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Eldarain wrote: Ah yes. Chaos. The faction known for rigid equipment doctrine. Don't let the Aspiring Champion see that non standard issue gear.
How have they strayed so far?
Started a long time ago, when people started insisting Chaos Marines ought to fought in those super-unfluffy uniform Legions or mono-God armies in a weird freakish Heresy-enactment, instead of mixing it together under the strongest Warlord/Daemon Prince in a riot of colours, warbands and allegiences as thematic counter-point to the mono-colour/uniform loyalist Marines as Chaos was originally intended to be played.
drbored wrote: The thing is, even if they're limiting you to the box, the rules should still allow you to take 2 heavy weapons or 2 special weapons in 10, since you can have a missile launcher and heavy bolter, or plasma gun and melta gun, or plasma gun and missile launcher. Options are there.
It will be interesting to see what they do. Hopefully it won't be a Plague Marine level of silliness. Just using the old assembly instructions (not including the new Legionary sprue from Kill Team) it would be something like:
If the unit has less then 10 models, 1 model may be armed with a Meltagun, Missile Launcher, Heavy Bolter, Plasma Gun, or Flamer
If the unit has 10 models then 1 Legionnaire may be replace their Boltgun with a Meltagun or a Missile Launcher, another Legionnaire can replace their Boltgun with a Heavy Bolter of Plasma Gun, and another Legionnaire can replace their Boltgun with a Flamer.
Up 5 Legionaries can replace their Boltgun with an Astartes Chainsword
And to think this doesn't deal with the two Legionaire Champion models in the box or all the Kill Team sprue fun! I think they might be better off adhering to the Codex Astartes.
Yep... I guess we'll see. I'm hoping it's not nearly this bad.
And here's the thing, Chapterhouse is long done. As much as I pu-pu 3d printing, that's the way that people are going to be getting their extra bits, either by printing the pieces themselves, or ordering from the other services out there that will take those things and print them for you. There's nothing stopping people from doing that, so there's no sense in GW pointing to Chapterhouse as the reason that they make their kits this way.
There are a couple of overlapping things that contribute to this:
A. The designers design the miniatures. For the most part, and according to people in the industry I've talked to, the designers are given quite a bit of freedom to make all sorts of different things. Those things are then spliced apart and put onto sprues, with various sacrifices made to make sure that certain kits can fit onto X or Y number of sprues. They've crammed TONS more bits on modern sprues than past ones, just do a google search on some of the older kits and you'll see the difference.
B. The rules writers get the kits that the designers make and create rules that match the miniatures. In the case of brand new things, they've got a lot more wiggle room into what to give those things, like the Venomcrawler. They work with the lore team to put stuff together, like giving the Venomcrawler a bonus for psychic tests done by nearby casters because lore reasons. There's not a lot of physical reason that a Venomcrawler should make psykers better, but hey, there it is, because lore. For classic units, there is an expectation that those units will retain a semblance of their battlefield role from one edition to the next.
C. The higher ups, marketing teams and such, determine how best to market this product and ruleset. They come up with guidelines and rules, and the latest guideline that they've been pushing is that players should have rules that match the models that come in the box set. No matter how limited that box set might be, it's better for new players to be able to build, without much confusion, exactly what's in the box. If they did this to dissuade bits sellers, that's debunked by the new horus heresy special weapons kits. If they did this to dissuade 3rd party bits designers, that ship has sailed, due to all the companies that have popped up selling conversion bits and even whole models. This is all about their guideline to ease new players into the hobby.
Now, like all things GW does, they remain inconsistent with even this, because the mess of weapons that you give to things like Blightlord Terminators and Plague Marines make it difficult to determine any sort of ideal load-out for a new player. It would have been MUCH better to give something like Plague Marines only one or two ranged weapons to pick from, one or two melee weapons for the champion, and otherwise keep everything else bolters and plague knives. But, the designers made a bunch of extra weapons, the rules writers made the rules for all those weapons, and then the marketing team said 'we gotta limit this to our new guidelines' and boom, you have the latest plague marine datasheet.
Here's the thing that bugs me: I can't think of another faction that struggles with this as much as Chaos. Sisters of Battle, even having their updates 20 years apart, only lost a Canoness with jump pack, really. They MADE A KIT WITH 4 OF EVERY SPECIAL WEAPON for the Sisters of Battle, AS WELL AS all the combi-weapon options and tons of melee options for the superior. Genestealer Cult had the mess of weapons that Abominants and the Atalan Jackals simply flattened into fewer profiles, but otherwise weren't punished for taking x or y. Other factions are simply not designed like Chaos Marines are - they have units that all have 1 weapon loadout and either no options or very few options.
Between 5th and 7th, I honestly don't think GW knew what to do with Chaos Marines, hence putting out the mix of dinobots and a collection of other models that then got out-scaled by 8th edition's scale shift. Chosen and Cultists were in one box set that stretched 2 editions and never got a full release until now, 2 more editions later. I do believe that GW FINALLY have an idea of what they want to do with the faction, but it's going to be a painful decade of gaining and losing options as they force Chaos Marines to fit whatever new design space they want for the faction.
There will be retcons, redesigns, rules shifts, and much more we'll have to work through.
The forthcoming CSM Kill Team is the closest I’ve seen GW get Chaos “right” in a long old time. Now for clarity that is of course “right” purely within my own preferences.
Whilst a squad, they’re also personalities unto themselves. Each member exploring or starting to explore a given Passion/Obsession. They’re Reavers with eclectic equipment loadouts, as befits Chaos in my mind’s eye.
They’re a collection of individuals banded together for at least temporary mutual benefit. Functionally immortal warriors with nothing holding them back except their own abilities. Champions of their own lives enjoying freedom relative to that not enjoyed by Loyalists or indeed the majority of The Imperium.
They look an absolute riot. They’re not particularly uniform, and I’m absolutely, 100% here for it.
Add to them the forthcoming mutants and possessed? It might just be time for me to think about treading the Eight Fold Path once more.
If I do, I reckon I might go for a proper mishmash of units. Go for a visual riot on the board. Of course whilst not fussed for “optimal performance” I still need to hope none of the visually appealing units are bobbins on the board, because I’d at least like a shot at winning games.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Eldarain wrote: Ah yes. Chaos. The faction known for rigid equipment doctrine. Don't let the Aspiring Champion see that non standard issue gear.
How have they strayed so far?
Started a long time ago, when people started insisting Chaos Marines ought to fought in those super-unfluffy uniform Legions or mono-God armies in a weird freakish Heresy-enactment, instead of mixing it together under the strongest Warlord/Daemon Prince in a riot of colours, warbands and allegiences as thematic counter-point to the mono-colour/uniform loyalist Marines as Chaos was originally intended to be played.
'Super-unfluffy'
This has been something in the lore since 2nd edition. The 3.5 ed codex had full rules for legions. The game has also now reestablished the legions as key forces and has been doing this since the end of 7th.
I think the 4th ed codex mentions warbands of random units led by the strongest Warlord once or twice in its showcase section.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/05/19 08:14:32
The biggest indicator someone is a loser is them complaining about 3d printers or piracy.
The first edition legion armies were all “mono-god” single legion unfiied armies that had very similar laid outs to normal marines. It wasn’t the only way to field chaos armies but the lists in realms of chaos: slaves to darkness were very similar to standard marine lists. It’s not new.
Andykp wrote: The first edition legion armies were all “mono-god” single legion unfiied armies that had very similar laid outs to normal marines. It wasn’t the only way to field chaos armies but the lists in realms of chaos: slaves to darkness were very similar to standard marine lists. It’s not new.
It's not new at all but a strong tendency in the 40k community is to have this incredibly specific idea of the right way an army should be organised or how the lore actually is. People are free to have this as an opinion - and many people can back their opinions up quite well (the good Mr Gad, for example), but plenty of other people assert the true concept of how the armies should work while also claiming any other viewpoint is simply wrong and anti-ethical to the lore - when the lore says the exact opposite of what they claim.
The biggest indicator someone is a loser is them complaining about 3d printers or piracy.
Eldarain wrote: Ah yes. Chaos. The faction known for rigid equipment doctrine. Don't let the Aspiring Champion see that non standard issue gear.
How have they strayed so far?
Started a long time ago, when people started insisting Chaos Marines ought to fought in those super-unfluffy uniform Legions or mono-God armies in a weird freakish Heresy-enactment, instead of mixing it together under the strongest Warlord/Daemon Prince in a riot of colours, warbands and allegiences as thematic counter-point to the mono-colour/uniform loyalist Marines as Chaos was originally intended to be played.
Chaos guys are pretty disagreeable people by default. So putting multiple culturally different units in an army would be a recipe for disaster. I also remember the demonic animosity rules which were fine to represent this. Those animosity rules would be good to extend to mortal units as well.
What's this nonsense about the "correct" way to run chaos marines? Want to do the extreme darwinism 'only the strongest can lead' band of individuals? Go for it. Want to do a bunch of grunts holding rigidly to the old legion command structure because its the only anchor they have left in their fractured world and even more fractured mind? Also fine.
Garrac wrote: So, it looks like, according to B&Ch, Huron's mini has disappeared from the WHW expo...
Spoiler:
Not saying I don't think Huron is coming, but the photo doesn't mean much. The old Possessed are there and they're confirmed to be getting a new release
Garrac wrote: So, it looks like, according to B&Ch, Huron's mini has disappeared from the WHW expo...
Spoiler:
Not saying I don't think Huron is coming, but the photo doesn't mean much. The old Possessed are there and they're confirmed to be getting a new release
Well you can't buy huron any more so that could be why, but to me, the fact corsairs are represented as a legion in the new codex, not generic renegades, says they have something for them they want to sell and it won't be a 4th ed oop finecast model.
Then ofc he just got a novel near the codex drop.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/19 11:38:25
Fergie0044 wrote: What's this nonsense about the "correct" way to run chaos marines? Want to do the extreme darwinism 'only the strongest can lead' band of individuals? Go for it. Want to do a bunch of grunts holding rigidly to the old legion command structure because its the only anchor they have left in their fractured world and even more fractured mind? Also fine.
It's how I'm building my Night Lords (red hands supporting Curze) for HH and will be carrying them over to 40k the same way, so a failing legion structure even as they surround themselves with their more twisted brethren and mortal slaves fits my view of my army at least.
Clearly not long enough, as playing as Legions has been a thing since Rogue Trader.
Yeah there's literally army lists for the specific, uniformed legions in Slaves to Darkness.
I've noticed in the aftermath of the 4th ed CSM codex this weird niche of frankly delusional people emerged who began claiming that Legions didn't make sense, weren't true to the Chaos Space Marine tradition, and that really the bulk of CSM stuff should focus on ... random renegades?
The biggest indicator someone is a loser is them complaining about 3d printers or piracy.
Clearly not long enough, as playing as Legions has been a thing since Rogue Trader.
Yeah there's literally army lists for the specific, uniformed legions in Slaves to Darkness.
I've noticed in the aftermath of the 4th ed CSM codex this weird niche of frankly delusional people emerged who began claiming that Legions didn't make sense, weren't true to the Chaos Space Marine tradition, and that really the bulk of CSM stuff should focus on ... random renegades?
Both are correct? There will numerically be more renegades than original legionnaires by most accounts, hence the want to represent both to some degree. Even the legion fluff states that they reform from a gathering of numerous warbands, which likely will all have different schemes/gear etc. Likewise some renegade chapters maintain full chapter identity and fight more like a uniform body than some legion forces.
The key word for chaos marines is chaos. They can be what ever you want, diehard adherents to the legion tradition, fine, crazy bunch of warlords and their followers, fine. There is definitely no right way!
Andykp wrote: The key word for chaos marines is chaos. They can be what ever you want, diehard adherents to the legion tradition, fine, crazy bunch of warlords and their followers, fine. There is definitely no right way!
Clearly not long enough, as playing as Legions has been a thing since Rogue Trader.
Yeah there's literally army lists for the specific, uniformed legions in Slaves to Darkness.
I've noticed in the aftermath of the 4th ed CSM codex this weird niche of frankly delusional people emerged who began claiming that Legions didn't make sense, weren't true to the Chaos Space Marine tradition, and that really the bulk of CSM stuff should focus on ... random renegades?
Both are correct? There will numerically be more renegades than original legionnaires by most accounts, hence the want to represent both to some degree. Even the legion fluff states that they reform from a gathering of numerous warbands, which likely will all have different schemes/gear etc. Likewise some renegade chapters maintain full chapter identity and fight more like a uniform body than some legion forces.
I don't think it's wrong to say renegades are the bulk of new CSMs but it's more the position taken by people that coherent legion fighting forces don't exist. Except in the cases of like, the World Eaters and Emperors Children (this is slowly being revised in the case of the EC lore as well btw, at least in the novels), the Legions remained fairly coherent.
Both exist and should be represented (I don't really mind standard CSMs being called 'legionnaires' because that feels like a pretty simple espirit de corps thing - plus plenty of renegade Space Marines like to emulate the legions of old - just ask Huron).
The biggest indicator someone is a loser is them complaining about 3d printers or piracy.
Clearly not long enough, as playing as Legions has been a thing since Rogue Trader.
Yeah there's literally army lists for the specific, uniformed legions in Slaves to Darkness.
I've noticed in the aftermath of the 4th ed CSM codex this weird niche of frankly delusional people emerged who began claiming that Legions didn't make sense, weren't true to the Chaos Space Marine tradition, and that really the bulk of CSM stuff should focus on ... random renegades?
Both are correct? There will numerically be more renegades than original legionnaires by most accounts, hence the want to represent both to some degree. Even the legion fluff states that they reform from a gathering of numerous warbands, which likely will all have different schemes/gear etc. Likewise some renegade chapters maintain full chapter identity and fight more like a uniform body than some legion forces.
You're quite right, but I think that Blood Reaper and other posters are reacting to this post from up thread:
Sunny Side Up wrote:
Eldarain wrote: Ah yes. Chaos. The faction known for rigid equipment doctrine. Don't let the Aspiring Champion see that non standard issue gear.
How have they strayed so far?
Started a long time ago, when people started insisting Chaos Marines ought to fought in those super-unfluffy uniform Legions or mono-God armies in a weird freakish Heresy-enactment, instead of mixing it together under the strongest Warlord/Daemon Prince in a riot of colours, warbands and allegiences as thematic counter-point to the mono-colour/uniform loyalist Marines as Chaos was originally intended to be played.
Which flat states that warbands based on the old Legions are "super-unfluffy", and that only those that have an extremely eclectic mix of units from different Legions/Renegades are "fluffy". This is a typical depiction of CSM favored by many who don't play CSM, and is usually used to justify the various other arguments that they favor, such as that CSM, whether former Legionaries or Renegades, are also: poorly organized, equipped, supplied, disciples, etc, etc. In short: worse than loyalists.
Clearly not long enough, as playing as Legions has been a thing since Rogue Trader.
Yeah there's literally army lists for the specific, uniformed legions in Slaves to Darkness.
I've noticed in the aftermath of the 4th ed CSM codex this weird niche of frankly delusional people emerged who began claiming that Legions didn't make sense, weren't true to the Chaos Space Marine tradition, and that really the bulk of CSM stuff should focus on ... random renegades?
Both are correct? There will numerically be more renegades than original legionnaires by most accounts, hence the want to represent both to some degree. Even the legion fluff states that they reform from a gathering of numerous warbands, which likely will all have different schemes/gear etc. Likewise some renegade chapters maintain full chapter identity and fight more like a uniform body than some legion forces.
You're quite right, but I think that Blood Reaper and other posters are reacting to this post from up thread:
Sunny Side Up wrote:
Eldarain wrote: Ah yes. Chaos. The faction known for rigid equipment doctrine. Don't let the Aspiring Champion see that non standard issue gear.
How have they strayed so far?
Started a long time ago, when people started insisting Chaos Marines ought to fought in those super-unfluffy uniform Legions or mono-God armies in a weird freakish Heresy-enactment, instead of mixing it together under the strongest Warlord/Daemon Prince in a riot of colours, warbands and allegiences as thematic counter-point to the mono-colour/uniform loyalist Marines as Chaos was originally intended to be played.
Which flat states that warbands based on the old Legions are "super-unfluffy", and that only those that have an extremely eclectic mix of units from different Legions/Renegades are "fluffy". This is a typical depiction of CSM favored by many who don't play CSM, and is usually used to justify the various other arguments that they favor, such as that CSM, whether former Legionaries or Renegades, are also: poorly organized, equipped, supplied, disciples, etc, etc. In short: worse than loyalists.
I took it as partially satirical/sarcastic ranting tbh, maybe I was off tone via the medium of text.
I get the whole none uniformal colour thing, the legions weren't in uniformal colours during the heresy, some companies had more embellishments than others, but the splinter warbands probably struck out to be more independent in appearance.
Point stands I guess that there isn't a right or wrong, all interpretations are correct, the only fault is insisting one is more right than the other.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/19 16:38:45
Agreed, trying to say that Chaos warbands have to fit x or y mold is the first mistake.
The true fault lies with GW not understanding what that means and shoehorning us all into a hodgepodge of rules that don't let many fans play any of those interpretations.
Andykp wrote: The key word for chaos marines is chaos. They can be what ever you want, diehard adherents to the legion tradition, fine, crazy bunch of warlords and their followers, fine. There is definitely no right way!
That's the spirit!
One idea I have always liked is that time being meaningless in the warp, the siege of terra could have just happened to some chaos guys. Would like to see an army based on that idea done well.
drbored wrote: Agreed, trying to say that Chaos warbands have to fit x or y mold is the first mistake.
The true fault lies with GW not understanding what that means and shoehorning us all into a hodgepodge of rules that don't let many fans play any of those interpretations.
Which in a way the God awful 6th edition codex gave a lot of freedom in that regard. While rumors have SOME element of that (Cult units can get taken still, though they get worse for reasons), I'd prefer just keeping Renegades separate.
Come to think of it, consolidating the various types of power weapon into one profile (among the few rumors I really like about this codex) is a great way to let squads be chaotic without hampering gameplay. Each member can have their own preferred method of beating things up in melee but it all 'averages out' to a single profile in abstract so that IRL games can be streamlined.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Come to think of it, consolidating the various types of power weapon into one profile (among the few rumors I really like about this codex) is a great way to let squads be chaotic without hampering gameplay. Each member can have their own preferred method of beating things up in melee but it all 'averages out' to a single profile in abstract so that IRL games can be streamlined.
I could not agree more. I actually really like the idea of the "accursed weapons" or whatever they are called. It is great for modeling because now I can equip whatever weapon I like i.e. whip, knife, spear, halberd, ax, demonic hand etc. etc., and it all has the same profile, so no having to explain to my opponent what each one does. And everyone always took whatever weapon was best at the time anyway (all axes or swords etc) so it is not like having squads with mixed weapons was super popular. And also attacking with mixed weapons was always a pain because you almost always had to roll them all seperate. The new rule lets me build a squad exactly how I want it to look and they all have the same rules (which is also a good stat line).
No them getting rid of the ranged options is the one that stings, especially in light of GW actually selling bits to upgrade units for HH, yet they can't do that for 40k? L
Dudeface wrote: I took it as partially satirical/sarcastic ranting tbh, maybe I was off tone via the medium of text.
Given the source, trust me, it was't.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Come to think of it, consolidating the various types of power weapon into one profile (among the few rumors I really like about this codex) is a great way to let squads be chaotic without hampering gameplay. Each member can have their own preferred method of beating things up in melee but it all 'averages out' to a single profile in abstract so that IRL games can be streamlined.
Personally, as a Chaos player who has done nothing but see his army slowly eroded since 2007, I'd rather not lose more of my options, especially when we know it derives from GW fumbling to find a solution* to squad options without giving us another Plague Marine-esque labyrinth of nonsense.
*A solution to a 'problem' that is only a problem because they made it a problem.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/05/19 22:50:13
Dudeface wrote: I took it as partially satirical/sarcastic ranting tbh, maybe I was off tone via the medium of text.
Given the source, trust me, it was't.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Come to think of it, consolidating the various types of power weapon into one profile (among the few rumors I really like about this codex) is a great way to let squads be chaotic without hampering gameplay. Each member can have their own preferred method of beating things up in melee but it all 'averages out' to a single profile in abstract so that IRL games can be streamlined.
Personally, as a Chaos player who has done nothing but see his army slowly eroded since 2007, I'd rather not lose more of my options, especially when we know it derives from GW fumbling to find a solution* to squad options without giving us another Plague Marine-esque labyrinth of nonsense.
*A solution to a 'problem' that is only a problem because they made it a problem.
That also depends on how important you think the difference between a Power Axe vs Sword vs Maul vs Lance is. I'm content with just two profiles to encompass that and then bespoke in more niche situations.
Dudeface wrote: I took it as partially satirical/sarcastic ranting tbh, maybe I was off tone via the medium of text.
Given the source, trust me, it was't.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Come to think of it, consolidating the various types of power weapon into one profile (among the few rumors I really like about this codex) is a great way to let squads be chaotic without hampering gameplay. Each member can have their own preferred method of beating things up in melee but it all 'averages out' to a single profile in abstract so that IRL games can be streamlined.
Personally, as a Chaos player who has done nothing but see his army slowly eroded since 2007, I'd rather not lose more of my options, especially when we know it derives from GW fumbling to find a solution* to squad options without giving us another Plague Marine-esque labyrinth of nonsense.
*A solution to a 'problem' that is only a problem because they made it a problem.
That gets into the nuance of which options are being lost. If consolidating power weapons back together is a loss, then by extension it was a gain that happened during the time period you mention. If it was not a significant gain, then it is also not a significant loss. If it was a significant gain, that undermines the core point made here (IMO it is the former). In my eyes the power weapon differentiation simply amounted to extra hoops of optimization needed to maintain functionality the models already had previously by picking whichever option is favored in the given edition. Perhaps more importantly all existing models and builds with them remain viable. The Plague Marine equivalent would be merging all of the disparate melee weapons into one 'accursed plague weapons' profile then letting players mix & match whichever ones they like the look of (leaving the bespoke weapon stats for Kill Team where such is appropriate) and I think we can all agree such would be an improvement.
That is a very different story to something like removing jump packs as an option for chaos lords or adding additional restrictions on how many of each weapon a squad can have.
Dudeface wrote: I took it as partially satirical/sarcastic ranting tbh, maybe I was off tone via the medium of text.
Given the source, trust me, it was't.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Come to think of it, consolidating the various types of power weapon into one profile (among the few rumors I really like about this codex) is a great way to let squads be chaotic without hampering gameplay. Each member can have their own preferred method of beating things up in melee but it all 'averages out' to a single profile in abstract so that IRL games can be streamlined.
Personally, as a Chaos player who has done nothing but see his army slowly eroded since 2007, I'd rather not lose more of my options, especially when we know it derives from GW fumbling to find a solution* to squad options without giving us another Plague Marine-esque labyrinth of nonsense.
*A solution to a 'problem' that is only a problem because they made it a problem.
That gets into the nuance of which options are being lost. If consolidating power weapons back together is a loss, then by extension it was a gain that happened during the time period you mention. If it was not a significant gain, then it is also not a significant loss. If it was a significant gain, that undermines the core point made here (IMO it is the former). In my eyes the power weapon differentiation simply amounted to extra hoops of optimization needed to maintain functionality the models already had previously by picking whichever option is favored in the given edition. Perhaps more importantly all existing models and builds with them remain viable. The Plague Marine equivalent would be merging all of the disparate melee weapons into one 'accursed plague weapons' profile then letting players mix & match whichever ones they like the look of (leaving the bespoke weapon stats for Kill Team where such is appropriate) and I think we can all agree such would be an improvement.
That is a very different story to something like removing jump packs as an option for chaos lords or adding additional restrictions on how many of each weapon a squad can have.
If the rumors are correct we are losing...
Freedom to equip Terminators with any combination of weapons.
Freedom to equip Chosen with any combination of weapons.
Jump packs for Chaos Lords and Sorcerers.
Lightning Claws for Aspiring Champions of many kinds.
Mutilators.
The ability to take up to 20 Chaos Marines in a unit.
And potentially the ability to take 2 special weapons or 2 heavy weapons in a Chaos Marine squad.
Possessed are changing dramatically, so hard to say that's a loss or gain.
We are gaining cultists, cultist HQ, accursed cultists, and traitor guard, as well as finally getting models for Chosen which haven't had models outside of the Dark Vengeance box.
It's a very mixed bag. The factors above could force many long-time players to dramatically change up their list, with a slew of their collection now invalidated or relatively useless. That's a bad feel if you spent hundreds of dollars on those models and don't even have a new kit to replace some of the options that have been lost (like getting a new Chaos Lord that actually has weapon options).
