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ClockworkZion wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Uhhh.....huh. An "interesting" "challenge". So, how about the "challenge" of getting it to work against a faction made up of L9 vehicles?

Honestly, I think that the second requirement of getting a squad below half strength will make the trait useful against high leadership infantry (though it will lead to slow-rolling sometimes, as you attempt to get the squad below the break point so that your remaining attacks can get the +1 to wound). But there is no recourse against high leadership vehicles. The obvious answer would be to make it take effect on a bracketed vehicle, as that almost always happens at 1/2 of the vehicle's total wounds. But they didn't do that. A Talent For Murder works on vehicles. This should too.

But, other than that, the Night Lords rules are fine. I just wish I could say the same about our units.

I think it'd be pretty rare to come up against a list that block you out like that.

On a separate note....spawn are friggin' awesome!

Knights? Hello? And any Astartes "Heavy" tanks are L9 (anything Land Raider size and up). Then there's Custodes vehicle heavy lists. And of course anything Ultramarines.

There's a reason that the HH writers made A Talent For Murder add +1 to Pen rolls as well as wound rolls. Gw seemed to be taking notes from those guys. But it was only Cliff Notes.

Problem is the HH rules rely on mechanics missing from 40k such as pinning, and bulky. Now bulky could be solved with a bespoke rule but clearly they wanted to streamline it for 9th over adding additional conditional modifiers.

No, they just changed the "conditional modifiers". Instead of requiring that the target unit be: pinned, outnumbered, or falling back they changed it to: Leadership of 5 or less or below half strength. No reason they couldn't throw "bracketed" in there for vehicles/MCs as well.

ClockworkZion wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
And I noticed people talking about Ld9 vehicles, but let's not ignore the Ld10 elephant in the room that is the entire Necron army. They are almost immune to the trait thanks to how hard they are to attrition and their base Ld10 across the army.

Fair point. Necrons will likely become the king for a bit, too.

Yeah that mass core is going to make them pretty strong.

Oh well, I didn't pick this Legion with expectations of steamrolling anyone.

So a question for the more knowlegable who might have spotted something I missed: can any characters take dual lighting claws in the book? Trying to figure out who can access the NL claws beyond the DP.

Terminator Lords. That appears to be it for characters. It can also be given to Aspiring Champions with Accursed Weapons as well. So, Terminator and Chosen Aspiring Champions.

As to your point about Necrons: as I said earlier, against factions like that we'll have to rely on the half strength condition. Throw some firepower into them to thin their numbers before charging them. If that isn't quite enough, slow roll your attacks until they drop below half strength and the trait kicks in.

Not to be rude but I feel like all this trips down memory lane to for rulesets of the past would be better in the 40k General forum instead of the news and rumors one.

As to your point about Necrons: as I said earlier, against factions like that we'll have to rely on the half strength condition. Throw some firepower into them to thin their numbers before charging them. If that isn't quite enough, slow roll your attacks until they drop below half strength and the trait kicks in.

Does a slow roll approach even work anymore?
9th always seems like a very 'kill as much as you can, as soon as you can' as long as you can still grab objectives.

Keeps down what the enemy can do to you. Waiting for the trait to trigger doesn't seem effective.

Voss wrote:

As to your point about Necrons: as I said earlier, against factions like that we'll have to rely on the half strength condition. Throw some firepower into them to thin their numbers before charging them. If that isn't quite enough, slow roll your attacks until they drop below half strength and the trait kicks in.

Does a slow roll approach even work anymore?
9th always seems like a very 'kill as much as you can, as soon as you can' as long as you can still grab objectives.

Keeps down what the enemy can do to you. Waiting for the trait to trigger doesn't seem effective.

It absolutely works, but there are conditions to be aware of that affect your decisions.

If the mission is Domination then it will be harder to stay cagey, but with Stranglehold gone there is less impetus to get out and trade to keep that rolling over. If you can pick up 8/12 on primary and have an angle to the alternate primary scoring then you can wait quite a while.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
And I noticed people talking about Ld9 vehicles, but let's not ignore the Ld10 elephant in the room that is the entire Necron army. They are almost immune to the trait thanks to how hard they are to attrition and their base Ld10 across the army.

To be fair, if there's one army terror tactics shouldn't work on it would be the soulless robots.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
And I noticed people talking about Ld9 vehicles, but let's not ignore the Ld10 elephant in the room that is the entire Necron army. They are almost immune to the trait thanks to how hard they are to attrition and their base Ld10 across the army.

To be fair, if there's one army terror tactics shouldn't work on it would be the soulless robots.

And its not like CSM didn't get a update that nullifies two necron sub faction abilities.

40k is like that. Feast or famine on your match ups.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
This looks promising, though the email is good as well:
https://wargamerdad.com/blog/chaos-space-marines-bring-back-the-jump-pack?fbclid=IwAR00X3uD_qAjwGnO5PUFgnnRxgfIwg0Iu_egYRGEQQeW8xUM89fPbACRqoQ

I can't get this to load at all.

Rogerio134134 wrote:
This thread is hilarious, what a bunch of cry babies.

And you'd be totally fine with one of your fav factions being gutted? Again?

I don't see how CSM are getting gutted, power-wise they look just fine at first glance and the book offers quite a few viable options to play that I'm looking forward to. The only thing I'm absolutely baffled by are some of the equipment options getting removed (no JP Lord/ Sorc, no LC on Raptor champs, no marks on Possessed etc.) but that doesn't mean the faction a whole is gutted.

Pandabeer wrote:
I don't see how CSM are getting gutted, power-wise they look just fine at first glance and the book offers quite a few viable options to play that I'm looking forward to. The only thing I'm absolutely baffled by are some of the equipment options getting removed (no JP Lord/ Sorc, no LC on Raptor champs, no marks on Possessed etc.) but that doesn't mean the faction a whole is gutted.

And, as we keep repeating, this has never been about power.

As for gutted?

Our Cult Troops are gone. They've removed a few other units completely. Many units can't take basic upgrades anymore. One unit (Exalted Champ) lost all its options. Our Daemon Prince entry has an expiry date on it, like they didn't know that the new model was coming at all*. And the one unit we were sure we were getting (Traitor Guard) isn't even there.

Like I said, I'm tired of being a Chaos player who just has stuff taken from him with every new book. My Marines never seem to have to worry about that. My 'Nids didn't either, and they've had one model since, what, 2014? My Eldar only gained stuff. Chaos though, just keep losing.



*And they probably didn't, because GW is so silo'd as to be detrimental to their development.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
And I noticed people talking about Ld9 vehicles, but let's not ignore the Ld10 elephant in the room that is the entire Necron army. They are almost immune to the trait thanks to how hard they are to attrition and their base Ld10 across the army.

To be fair, if there's one army terror tactics shouldn't work on it would be the soulless robots.

I'm not really complaining, just noting that it's an uphill battle. On the plus side at least you can force them to fail leadership tests more often and attrition a little faster.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Pandabeer wrote:
I don't see how CSM are getting gutted, power-wise they look just fine at first glance and the book offers quite a few viable options to play that I'm looking forward to. The only thing I'm absolutely baffled by are some of the equipment options getting removed (no JP Lord/ Sorc, no LC on Raptor champs, no marks on Possessed etc.) but that doesn't mean the faction a whole is gutted.

And, as we keep repeating, this has never been about power.

As for gutted?

Our Cult Troops are gone. They've removed a few other units completely. Many units can't take basic upgrades anymore. One unit (Exalted Champ) lost all its options. Our Daemon Prince entry has an expiry date on it, like they didn't know that the new model was coming at all*. And the one unit we were sure we were getting (Traitor Guard) isn't even there.

Like I said, I'm tired of being a Chaos player who just has stuff taken from him with every new book. My Marines never seem to have to worry about that. My 'Nids didn't either, and they've had one model since, what, 2014? My Eldar only gained stuff. Chaos though, just keep losing.



*And they probably didn't, because GW is so silo'd as to be detrimental to their development.

I mean we did gain *some* stuff so it's more like being forced into a bad trade every edition, but yes, I'm with you on not wanting to have stuff be taken away everytime there's an update.

Pandabeer wrote:
I don't see how CSM are getting gutted, power-wise they look just fine at first glance and the book offers quite a few viable options to play that I'm looking forward to. The only thing I'm absolutely baffled by are some of the equipment options getting removed (no JP Lord/ Sorc, no LC on Raptor champs, no marks on Possessed etc.) but that doesn't mean the faction a whole is gutted.

Marked units (Plague Marines, Rubrics, Zerkers) are gone with only Noise Marines still in because EC haven't got their own Codex yet and the loss of options on core units (core as in the part of something that is central to its existence or character, not the keyword Core) hit pretty big for anyone who hasn't literally just picked up the army in 9th.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I mean we did gain *some* stuff so it's more like being forced into a bad trade every edition, but yes, I'm with you on not wanting to have stuff be taken away everytime there's an update.

Woohoo, some new Cultist units and new sculpts for Possessed. Too bad you can't run a majority Cultist army despite there now being enough variation to make it not intensely boring to do so and Possessed can't be marked despite being closer to their Gods than every other unit besides Daemon Princes.

 Gert wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I mean we did gain *some* stuff so it's more like being forced into a bad trade every edition, but yes, I'm with you on not wanting to have stuff be taken away everytime there's an update.

Woohoo, some new Cultist units and new sculpts for Possessed. Too bad you can't run a majority Cultist army despite there now being enough variation to make it not intensely boring to do so and Possessed can't be marked despite being closer to their Gods than every other unit besides Daemon Princes.

I said it was a bad trade.

Just seems odd that they'd go out of their way to add a Cultist HQ and then not let you take Cultist armies.

I mean, Sisters of Silence got a provision in the Custodes book to run SoS-themed armies. Why couldn't Chaos get the same? Why couldn't they get a "Travelling Players" box ala Eldar, but to give us our Daemons back?

But we got some crazy mutants, so I guess it's ok...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Just seems odd that they'd go out of their way to add a Cultist HQ and then not let you take Cultist armies.

I mean, Sisters of Silence got a provision in the Custodes book to run SoS-themed armies. Why couldn't Chaos get the same? Why couldn't they get a "Travelling Players" box ala Eldar, but to give us our Daemons back?

But we got some crazy mutants, so I guess it's ok...

Probably assuming we'd just spam cultists and Daemon Engines.

I feel like Cultists are *almost* there to feeling like a proper army option, they just need some of their own options for heavy and fast attack. Maybe in 10th they'll get to be their own army.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Probably assuming we'd just spam cultists and Daemon Engines.

And? That sounds awesome!

In fact, it was!

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I feel like Cultists are *almost* there to feeling like a proper army option, they just need some of their own options for heavy and fast attack. Maybe in 10th they'll get to be their own army.

Like, say, a squad of Traitor Guardsmen to make up their "elite" troops?

So I haven't seen anyone talk about the wargear lists, so I dove into the GMG video review because I was still curious to see what options we could work with:


And my best screenshot at max resolution is a mess so let me do my best to translate that to something less pixellated:
Heavy Weapons
Havoc autocannon
Heavy bolter
Lascannon
Missile Launcher
Reaper chaincannon

Melee Weapons
Astartes chainsword
Power axe
Power fist
Power maul
Power sword
Tainted chainaxe (+1 S, AP-1, 2D for 5pts)

Special Weapons
Flamer
Meltagun
Plasma gun


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would have been happy if they at least put an accursed weapon on that melee list for the Chaos Lord to have access to so we can represent random melee wargear choices. Oh well, guess my Chainglaives will be Tainted chainaxes instead.

Wonder why they still have Power Axe, Maul and/or, Sword? The only units that are usuallly found with them are Termies and then they just become accursed weapons. Also just noticed no power fist or chain fist. What's going through GW's head?

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Wonder why they still have Power Axe, Maul and/or, Sword? The only units that are usuallly found with them are Termies and then they just become accursed weapons. Also just noticed no power fist or chain fist. What's going through GW's head?

Power fist is right there on the list below Power axe. Chainfists seem to be limited to kits that contain the actual bit (so Chaos Lords in Terminator Armour and Terminators).

They're in the Terminator Squad, but restricted by sprue, so only 3 Fists and 1 Chainfist per 5.

And it seems a Chaos Lord can't take Lightning Claws at all. Cool.

Even dumber is that he is, by default, equipped with a Plasma Pistol and a Thunder Hammer (because of the model - x2), meaning that his default cost is 115 and taking a bolt pistol actually makes him cheaper. This is so backwards it's not funny.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
They're in the Terminator Squad, but restricted by sprue, so only 3 Fists and 1 Chainfist per 5.

And it seems a Chaos Lord can't take Lightning Claws at all. Cool.

Even dumber is that he is, by default, equipped with a Plasma Pistol and a Thunder Hammer (because of the model - x2), meaning that his default cost is 115 and taking a bolt pistol actually makes him cheaper. This is so backwards it's not funny.

Yeah, like I said I'd live if he could at least take an Accursed Weapon since you can still swap that for the NL claw relic but honestly it does feel like anyone who has a fondness for lighting claws is going to be out in the cold unless GW lets us have them back via FAQ.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
They're in the Terminator Squad, but restricted by sprue, so only 3 Fists and 1 Chainfist per 5.

And it seems a Chaos Lord can't take Lightning Claws at all. Cool.

Even dumber is that he is, by default, equipped with a Plasma Pistol and a Thunder Hammer (because of the model - x2), meaning that his default cost is 115 and taking a bolt pistol actually makes him cheaper. This is so backwards it's not funny.

Yeah, like I said I'd live if he could at least take an Accursed Weapon since you can still swap that for the NL claw relic but honestly it does feel like anyone who has a fondness for lighting claws is going to be out in the cold unless GW lets us have them back via FAQ.

Terminator Chaos Lord should still have option for Lightning Claws, and tbh that might be the better way to take a Chaos Lord. Better armor, can deep strike, can have a broader variety of weapons and therefore relics. Have him drop in with obliterators and/or terminators the same way that chaos players have been doing for the better part of 20 years. Which is almost the age of that Chaos Terminator Lord.

Terminator Lord still has that option, yes.

drbored wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
They're in the Terminator Squad, but restricted by sprue, so only 3 Fists and 1 Chainfist per 5.

And it seems a Chaos Lord can't take Lightning Claws at all. Cool.

Even dumber is that he is, by default, equipped with a Plasma Pistol and a Thunder Hammer (because of the model - x2), meaning that his default cost is 115 and taking a bolt pistol actually makes him cheaper. This is so backwards it's not funny.

Yeah, like I said I'd live if he could at least take an Accursed Weapon since you can still swap that for the NL claw relic but honestly it does feel like anyone who has a fondness for lighting claws is going to be out in the cold unless GW lets us have them back via FAQ.

Terminator Chaos Lord should still have option for Lightning Claws, and tbh that might be the better way to take a Chaos Lord. Better armor, can deep strike, can have a broader variety of weapons and therefore relics. Have him drop in with obliterators and/or terminators the same way that chaos players have been doing for the better part of 20 years. Which is almost the age of that Chaos Terminator Lord.

He's from 2007, so only a "mere" 15 years old at the moment.

And you're right, the Terminator Lord is likely a better option (unless we get jump packs back). Might pick up a second NL Terminator Praetor when the Tartos Terminators drop and nick some extra bits from them since the arms are separate pieces on that Praetor. His Chainglaive would make for a nice conversion bit on other models for example.

I'm actually rather let down by a fair bit of the wargear options we got. Not even looking at the loyalist side, but just comparing the options to the MkVI Sprues has me a little disappointed that we're seeing so little to work with. I'm not even going to pretend to hold my breath that we'll see any FW options from the legions made available to the 40k line even if it would be a simple hand swap to take some of these weapons.

I definitely have to say that rules wise the book has a major glow up in a lot of ways, but it's like watching a horse try to run with a broken leg with how the wargear really doesn't go all the way.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
They're in the Terminator Squad, but restricted by sprue, so only 3 Fists and 1 Chainfist per 5.

And it seems a Chaos Lord can't take Lightning Claws at all. Cool.

Even dumber is that he is, by default, equipped with a Plasma Pistol and a Thunder Hammer (because of the model - x2), meaning that his default cost is 115 and taking a bolt pistol actually makes him cheaper. This is so backwards it's not funny.

Uhm default wargear not being cheapest isn't chaos lord thing. Not been following 40k much it seems.

I know it happens in other books. Doesn't make it any less backwards.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Terminator Lord still has that option, yes.

For how long though? At this point I would be really reluctant to invest in anything made from old kits because I don't know if they'll be invalidated in two years.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Terminator Lord still has that option, yes.

For how long though? At this point I would be really reluctant to invest in anything made from old kits because I don't know if they'll be invalidated in two years.

This is by far one of my biggest problems with Games Workshop, because in all honesty I can't really think of this problem with other companies and games - at least in my experience.

When I buy Waffen-SS for Bolt Action - they are always going to usable. They are historical mins, they are Waffen-SS everywhere - their equipment is universal between games. Sometimes things differ, i.e., unit organisation in Battlegroup is different so I have to reorg squads a bit but I'm not thinking "this unit will, in 5 years time, no longer be legal".

You can say "Well, that's historical games" (another point for historical games) but hell look at Mantic/Kings of War. Units get 'invalidated' but then replaced by other entires which accommodate the previous models. But with GW you now know that no, in a few years time figures may just vanish, and no longer have a place in the army (without extensive proxying, and proxying only takes you so far).

So why invest in an EC army now, for example - in two years time or so, they're gonna get a release (probably like TS, DG, and WE) where a majority of the older EC figures just aren't valid.

Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
( This should probably be in my signature)

Well, considering BoltAction has basically no weapon options (reliably!) this would make the Chosen - accursed weapons - smart Design, jes? Weapon options you do not have can not be obsolete...
No?
I can certainly understand the "no model no rules" concept. And quite frankly this is what happened to the jumppack lord and powerclaws ( although i am truly sad my finecast jumplord with claws is now oop/Legends).
Some things Just have to move along.
I would rather have they did not add more stuff someplace else...
Just looking at all the Options in the Legionaries Datasheet gives me cancer.

Bolt Action has weapons options, and if they would release an updated army book that would replace the options for veterans with generic rifles for everyone, people would not complain, they would just stop playing BA and move over to another game that let them play the models as they are

so it is a little bit tricky to compare, as if people with historical armies are pissed off because of bad rules, they just move on to a different game
(like a lot of people changed from Flames of War to Battlegroup with the last FoW Edition)

People are noticing...

CoALabaer wrote:
Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
( This should probably be in my signature)

"Yeah it sucks all my stuff is invalid."

"You HATE CHANGE. You HATE THE GAME."

Yeah totally man this is definitely true.