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 ClockworkZion wrote:
Or maybe I'm wrong and the issue is they're still trying to decide what to do with CSM right now and the issue is we don't have anyone to really champion the faction in the 40k studio.

If true this would therefore beg the question: Why are they releasing (let alone writing) Codices for armies that they haven't figured out?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Or maybe I'm wrong and the issue is they're still trying to decide what to do with CSM right now and the issue is we don't have anyone to really champion the faction in the 40k studio.

If true this would therefore beg the question: Why are they releasing (let alone writing) Codices for armies that they haven't figured out?

Money.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Or maybe I'm wrong and the issue is they're still trying to decide what to do with CSM right now and the issue is we don't have anyone to really champion the faction in the 40k studio.

If true this would therefore beg the question: Why are they releasing (let alone writing) Codices for armies that they haven't figured out?

Its GW what do you expect

 JNAProductions wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Or maybe I'm wrong and the issue is they're still trying to decide what to do with CSM right now and the issue is we don't have anyone to really champion the faction in the 40k studio.

If true this would therefore beg the question: Why are they releasing (let alone writing) Codices for armies that they haven't figured out?

Money.

I mean, we have people in this very forum saying we should be paying for these codices.

Doesn't look like rules that should be paid for to me.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Or maybe I'm wrong and the issue is they're still trying to decide what to do with CSM right now and the issue is we don't have anyone to really champion the faction in the 40k studio.

If true this would therefore beg the question: Why are they releasing (let alone writing) Codices for armies that they haven't figured out?

Money.

I mean, we have people in this very forum saying we should be paying for these codices.

Doesn't look like rules that should be paid for to me.

Yeah, GW strips out most of the fluff compared to previous editions and now they're adding idiotic "no model, no rules" changes on top of that and invalidating existing models? I might play CSM but I sure as hell won't be paying for this abomination of a codex.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Why was the warp bolter cut from the daemon prince?

Because it's not an actual part of the model and the model with the gun isn't out until later this year.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Or maybe I'm wrong and the issue is they're still trying to decide what to do with CSM right now and the issue is we don't have anyone to really champion the faction in the 40k studio.

If true this would therefore beg the question: Why are they releasing (let alone writing) Codices for armies that they haven't figured out?

Because they more than likely have a mandate to get every codex updated.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Sersi wrote:
Damnit. Only one Blastmaster per squad now. Why?

Because the (incompatible) upgrade packs only come with one each.

True but these are 6 weapons, so you need 2 for a full unit and thus it should be 2 Blastmasters. Same as with the PM weapon options.
If GW wants to stick to no model no rules they should at least be consistent.

The sad part right now is for me the terminator entry. I can only field 3 of my 10. Lets pray to the dark gods that we get a Legend entry soon to get those options back. PS: I do not play tournaments

Well; we waited, and we saw.


And who'd a' thunk it?!

The worst thing about the leaks is that the book seems like it is already written with an expiration date. It seems likely with the rumours we have that there will be another wave of models that will be reworked, also as already mentioned it seems like EC won’t stay for long. This is almost like that unnecessary 2.0 tome that than needed a ton of supplement books. Another predatory release. Why can chaos not just get a solid book to play for some time like orher factions do?

 ClockworkZion wrote:

I'm speaking from a pure basis of speculation, but it feels like CSM are in a bit of a limbo right now. It seems the push is to get the cult legions out of the book. I feel like this limbo is going to continue until EC are in their own book (likely in 10th if we're lucky) but hopefully that'll help give the CSM book a more concentrate design direction they can run with.

Or maybe I'm wrong and the issue is they're still trying to decide what to do with CSM right now and the issue is we don't have anyone to really champion the faction in the 40k studio.

Chaos Marines have been 'in limbo' for 2 years, when they said all space marines would be getting 2 wounds.

And even before then, when the scale change happened and not all models have been brought up to that new scale.

And even before then, when the dinobots came out but the 3rd edition upgrade sprue for vehicles hasn't changed.

I've been waiting for a long time for this Codex and... here's the bottom line: I've lost interest in playing the faction. These rules are trash. The Emperor's Children 'let's play a minigame' for maybe 1 or 2 additional attacks, the bupkis with accursed weapons, getting copy-paste doctrines, pretty much every infantry unit option being stripped of choices and limited... Oh, and by the way, take a look at the Legionaries and plasma pistols.

They can take a plasma pistol instead of a bolter.
But chainswords also replace the bolter.
So if you take a plasma pistols, you just have a plasma pistol and bolt pistol for each model, which you can't actual make out of the box as is. So, day 1 FAQ will be needed to fix that oversight.

Being limited to 1 of each weapon is annoying, and adding in the options for the legionaries is just... a mess of over-priced weirdness...

Some units have a plethora of melee weapons and things that their champs can take while others have had options stripped out for no apparent reason (raptor champ can't be bothered to take a lightning claw, despite there being tons in the box)

And on top of that, the range isn't even complete. 3rd edition vehicles and bikes. No multi-option Chaos lord. Terminator Lord and Terminator Sorcerer (shut up about it holding up, it's old) Huron Blackheart. Emperor's Children. We will continue to be in limbo until the rest of our options are brought out of 3rd and 4th edition.

If GW truly has nobody 'championing' Chaos (which is pretty obvious) I'd honestly rather they just squat the faction. Y'know, the faction that is born out of the 2nd edition of that huge new game they're pushing. The faction that's supposed to have the Imperium shaking in its boots. The faction with some of the most ruthless leaders and terrifying warbands the galaxy has ever seen. Yeah, just squat it if they're going to treat it this poorly.


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charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote:
The worst thing about the leaks is that the book seems like it is already written with an expiration date. It seems likely with the rumours we have that there will be another wave of models that will be reworked, also as already mentioned it seems like EC won’t stay for long. This is almost like that unnecessary 2.0 tome that than needed a ton of supplement books. Another predatory release. Why can chaos not just get a solid book to play for some time like orher factions do?

Frankly, this is my impression too.

There's Astra Militarum, World Eaters, Chaos Daemons, and Leagues of Votann to release between now and next summer when 10th is likely to drop. That's actually not a lot of 40k books across a whole year, but 1 is going to be a big update and 2 are brand new factions that'll get a ton of new things. That's where their attention is now, and Chaos Marines and Chaos Daemons are simply 'in the way' of them bringing in those new factions and keeping attention on Horus Heresy.

All we can do is pray that sometime around 11th or maybe 12th edition that Chaos Marines will be decently represented.

Also, watch the Traitor Guard be a separate file on Warcom you gotta print out, like the Novitiates for Sisters of Battle.

So , let me get this straight:

Book seemingly has expiration date soon TM.
Datasheets completely fethed.
Options for hq, now dark eldar level non existant.
Traitorguardsmen , where are thou?

Iow when are we holding gw to task ,because this isn't acceptable.

For my part , if that is the quality provided for a service costing me 55$ approx, only to be forced to buy another campaign book to get the new stuff like dp datasheet update and having invalidated half my army through outright moronical equipment restrictions and plaguemarineitis , well then i ain't buying and just not bothering with 40k anymore or hoisting a certain flag.

I've been waiting for a long time for this Codex and... here's the bottom line: I've lost interest in playing the faction. These rules are trash. The Emperor's Children 'let's play a minigame' for maybe 1 or 2 additional attacks, the bupkis with accursed weapons, getting copy-paste doctrines, pretty much every infantry unit option being stripped of choices and limited... Oh, and by the way, take a look at the Legionaries and plasma pistols

This puts it nicely, but i can't even be mad because i called that bs when we got to know about placeholder weapons ,sorry AccuRSEd WeaPoNS"

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Why was the warp bolter cut from the daemon prince?

Because it's not an actual part of the model and the model with the gun isn't out until later this year.

The curved-in portion of the left biomechanical arm I think is supposed to be the bolter, based on the design of the old metal model.

The comments about this codex being something of a placeholder might be true, and based on the rules leaks, it just looks like it's not something I'm interested in to buy. Honestly, while your hobby is your hobby, I would recommend to disgruntled CSM fans to not buy the codex and make it very clear to GW what you don't like about it (letters, emails, etc). Voting with your wallet plus being specific about your demands is a good way to bring about change. So far the stuff that I don't like and that others don't like are:

- Unnecessary removal of jump lord
- Gimping of daemon prince profile
- Removal of Cult Marines data sheets from codex, and the inability of them to take Legion traits
- Removal of Mutilators
- Tanks are still weak and not good at all
- Restrictive and convoluted weapons rules that absolutely wreck alot of peoples' assembled armies; accursed weapons are not in any way an acceptable replacement for the previous options. This is probably the biggest one. The new data sheets for units like Chosen, Legionnaires, and Terminators are insulting to the fan base.

I think I'll spend my money on buying more models, focusing on Death Guard and possibly World Eaters (I really hope that codex is good) in terms of play.

Dislike the new Chaos changes, but will spend on Death Guard instead

This is why you can't have nice things. This

Just for the glaring typos and errors (the aforementioned Plasma Pistols).

The best recourse other than not buying the codex would be to buy then return for a refund. This is better than not buying.

The product isn't fit for purpose.

If enough returns happen it really does feth GW.
The books are normally sealed so once opened have to be returned and destroyed. This is an on cost to GW.

As well, GW have a processing fee on the initial transaction and then the refund.

Seems like its a bit much? A faf? A ballache?

It wouldn't take many returns to be noticed. High hundreds for a niche book on day one release would be noticed by the bean counters.

Hundreds of faulty returns are an issue to GW. GW has to say to investors 'Hey we had multiple retuns on day one release' They then have to tell the investors why and the steps to remedy the issue.

Its a marketing nightmare for them.

 Mr. Burning wrote:
Just for the glaring typos and errors (the aforementioned Plasma Pistols).

The best recourse other than not buying the codex would be to buy then return for a refund. This is better than not buying.

The product isn't fit for purpose.

If enough returns happen it really does feth GW.
The books are normally sealed so once opened have to be returned and destroyed. This is an on cost to GW.

As well, GW have a processing fee on the initial transaction and then the refund.

Seems like its a bit much? A faf? A ballache?

It wouldn't take many returns to be noticed. High hundreds for a niche book on day one release would be noticed by the bean counters.

Hundreds of faulty returns are an issue to GW. GW has to say to investors 'Hey we had multiple retuns on day one release' They then have to tell the investors why and the steps to remedy the issue.

Its a marketing nightmare for them.

This is a really good idea, hadn't thought of it.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
feth those dataslates are a goddamn mess


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and of course Chosen can't have any Power Fists but the Champ in a regular squad can!

These "rules writers" are goddamn morons.

It's just painfully lazy, isn't it? They are SO WORRIED about someone using things outside the fething box that they shoehorn in ridiculous rules to make sure you have to stick to the sprue that they designed in the laziest way possible. The Terminator options are agony to read.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The Terminator entry makes me wince.

This is every bit as bad as we predicted...

It made me want to vomit. They managed to strip out the few remaining vestiges of customization from an army with the word CHAOS in it. Such a fething pile of gak.

From the leaked pages I've seen it doesn't appear that the Official Legion Traits include a third bonus for Chaos Doctrines. So, sadly no +2 hits on 6's to hit in melee for Emperor's Children.

 Sersi wrote:
From the leaked pages I've seen it doesn't appear that the Official Legion Traits include a third bonus for Chaos Doctrines. So, sadly no +2 hits on 6's to hit in melee for Emperor's Children.

Well, the superdoctrines for Marines are not included within their actual chapter traits and we also have no scans of the full pages of the Legion rules.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Or maybe I'm wrong and the issue is they're still trying to decide what to do with CSM right now and the issue is we don't have anyone to really champion the faction in the 40k studio.

If true this would therefore beg the question: Why are they releasing (let alone writing) Codices for armies that they haven't figured out?

Gotta maintain that trademark, I guess. Same reason there's always a new Optimus Prime and Megatron toy every year whether they need one or not.

I can't tell whether the book will be 'good' or not from what's shown but it sure feels like a total clusterfeth, I was super excited and they've managed to just pap all over that with the bizzaro rules writing and lack of direction.

I think placeholder is indeed the correct term. I imagine a lost & damned book might be on the way, I imagine the mutants are possibly dual system so thrown in as a "why not". I'd not be shocked if the Cultists were like tzaangors down the line with a sigmar sprue option.

Then chaos marines are just the great wtfever holding ground book.

Done whining, thank you for allowing me to add my salt.

Would you buy the V2.0 version of the codex in a few months if it allows you to add the Jump Pack Lord back in? Asking for a friend

 SicSemperTyrannis wrote:
Would you buy the V2.0 version of the codex in a few months if it allows you to add the Jump Pack Lord back in? Asking for a friend

No, AT this stage v2 would need to be in essence 3.5 level customizable, balanced and in essence may aswell be the second coming of christ level happenstance.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 SicSemperTyrannis wrote:
Would you buy the V2.0 version of the codex in a few months if it allows you to add the Jump Pack Lord back in? Asking for a friend

No, AT this stage v2 would need to be in essence 3.5 level customizable, balanced and in essence may aswell be the second coming of christ level happenstance.

I'd accept something that isn't less cohesive than 8.2 tbh, but they've dug a deep hole with this one for chaos fans, it'll take a small miracle to keep people happy.

I'm generally very positive towards releases and GW as a whole, but God knows what lead to this, they managed to please nobody rules wise it seems.

Dudeface wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 SicSemperTyrannis wrote:
Would you buy the V2.0 version of the codex in a few months if it allows you to add the Jump Pack Lord back in? Asking for a friend

No, AT this stage v2 would need to be in essence 3.5 level customizable, balanced and in essence may aswell be the second coming of christ level happenstance.

I'd accept something that isn't less cohesive than 7.2 tbh, but they've dug a deep hole with this one for chaos fans, it'll take a small miracle to keep people happy.

I'm generally very positive towards releases and GW as a whole, but God knows what lead to this, they managed to please nobody rules wise it seems.

The models are rarely the problem gw has , the new ones whilest i don't like the cultists, are good enough still.
However prices and especially the ruleset for the faction is not acceptable. And certainly not acceptable In a price relation to quality over here... 50chf for non checked restrictive unimaginative murder of trees printed in china ain't it chief,nope.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:

 Mr. Burning wrote:
Just for the glaring typos and errors (the aforementioned Plasma Pistols).

The best recourse other than not buying the codex would be to buy then return for a refund. This is better than not buying.

This is a really good idea, hadn't thought of it.

Unfortunately, it's highly unlikely to work, for two main reasons:

- No way would this end up going to investors. Maybe middle management somewhere would notice, but realistically this wouldn't even hit the Head Of level, let alone directors or investors. Maybe if the returns were in the thousands or even tens of thousands, but not for hundreds and certainly not for dozens.
- There's a good chance you wouldn't be able to return it, and even if you could it would likely only be for store credit (which probably shows up differently in the MI). Much as you might like to think the book's not fit for purpose, that's factually incorrect - you can use the book for its intended purpose I.e. building a Chaos Marine list in line with GW's designed rules. Also, with the app code in the back of the book, they may not accept it outside of shrink-wrap as you could easily have used it.

So while the idea is theoretically reasonable as a way of making a statement, it's not as practical or as effective as a standard boycott.

 Sersi wrote:
Noise Marines and Sonic Weapons are "GOOD" now; +1 damage within half range!

Blastmaster:

Single Freq 48" Heavy 3/S8/AP-3/Dam 3/Sonic Weapon [+1 dam within half range]
Varied Freq 36" Assault D6/S5/AP-2/Dam 1/Sonic Weapon [+1 dam within half range]

Sonic Blasters: 24" Assault 3/S4/AP-1/Dam 1/Sonic Weapon [+1 dam within half range]

Doom Siren: 12" Assault D6/S5/AP-3/Dam 1/auto hits/Sonic Weapon [+1 dam within half range]

They lost ignore cover, but it look like it was just baked into the weapons profile since the all went up -1 AP.
Noise marines did loose Music of the Apocalypse though.

Excrusciating Frequencies: [1CP]

Shooting Phase select an enemy unit, unmodofoed wound rolls of 6 cause a MW in addtion to any normal damage.
A unit cannot suffer more than 6 MW per phase as the result of this stratagem.
After make your attacks select on target unit that was hit with a sonic weapon this phase, .
Until your next turn that enemy unit cannot fire overwatch or set to defend.

Then explain this to me- If I just want Noise Marines with boltguns then a unit of them is 210 points. If I want a unit of Legionaires with bolt guns and the mark of Slaanesh then I pay 195 points. They have the exact same stats and rules. Why am I paying 15 points more for an elite unit over a Troop unit with identical everythings? If the sonic weapons make that much difference then they should just up the price of them. As far as I have seen there isn't a special strat or anything that applies only to Noise Marines. So what gives?

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

 Sersi wrote:
Noise Marines and Sonic Weapons are "GOOD" now; +1 damage within half range!

Blastmaster:

Single Freq 48" Heavy 3/S8/AP-3/Dam 3/Sonic Weapon [+1 dam within half range]
Varied Freq 36" Assault D6/S5/AP-2/Dam 1/Sonic Weapon [+1 dam within half range]

Sonic Blasters: 24" Assault 3/S4/AP-1/Dam 1/Sonic Weapon [+1 dam within half range]

Doom Siren: 12" Assault D6/S5/AP-3/Dam 1/auto hits/Sonic Weapon [+1 dam within half range]

They lost ignore cover, but it look like it was just baked into the weapons profile since the all went up -1 AP.
Noise marines did loose Music of the Apocalypse though.

Excrusciating Frequencies: [1CP]

Shooting Phase select an enemy unit, unmodofoed wound rolls of 6 cause a MW in addtion to any normal damage.
A unit cannot suffer more than 6 MW per phase as the result of this stratagem.
After make your attacks select on target unit that was hit with a sonic weapon this phase, .
Until your next turn that enemy unit cannot fire overwatch or set to defend.

Then explain this to me- If I just want Noise Marines with boltguns then a unit of them is 210 points. If I want a unit of Legionaires with bolt guns and the mark of Slaanesh then I pay 195 points. They have the exact same stats and rules. Why am I paying 15 points more for an elite unit over a Troop unit with identical everythings? If the sonic weapons make that much difference then they should just up the price of them. As far as I have seen there isn't a special strat or anything that applies only to Noise Marines. So what gives?

Tbh it's more amazing there's a boltgun option.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

Then explain this to me- If I just want Noise Marines with boltguns then a unit of them is 210 points. If I want a unit of Legionaires with bolt guns and the mark of Slaanesh then I pay 195 points. They have the exact same stats and rules. Why am I paying 15 points more for an elite unit over a Troop unit with identical everythings? If the sonic weapons make that much difference then they should just up the price of them. As far as I have seen there isn't a special strat or anything that applies only to Noise Marines. So what gives?

If it makes sense or it's easy, GW doesn't do it. This is the eternal rule.

Aelyn wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:

 Mr. Burning wrote:
Just for the glaring typos and errors (the aforementioned Plasma Pistols).

The best recourse other than not buying the codex would be to buy then return for a refund. This is better than not buying.

This is a really good idea, hadn't thought of it.

Unfortunately, it's highly unlikely to work, for two main reasons:

- No way would this end up going to investors. Maybe middle management somewhere would notice, but realistically this wouldn't even hit the Head Of level, let alone directors or investors. Maybe if the returns were in the thousands or even tens of thousands, but not for hundreds and certainly not for dozens.
- There's a good chance you wouldn't be able to return it, and even if you could it would likely only be for store credit (which probably shows up differently in the MI). Much as you might like to think the book's not fit for purpose, that's factually incorrect - you can use the book for its intended purpose I.e. building a Chaos Marine list in line with GW's designed rules. Also, with the app code in the back of the book, they may not accept it outside of shrink-wrap as you could easily have used it.

So while the idea is theoretically reasonable as a way of making a statement, it's not as practical or as effective as a standard boycott.

It would certainly be doable in the UK if you bought it online. You are legally guaranteed the right to return goods within 14 days of receiving them. That is, you have 14 days to notify the seller that you wish to return your order. You then have 14 days from that point to return the goods and the seller must then refund you within 14 days of them receiving the goods. This requires no reason for the return.

This Codex was written by seven men. Some had experience, others had determination.