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JNAProductions wrote: They're either Characters (and so benefit from LoS), not Characters but have a rule that lets them use LoS or otherwise stay safe, or they're just dead.
Given GW's track record with CSM, I'm guessing option 1 or 3.
I'd wager 3 tbh, I'd hope they're cheap enough to not really matter though. Does make you wonder if they can use rhinos however.
Doubtful. Death Guard Rhinos can only carry BUBONIC ASTARTES units and Thousand Sons Rhinos can only carry ARCANA ASTARTES units, which are both all Marines. Apparently the mortals are expected to walk.
JNAProductions wrote: They're either Characters (and so benefit from LoS), not Characters but have a rule that lets them use LoS or otherwise stay safe, or they're just dead.
Given GW's track record with CSM, I'm guessing option 1 or 3.
I'd wager 3 tbh, I'd hope they're cheap enough to not really matter though. Does make you wonder if they can use rhinos however.
Doubtful. Death Guard Rhinos can only carry BUBONIC ASTARTES units and Thousand Sons Rhinos can only carry ARCANA ASTARTES units, which are both all Marines. Apparently the mortals are expected to walk.
With cultists, renegade guard (maybe) and mutants ontop of a cultist HQ, it'll be really hard to justify treating all those units like they do in the other books though.
Edit: unless we get chimera thrown in.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/28 18:53:33
JNAProductions wrote: They're either Characters (and so benefit from LoS), not Characters but have a rule that lets them use LoS or otherwise stay safe, or they're just dead.
Given GW's track record with CSM, I'm guessing option 1 or 3.
I'd wager 3 tbh, I'd hope they're cheap enough to not really matter though. Does make you wonder if they can use rhinos however.
Doubtful. Death Guard Rhinos can only carry BUBONIC ASTARTES units and Thousand Sons Rhinos can only carry ARCANA ASTARTES units, which are both all Marines. Apparently the mortals are expected to walk.
With cultists, renegade guard (maybe) and mutants ontop of a cultist HQ, it'll be really hard to justify treating all those units like they do in the other books though.
Edit: unless we get chimera thrown in.
Since when has gw ever tried to justify whatever ridiculous that they decide to saddle CSM with?
JNAProductions wrote: They're either Characters (and so benefit from LoS), not Characters but have a rule that lets them use LoS or otherwise stay safe, or they're just dead.
Given GW's track record with CSM, I'm guessing option 1 or 3.
I'd wager 3 tbh, I'd hope they're cheap enough to not really matter though. Does make you wonder if they can use rhinos however.
Doubtful. Death Guard Rhinos can only carry BUBONIC ASTARTES units and Thousand Sons Rhinos can only carry ARCANA ASTARTES units, which are both all Marines. Apparently the mortals are expected to walk.
With cultists, renegade guard (maybe) and mutants ontop of a cultist HQ, it'll be really hard to justify treating all those units like they do in the other books though.
Edit: unless we get chimera thrown in.
Since when has gw ever tried to justify whatever ridiculous that they decide to saddle CSM with?
I dunno, I imagine they want to sell their new units but if they're stuck as 1 per heretic astartes and get no support in any manner then they'll beat doa and they won't want half the new kits to be dead weight.
JNAProductions wrote: They're either Characters (and so benefit from LoS), not Characters but have a rule that lets them use LoS or otherwise stay safe, or they're just dead.
Given GW's track record with CSM, I'm guessing option 1 or 3.
I'd wager 3 tbh, I'd hope they're cheap enough to not really matter though. Does make you wonder if they can use rhinos however.
Doubtful. Death Guard Rhinos can only carry BUBONIC ASTARTES units and Thousand Sons Rhinos can only carry ARCANA ASTARTES units, which are both all Marines. Apparently the mortals are expected to walk.
With cultists, renegade guard (maybe) and mutants ontop of a cultist HQ, it'll be really hard to justify treating all those units like they do in the other books though.
Edit: unless we get chimera thrown in.
Since when has gw ever tried to justify whatever ridiculous that they decide to saddle CSM with?
This, unless of course gw decides to put an actual Latd /R&H list in there (complete one) then i just don't see these working.
Further they pretty much are Doa, they don't get traits / synergy seemingly, a banner with +2 for ld is not gonna make cultists work and neither will it make traitor guardsmen work
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/28 19:24:36
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
It's possible that the squad of cultists won't have the [character] keyword, dunno if that was covered yet. They may also have something that gives them the bodyguard rule if they're surrounded by cultists, which makes it a lot easier to protect them.
JNAProductions wrote: They're either Characters (and so benefit from LoS), not Characters but have a rule that lets them use LoS or otherwise stay safe, or they're just dead.
Given GW's track record with CSM, I'm guessing option 1 or 3.
I'd wager 3 tbh, I'd hope they're cheap enough to not really matter though. Does make you wonder if they can use rhinos however.
Doubtful. Death Guard Rhinos can only carry BUBONIC ASTARTES units and Thousand Sons Rhinos can only carry ARCANA ASTARTES units, which are both all Marines. Apparently the mortals are expected to walk.
With cultists, renegade guard (maybe) and mutants ontop of a cultist HQ, it'll be really hard to justify treating all those units like they do in the other books though.
Edit: unless we get chimera thrown in.
Since when has gw ever tried to justify whatever ridiculous that they decide to saddle CSM with?
I dunno, I imagine they want to sell their new units but if they're stuck as 1 per heretic astartes and get no support in any manner then they'll beat doa and they won't want half the new kits to be dead weight.
Yes, they'll want to sell the new kits, but how many times have they put out a shiny new kit and then end up giving it lackluster rules? New models doesn't equal good rules, you know that just as well as I do. CSM Cultists will have the same restriction as Death Guard and Thousand Sons Cultists. It's a pattern.
Not Online!!! wrote:This, unless of course gw decides to put an actual Latd /R&H list in there (complete one) then i just don't see these working.
Further they pretty much are Doa, they don't get traits / synergy seemingly, a banner with +2 for ld is not gonna make cultists work and neither will it make traitor guardsmen work
I'm still wondering why those Traitor Guardsmen haven't shown up in these rumours yet. Maybe they hadn't figured out what to do with them when they wrote these playtest rules?
Edit: Speaking of things that are missing.
@Clockworkchris: I noticed that Raptor Strike isn't in those leaked Night Lords stratagems. Do you mind asking if we're keeping it, and if we are, is it staying the same?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/28 20:12:11
JNAProductions wrote: They're either Characters (and so benefit from LoS), not Characters but have a rule that lets them use LoS or otherwise stay safe, or they're just dead.
Given GW's track record with CSM, I'm guessing option 1 or 3.
I'd wager 3 tbh, I'd hope they're cheap enough to not really matter though. Does make you wonder if they can use rhinos however.
Doubtful. Death Guard Rhinos can only carry BUBONIC ASTARTES units and Thousand Sons Rhinos can only carry ARCANA ASTARTES units, which are both all Marines. Apparently the mortals are expected to walk.
With cultists, renegade guard (maybe) and mutants ontop of a cultist HQ, it'll be really hard to justify treating all those units like they do in the other books though.
Edit: unless we get chimera thrown in.
Since when has gw ever tried to justify whatever ridiculous that they decide to saddle CSM with?
I dunno, I imagine they want to sell their new units but if they're stuck as 1 per heretic astartes and get no support in any manner then they'll beat doa and they won't want half the new kits to be dead weight.
Yes, they'll want to sell the new kits, but how many times have they put out a shiny new kit and then end up giving it lackluster rules? New models doesn't equal good rules, you know that just as well as I do. CSM Cultists will have the same restriction as Death Guard and Thousand Sons Cultists. It's a pattern.
Oh I know, but given we're about to have 4 "cultist" units in theory, that's not really going to work or make sense in the context of the army. They need to handle them differently then roll the same out to DG/Tsons maybe next time round.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Until 10th, where Gray Knights, Sisters of Silence, 'Nids and probably a bunch of random bastards start getting rules where they ignore Warp Saves.
In a weird way I love how bad the state of the game is that you can post something like this and not a single fanboi will even attempt to argue against it.
Thanks for the continuing leaks clockworkchris.
My predictions for 9th edition CSM strength:
(1) There will be a strong Daemon Engine list right out of the gates. Lord Discordant, Warpsmith (maybe), 6~9 Daemon Engines, maybe 3 Volkite Contemptors (assuming the CSM codex comes out before the next Chapter Approved) if they get the +1 to hit from the Warpsmith.
(2) There will also be a strong Daemonkin list right out of the gates. Master of Possession(s), 30 Possessed, 30 Warp Talons, 6 Obliterators.
(3) You might see these two souped with a small amount of Daemons to get advance and charge or re-roll charges, giving up the CSM doctrines. Basically, the doctrines might be weak enough for this to be a better option.
(4) The mortal portion of the army (Apostle, Sorcerer, Cultists, Mutants, Legionaries, Chosen, Terminators, Bikers, Raptors, Havocs) will be strong-ish but overshadowed by the daemon engines/kin. Think GSC vs. Tau/Custodes or CWE vs. Harlies.
I'm basically confident the power creep will continue and that certain datasheets are just not going to be costed correctly compared to earlier codexes.
I'm not sure what Legion is going to be best though. I think this is partially as I can't actually comprehend a daemon engine with an extra rule beyond it's datasheet after being burned for so long by 8th edition CSM and then the 9th edition DG/TS codexes. I just can't believe they will get the Legion trait and doctine/super doctrine until I see it in writing.
JNAProductions wrote: They're either Characters (and so benefit from LoS), not Characters but have a rule that lets them use LoS or otherwise stay safe, or they're just dead.
Given GW's track record with CSM, I'm guessing option 1 or 3.
I'd wager 3 tbh, I'd hope they're cheap enough to not really matter though. Does make you wonder if they can use rhinos however.
Doubtful. Death Guard Rhinos can only carry BUBONIC ASTARTES units and Thousand Sons Rhinos can only carry ARCANA ASTARTES units, which are both all Marines. Apparently the mortals are expected to walk.
With cultists, renegade guard (maybe) and mutants ontop of a cultist HQ, it'll be really hard to justify treating all those units like they do in the other books though.
Edit: unless we get chimera thrown in.
Since when has gw ever tried to justify whatever ridiculous that they decide to saddle CSM with?
I dunno, I imagine they want to sell their new units but if they're stuck as 1 per heretic astartes and get no support in any manner then they'll beat doa and they won't want half the new kits to be dead weight.
Yes, they'll want to sell the new kits, but how many times have they put out a shiny new kit and then end up giving it lackluster rules? New models doesn't equal good rules, you know that just as well as I do. CSM Cultists will have the same restriction as Death Guard and Thousand Sons Cultists. It's a pattern.
Oh I know, but given we're about to have 4 "cultist" units in theory, that's not really going to work or make sense in the context of the army. They need to handle them differently then roll the same out to DG/Tsons maybe next time round.
Eh, I'm wondering if it's going to end up being more like 2. The "Mutant" and "Possessed" Cultists might end up just being the same thing (remember, there are BIG Mutants and SMALL Mutants), and the complete absence of the Traitor Guardsmen from these rumours has me wondering if they'll be in their own R&H/LatD codex, or in a separate list in the CSM codex like Harlequins are in the CWE codex.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Until 10th, where Gray Knights, Sisters of Silence, 'Nids and probably a bunch of random bastards start getting rules where they ignore Warp Saves.
In a weird way I love how bad the state of the game is that you can post something like this and not a single fanboi will even attempt to argue against it.
Thanks for the continuing leaks clockworkchris.
My predictions for 9th edition CSM strength:
(1) There will be a strong Daemon Engine list right out of the gates. Lord Discordant, Warpsmith (maybe), 6~9 Daemon Engines, maybe 3 Volkite Contemptors (assuming the CSM codex comes out before the next Chapter Approved) if they get the +1 to hit from the Warpsmith.
(2) There will also be a strong Daemonkin list right out of the gates. Master of Possession(s), 30 Possessed, 30 Warp Talons, 6 Obliterators.
(3) You might see these two souped with a small amount of Daemons to get advance and charge or re-roll charges, giving up the CSM doctrines. Basically, the doctrines might be weak enough for this to be a better option.
(4) The mortal portion of the army (Apostle, Sorcerer, Cultists, Mutants, Legionaries, Chosen, Terminators, Bikers, Raptors, Havocs) will be strong-ish but overshadowed by the daemon engines/kin. Think GSC vs. Tau/Custodes or CWE vs. Harlies.
I'm basically confident the power creep will continue and that certain datasheets are just not going to be costed correctly compared to earlier codexes.
I'm not sure what Legion is going to be best though. I think this is partially as I can't actually comprehend a daemon engine with an extra rule beyond it's datasheet after being burned for so long by 8th edition CSM and then the 9th edition DG/TS codexes. I just can't believe they will get the Legion trait and doctine/super doctrine until I see it in writing.
As a red corsair player, having built in advance & charge has always been nice for my disco lords, if it applied to crawlers and fiends too it'll be happy go fun time.
EviscerationPlague wrote: We don't need rules negating thr negation of Invul. We need no negation of Invul to begin with, or at least total negation.
All invul negation does is act as mortal wounds that don't spill over across units.
EDIT: And honestly Daemons have always had issues with things that ignored invuls. They never really felt like they were extra-dimensional since they follow the physical laws of the universe far too well.
Maybe just turn their invul into an armour save that ignores AP. Mortals would still skip through but "ignores invuls" wouldn't be a thing anymore.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/29 00:29:59
EviscerationPlague wrote: We don't need rules negating thr negation of Invul. We need no negation of Invul to begin with, or at least total negation.
All invul negation does is act as mortal wounds that don't spill over across units.
EDIT: And honestly Daemons have always had issues with things that ignored invuls. They never really felt like they were extra-dimensional since they follow the physical laws of the universe far too well.
Maybe just turn their invul into an armour save that ignores AP. Mortals would still skip through but "ignores invuls" wouldn't be a thing anymore.
Soooo.......some kind of save.....that is, uhhh.....invulnerable, to AP? That kinda thing?
EviscerationPlague wrote: We don't need rules negating thr negation of Invul. We need no negation of Invul to begin with, or at least total negation.
All invul negation does is act as mortal wounds that don't spill over across units.
EDIT: And honestly Daemons have always had issues with things that ignored invuls. They never really felt like they were extra-dimensional since they follow the physical laws of the universe far too well.
Maybe just turn their invul into an armour save that ignores AP. Mortals would still skip through but "ignores invuls" wouldn't be a thing anymore.
Soooo.......some kind of save.....that is, uhhh.....invulnerable, to AP? That kinda thing?
No, think more like Nighthaunt from AoS who have an armour save that can't be increased or reduced by any modifiers. It's still an armour save so anything that ignores armour would still get through but if they get an armour save then it can't be modified by AP or any other rules.
Yeah, high AP ignore invul is just MWs with pointless extra complexity. A simple rule of the MWs only being dealt to one model would be much easier for everyone involved.
Of course making it so damage boils over by default and is counterbalanced by attacks being inherently unable to deal damage greater than the target's wound characteristic would make a lot of things easier for everyone involved.
EviscerationPlague wrote: We don't need rules negating thr negation of Invul. We need no negation of Invul to begin with, or at least total negation.
All invul negation does is act as mortal wounds that don't spill over across units.
EDIT: And honestly Daemons have always had issues with things that ignored invuls. They never really felt like they were extra-dimensional since they follow the physical laws of the universe far too well.
Maybe just turn their invul into an armour save that ignores AP. Mortals would still skip through but "ignores invuls" wouldn't be a thing anymore.
Soooo.......some kind of save.....that is, uhhh.....invulnerable, to AP? That kinda thing?
No, think more like Nighthaunt from AoS who have an armour save that can't be increased or reduced by any modifiers. It's still an armour save so anything that ignores armour would still get through but if they get an armour save then it can't be modified by AP or any other rules.
That is exactly how invul saves work.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/29 00:42:36
NinthMusketeer wrote: Yeah, high AP ignore invul is just MWs with pointless extra complexity. A simple rule of the MWs only being dealt to one model would be much easier for everyone involved.
Of course making it so damage boils over by default and is counterbalanced by attacks being inherently unable to deal damage greater than the target's wound characteristic would make a lot of things easier for everyone involved.
EviscerationPlague wrote: We don't need rules negating thr negation of Invul. We need no negation of Invul to begin with, or at least total negation.
All invul negation does is act as mortal wounds that don't spill over across units.
EDIT: And honestly Daemons have always had issues with things that ignored invuls. They never really felt like they were extra-dimensional since they follow the physical laws of the universe far too well.
Maybe just turn their invul into an armour save that ignores AP. Mortals would still skip through but "ignores invuls" wouldn't be a thing anymore.
Soooo.......some kind of save.....that is, uhhh.....invulnerable, to AP? That kinda thing?
No, think more like Nighthaunt from AoS who have an armour save that can't be increased or reduced by any modifiers. It's still an armour save so anything that ignores armour would still get through but if they get an armour save then it can't be modified by AP or any other rules.
That is exactly how invul saves work.
I understand that is how invuls save. This isn't my first edition of 40k. I'm speaking of them having a special rule that makes their armour save behave in the same manner while still being an armour save and not an invul save. It's much simpler to impliment than adding a fourth type of save to the game (counting armour, invul and FnP as kinds of saves).
You could have certain things like "Cannot be reduced below X regardless of save modifiers", but ultimately when something can have an Invul save and a regular save, what would be the point? It'd just be a redundant rule.
I don't think there's a problem with stratifying saves. When we did our own set of 40k rules we ended up with:
1. Armour saves (can be ignored via AP). 2. Invulnerable saves (cannot be ignored except by things that ignore invulnerables, which were rare, and Hammerhead Rail Guns were not one of them). 3. Ignore Injury saves (what we would call Feel No Pain). 4. Psychic Saves (only usable against actual psychic attacks/weapons, because it's possible you can be resistant to psychic powers but not have a force field). 5. Dodge Saves (cannot be ignored - basically there for the things that are so skilled/elite that they should be able to just get out of the way of incoming attacks, so that was basically Assassins, Harlis and Lictors in our rules, I believe - plus this could easily apply to thinks like "jink" saves, where some psychic blast attack that ignores invuls wouldn't suddenly ignore your ability to dodge out of the way).
Now with most psychic powers causing Mortal Wounds, the Psychic Save isn't especially necessary, as Feel No Pain takes care of that. That said, GW has included ignore MW saves that only work against psychic attacks, which is basically the same thing, even if it's not a codified rule and just another example of their grab-bag of bespoke nonsense.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/03/29 01:54:09
H.B.M.C. wrote: You could have certain things like "Cannot be reduced below X regardless of save modifiers", but ultimately when something can have an Invul save and a regular save, what would be the point? It'd just be a redundant rule.
It'd get around "ignores invul" without requiring another save mechanic being added to the game.
Yeah but what you're describing is a weapon-based rule, not a save-based rule. You'd have to have a weapon that has "Reduces Invuls by X".
This is why they just should've had USRs from the beginning. Allows you to make tons of scaling (X) rules that avoid the need to reinvent the wheel every time you do something.
Superlative Penetration (X) - A weapon with this special quality reduces Invulnerable saves by the amount listed in place of the 'X'.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Yeah but what you're describing is a weapon-based rule, not a save-based rule. You'd have to have a weapon that has "Reduces Invuls by X".
This is why they just should've had USRs from the beginning. Allows you to make tons of scaling (X) rules that avoid the need to reinvent the wheel every time you do something.
Superlative Penetration (X) - A weapon with this special quality reduces Invulnerable saves by the amount listed in place of the 'X'.
No, because I'm talking about getting around the problem that Daemons are often on the short end of where they can't take an invul save at all. It's a trick GW loves going back to edition after edition and often hurts Daemons the most. Switching them to an unmodifiable armour save would protect them from that gimmick.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Yeah but what you're describing is a weapon-based rule, not a save-based rule. You'd have to have a weapon that has "Reduces Invuls by X".
This is why they just should've had USRs from the beginning. Allows you to make tons of scaling (X) rules that avoid the need to reinvent the wheel every time you do something.
Superlative Penetration (X) - A weapon with this special quality reduces Invulnerable saves by the amount listed in place of the 'X'.
No, because I'm talking about getting around the problem that Daemons are often on the short end of where they can't take an invul save at all. It's a trick GW loves going back to edition after edition and often hurts Daemons the most. Switching them to an unmodifiable armour save would protect them from that gimmick.
Outside of Mortal Wounds, what actually ignores Invulnerable saves?
It's really not much-look, Daemons have issues. But Invulns being ignored isn't common enough to matter against the real problems.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
H.B.M.C. wrote: Yeah but what you're describing is a weapon-based rule, not a save-based rule. You'd have to have a weapon that has "Reduces Invuls by X".
This is why they just should've had USRs from the beginning. Allows you to make tons of scaling (X) rules that avoid the need to reinvent the wheel every time you do something.
Superlative Penetration (X) - A weapon with this special quality reduces Invulnerable saves by the amount listed in place of the 'X'.
No, because I'm talking about getting around the problem that Daemons are often on the short end of where they can't take an invul save at all. It's a trick GW loves going back to edition after edition and often hurts Daemons the most. Switching them to an unmodifiable armour save would protect them from that gimmick.
Outside of Mortal Wounds, what actually ignores Invulnerable saves?
It's really not much-look, Daemons have issues. But Invulns being ignored isn't common enough to matter against the real problems.
GW has started tapping that mechanic again with the railgun, and now that the cat is out of the bag it's clear they're going to go back to it in the future much like how they've sprinkled it about in the past.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Yeah but what you're describing is a weapon-based rule, not a save-based rule. You'd have to have a weapon that has "Reduces Invuls by X".
This is why they just should've had USRs from the beginning. Allows you to make tons of scaling (X) rules that avoid the need to reinvent the wheel every time you do something.
Superlative Penetration (X) - A weapon with this special quality reduces Invulnerable saves by the amount listed in place of the 'X'.
No, because I'm talking about getting around the problem that Daemons are often on the short end of where they can't take an invul save at all. It's a trick GW loves going back to edition after edition and often hurts Daemons the most. Switching them to an unmodifiable armour save would protect them from that gimmick.
Outside of Mortal Wounds, what actually ignores Invulnerable saves?
It's really not much-look, Daemons have issues. But Invulns being ignored isn't common enough to matter against the real problems.
GW has started tapping that mechanic again with the railgun, and now that the cat is out of the bag it's clear they're going to go back to it in the future much like how they've sprinkled it about in the past.
This is the issue yeah, is that things like this will ramp up. Let's take for example the 'ability to turn off auras' as an example.
There's such an ability in the Sisters of Battle codex, one of the earlier 9th ed codexes in the grand scheme of things.
You could give your characters a "Blessing of the Faithful" that cost extra points. One of those blessings, "Divine Deliverance" cost 15 points and reads as such:
'At the start of your opponent's Command phase, select one enemy unit within 6" of this model and select one Aura ability that unit has. Roll 3d6: if the result is equal to or greater than that enemy unit's Leadership characteristic, then until the start of your opponent's next Command phase, that enemy unit loses that Aura ability.'
Not game-breaking. Your character has to be 6" away from the enemy, you've got to pass a roll, and you've gotta choose (and pay for) that ability over other things in your codex. Sisters of Battle characters are also not known for being super tanky, and if your opponent knows you have something like this, there are many ways they can play around it.
Now, there's an entire Harlequin subfaction that just turns off re-rolls against some of their units. Let's be frank, most auras are just that: re-rolls to hit.
That same arms race has applied to many different abilities, from toughness of units to strength of their guns to AP and then to the damage of their weapons, and now we're seeing even more things... There have been instances where the creep gets way out of hand (remember 8th edition Salamanders and the 40+ mortal wounds their flamers could pump out? that was the beginning of limiting how many mortal wounds something could do, and now it's a normal rule) and then it gets tamped back down rather dramatically, but then another game rule rears its ugly head. It's due to some of this that we no longer have ways to take multiple Hive Tyrants, Tau Commanders, Space Marine Captains, and that things across the board are limited to the Rule of 3, because of how ridiculous some rules and units are over others.
JNAProductions wrote: They're either Characters (and so benefit from LoS), not Characters but have a rule that lets them use LoS or otherwise stay safe, or they're just dead.
Given GW's track record with CSM, I'm guessing option 1 or 3.
I'd wager 3 tbh, I'd hope they're cheap enough to not really matter though. Does make you wonder if they can use rhinos however.
Doubtful. Death Guard Rhinos can only carry BUBONIC ASTARTES units and Thousand Sons Rhinos can only carry ARCANA ASTARTES units, which are both all Marines. Apparently the mortals are expected to walk.
With cultists, renegade guard (maybe) and mutants ontop of a cultist HQ, it'll be really hard to justify treating all those units like they do in the other books though.
Edit: unless we get chimera thrown in.
Since when has gw ever tried to justify whatever ridiculous that they decide to saddle CSM with?
I dunno, I imagine they want to sell their new units but if they're stuck as 1 per heretic astartes and get no support in any manner then they'll beat doa and they won't want half the new kits to be dead weight.
Yes, they'll want to sell the new kits, but how many times have they put out a shiny new kit and then end up giving it lackluster rules? New models doesn't equal good rules, you know that just as well as I do. CSM Cultists will have the same restriction as Death Guard and Thousand Sons Cultists. It's a pattern.
Oh I know, but given we're about to have 4 "cultist" units in theory, that's not really going to work or make sense in the context of the army. They need to handle them differently then roll the same out to DG/Tsons maybe next time round.
Could be kroot style. For every marine unit 1 of each cultist units.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Yeah but what you're describing is a weapon-based rule, not a save-based rule. You'd have to have a weapon that has "Reduces Invuls by X".
This is why they just should've had USRs from the beginning. Allows you to make tons of scaling (X) rules that avoid the need to reinvent the wheel every time you do something.
Superlative Penetration (X) - A weapon with this special quality reduces Invulnerable saves by the amount listed in place of the 'X'.
No, because I'm talking about getting around the problem that Daemons are often on the short end of where they can't take an invul save at all. It's a trick GW loves going back to edition after edition and often hurts Daemons the most. Switching them to an unmodifiable armour save would protect them from that gimmick.
Outside of Mortal Wounds, what actually ignores Invulnerable saves?
It's really not much-look, Daemons have issues. But Invulns being ignored isn't common enough to matter against the real problems.
GW has started tapping that mechanic again with the railgun, and now that the cat is out of the bag it's clear they're going to go back to it in the future much like how they've sprinkled it about in the past.
There's three source of invuln ignoring damage in the Eldar book alone.
that they decide to saddle 
