lord will only have access to Combi-Bolters, Combi-Meltas, Power Fists, Chainfists, Power Axes or Lightning Claws (or 1 Accursed Weapon or 2 Accursed Weapons).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/03/18 15:37:36


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Dudeface wrote:
Chaos lord with jump pack, the really old iron warriors warsmith and my boy Huron are all going oop as of today. Sign of things to come?

Oh
   
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Barpharanges







 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Not just them though. It's the plastic ones going away that are a bigger worry.

I mean, some of this does not bode well:

Heroes of the Chapter - Sure, completely redundant now that there's a Primaris Ancient on sale separately. Not one, not two, not three, but four Space Marine Captains, including two plastic ones and, more significantly, the one with all the weapon options. Say good bye to any customisation in Marines 2.0 I guess. Add to that the Techmarine, and his attendant Servitors. The Chaplain with a Jump Pack, so say good bye to that option I suppose. And finally the plastic Terminator Librarian. That leaves only the Blood Angel Termy Libby on sale, and that's out of stock. They're gutting the First Born range.

This change all but confirms that Chaos are losing the Jump Pack option for Lords, meaning that the only power armour Chaos Lord load-out will be Hammer McMonopose here (unless Chaos Lords also get "Accursed Weapons", allowing the Chosen box to rep any of them). I imagine this means that the Chaos Terminator Lord will only have access to Combi-Bolters, Combi-Meltas, Power Fists, Chainfists, Power Axes or Lightning Claws (or 1 Accursed Weapon or 2 Accursed Weapons).



This is good actually - it helps make the game simpler so new players (who are helpless cattle and cannot understand the concept of conversions or kitbashing) from making mistakes/s.

The biggest indicator someone is a loser is them complaining about 3d printers or piracy.  
   
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RogueSangre



West Sussex, UK

Huron has a novel coming out in the next few months so I wouldn’t be surprised if we see a new plastic model to replace the resin one come out around the same time.
   
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Tzeentch's Fan Girl






Southern New Hampshire

Haven't some of the Rumor Engine pics hinted at a new Huron model? Or maybe the New Year's preview?

She/Her

"There are no problems that cannot be solved with cannons." - Chief Engineer Boris Krauss of Nuln

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Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord




 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Haven't some of the Rumor Engine pics hinted at a new Huron model? Or maybe the New Year's preview?


Sort of, it was a hand with a flamer looking nozzle in the middle but it was the wrong arm unless they flipped it for max trolling.

Spoiler:

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/18 16:32:07


 
   
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2nd Lieutenant





Let be honest. It's been rumoured for years first born were going the way of the Dodo. Unsurprisingly it's been neither as quick as some predicted, but as inevitable as some feared. I suspect they are doing as stock starts to run low / the maths don't support another production run
.
   
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Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord




 Dawnbringer wrote:
Let be honest. It's been rumoured for years first born were going the way of the Dodo. Unsurprisingly it's been neither as quick as some predicted, but as inevitable as some feared. I suspect they are doing as stock starts to run low / the maths don't support another production run
.


The context for the concerns here in the chaos thread was rumour there wouldn't be a jump pack option for lords and now the official jump pack model is on last chance. Conversely there wasn't mention of a new Huron so it might be happenstance, likewise supposedly mutilators are gone but the models are not on last chance.
   
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The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Dawnbringer wrote:
Let be honest. It's been rumoured for years first born were going the way of the Dodo. Unsurprisingly it's been neither as quick as some predicted, but as inevitable as some feared. I suspect they are doing as stock starts to run low / the maths don't support another production run
.

What do "Firstborn" have to do with Chaos Space Marines? Changes to the Loyalist product line shouldn't affect CSM.
   
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Lesser Daemon of Chaos





So this all but confirms jumppack lords are really gone.

Ohh well guess I'll skip this new Codex and go back to my Blood Angels for another edition. GW clearly doesn't want my money and who am I to go against them?

"I prayed to that corpse for a millenia with no response, what makes you think he'll answer you?"
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Regular Dakkanaut




 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Dawnbringer wrote:
Let be honest. It's been rumoured for years first born were going the way of the Dodo. Unsurprisingly it's been neither as quick as some predicted, but as inevitable as some feared. I suspect they are doing as stock starts to run low / the maths don't support another production run
.

What do "Firstborn" have to do with Chaos Space Marines? Changes to the Loyalist product line shouldn't affect CSM.

All Chaos Marines are firstborn and GW seems pretty insistent on killing all interest in the army so maybe that's the connection?
   
 
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