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drbored wrote:
Much more important to show off ancient Skaven models.

And illegal/invalid Sorcerers.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

drbored wrote:
Much more important to show off ancient Skaven models.

And illegal/invalid Sorcerers.

Hey! Hey! Guys! They are giving us a (limited) opportunity to get an Exalted Champion with the official totally bestest and most playtested(TM) loadout! What more do you want?/s

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

drbored wrote:
Much more important to show off ancient Skaven models.

And illegal/invalid Sorcerers.

Hey! Hey! Guys! They are giving us a (limited) opportunity to get an Exalted Champion with the official totally bestest and most playtested(TM) loadout! What more do you want?/s

Cultists. Lots of Cultists.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

drbored wrote:
Much more important to show off ancient Skaven models.

And illegal/invalid Sorcerers.

Hey! Hey! Guys! They are giving us a (limited) opportunity to get an Exalted Champion with the official totally bestest and most playtested(TM) loadout! What more do you want?/s

In a world of multi Primaris Lts, a single aspiring champ with his single loadout is all you need!
Stop being greedy, there is a price for treachery after all.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

drbored wrote:
Much more important to show off ancient Skaven models.

And illegal/invalid Sorcerers.

I also don't think people know how bad those sorcerers are as models (I have the sword one somewhere). They're squat and even for old marines, the proportions are even worse than normal.
These are weird guys to bring back for a MTO, for a whole host of reasons.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:


When someone accused you of bad faith/trolling I wasn't willing to accept that, as it would infer a level of malice in your posts. But then you went and said that, so, yeah, you really don't get it...

If I'm accused of being a bad-faith actor or a troll, I'm going to defend myself. The malice I put out is a reflection of the malice that I receive, I'm not big on that "when they go low, we go high" bs. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I also don't see how you get from "you're malicious" to "you don't get it". I "get it" perfectly fine, I just don't agree with your perspective.

Yeah, that's pretty subjective, and has a big "Depends on the Legion" qualifier in it. This codex absolutely gutted Night Lords. The Legion trait is slightly better than the old one, but it's incredibly unbalanced depending on which faction you're playing against. It'll be fairly ludicrous against some, and completely useless against others. And that's just bad design. Couple that with all of our best stratagems either being nerfed or just flat out removed, and the fact that some of the most thematic unit and wargear options for the Legion also went bye bye, and you have a big, greasy hair right in the middle of the "chicken nuggies and a side of fries" that is the 9th edition CSM codex for anyone who plays Night Lords. And it looks even worse compared to the "exquisite ethnic cuisine" laid out on our plate by the HH writers. Seriously, I'd like anyone to give me a reason why any Night Lords player shouldn't just take a walk from this dumpster fire for the greener pastures of HH and the Liber Hereticus.

I don't think its quite that subjective. Yes, the book may have gutted Night Lords (thats a stretch, Rob from Goonhammer is a big NL fan and has quite a different opinion on the matter), but that just makes Night Lords bad (if you buy into that), it doesn't make the entire book bad - which is my main point here. Everyone is freaking out because influencers are generally positive on the book and jumping to silly conspiracy nonsense to try to explain it. They are generally positive because its actually generally a good book - a couple of weak units, underpowered strategems, a dud subfaction, and a couple of fethed up datasheets with limited options doesn't change that. Pretty much every codex has those same issues, its nothing new, not everything in a Codex is going to be great, but that doesn't mean that on the whole the Codex isn't great.

 cole1114 wrote:
This book just... feels bad. Like mechanically it's strong, whatever, I do not play 40k competitively so that doesn't matter to me. It just lacks the stuff that made me love CSM in the first place. Being the army of wild customization, where every unit could feel unique in a variety of ways. The army where you could take twenty marines to a unit, with veteran tactics and marks and icons and all different kinds of weapon choices. And then on top of that my legion would give me bonuses as well.

We just spent years being one of the weakest armies in the game, one where even non-competitive play was painful and we didn't feel anything like we did in previous editions. Now we're a good army that still doesn't feel right at all because they've decided to chop away so many of our customization options. Throwing us marks back as some kind of a pittance, and then not even letting us give them to a huge chunk of our book.

I will miss the 20 man squads, but other than that I don't think the army is as rigidly uncustomizable now as you feel it is. Yes, weapon options in many cases are more restrictive than before, but excessive options go hand in hand with bad balance. If you wanted the army not to be bottom of the barrel then you kind of have to accept the loss of some of those options as a casualty of the efforts to better balance the rules and make units that ended up overpriced and underpowered as a result of them having an excessive menu of options to select from (many people don't realize this but to some extent the cost of additional options is front-loaded into the cost of the unit itself in order to accommodate for a degree of "margin of error" in the units performance resulting from variability in its loadout, this is true even if you don't make use of those options). Its also worth pointing out that a lot of the stuff you're upset about losing is stuff that most people complained about - i.e. layered rules. You want to take your unit, stack vet tactics, marks, icons, and legion bonuses on there, not to mention strategems and combat doctrines, etc. and its a lot. Most people wanted to see these layers of rules cut back and flattened out, and... well... this is what that looks like in practice.

Sorry i call bs, when the baseline legionaires can't even double up on a special or heavy to do a job anymore then that is NOT customizable but just stupid.

Is it stupid? Or is it fluffy because the guys fighting a 10,000 year long war without a solid and consistent industrial base don't have enough weapons to go around to make sure everyone is consistently armed? For all this talk about how the army is supposed to be "chaotic", I feel like people are actually complaining that the army isn't ordered enough. Make no mistake - doubling up on weapons is not chaos, its order and organization, the exact opposite of chaos.

Anyway, Legionnaires having constraints on the options they can take doesn't make the entire book less customizable, it makes one unit *maybe* less customizable, if you ignore the fact that they still have plenty of options that allow you to tailor them to different rolls and that they have additional customization options that they didn't have before like the ability to make a model a psyker and likewise being one of the few units that can do Icon + Mark.

see above, i own 50 of the new CSM sculpts, even more if you count my chosen conversions, all of which are now illegal set ups and no i ain't switching things out for squads that were purposely specialised to do something.

I'm up to over 150 of the new sculpts myself. Yknow, if we're using that as a metric for how much someones opinion matters.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
That's the big question. I'd've thought that they'd be this week - it's not like there are many new releases for CSM - but I guess not.

Weirdly I'm more interesting in the Slaves to Darkness release. I don't even play AoS, but I want that new DP and a box of those awesome looking Chosen.

To release still:
Warpsmith
Commune
Chosen
Possessed
Cultists
Accursed cultists
Repack of oblits + venomcrawler
Release of master of possessions

Ah yeah, the Warpsmith and Chosen. Forgot about them given that they came out (technically) such a long time ago.


chaos: I don't know if anyone's told you this yet, but you can't dig up!

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

drbored wrote:
Much more important to show off ancient Skaven models.

And illegal/invalid Sorcerers.

Hey! Hey! Guys! They are giving us a (limited) opportunity to get an Exalted Champion with the official totally bestest and most playtested(TM) loadout! What more do you want?/s

A codex that doesn't crap on us

I like what CSM got but I don't feel like it was a net gain.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

drbored wrote:
Much more important to show off ancient Skaven models.

And illegal/invalid Sorcerers.

Hey! Hey! Guys! They are giving us a (limited) opportunity to get an Exalted Champion with the official totally bestest and most playtested(TM) loadout! What more do you want?/s

A codex that doesn't crap on us

I like what CSM got but I don't feel like it was a net gain.

I think its mechanically better but it lost a LOT of its fun factor. :/

GW just doesn't care.

It's almost like the 4th Ed book all over again.

Yes, that was a functional Codex.
Yes, it had a lot of power.

And, yes, it took away the fun of Chaos.

I think y'all overestimate the power. I don't think its going to be very amazing outside a couple niche builds.

drbored wrote:


My shop also got a woefully small number of the Chaos Marine codex in stock compared to previous releases. Manager says its due to the paper shortage, but I honestly wonder if GW thought that they really might not sell all that many.

Drove 50 miles to the closest GW on Saturday to pick up my pre-ordered English copy of the Codex cause I wanted to make sure I had it before I took my family on holiday to a place that's even further away from anything 40k than where I live. More fool me. There are four GWs in the greater Berlin area, not one of them actually had an English copy (guy in the shop phoned around for me) and in total they got five German copies. There's deffo a shortage of something, though paper might not have been the only thing grumble grumble incompetent buffoons grumble.

Snugiraffe wrote:

drbored wrote:


My shop also got a woefully small number of the Chaos Marine codex in stock compared to previous releases. Manager says its due to the paper shortage, but I honestly wonder if GW thought that they really might not sell all that many.

Drove 50 miles to the closest GW on Saturday to pick up my pre-ordered English copy of the Codex cause I wanted to make sure I had it before I took my family on holiday to a place that's even further away from anything 40k than where I live. More fool me. There are four GWs in the greater Berlin area, not one of them actually had an English copy (guy in the shop phoned around for me) and in total they got five German copies. There's deffo a shortage of something, though paper might not have been the only thing grumble grumble incompetent buffoons grumble.

Yeah, my manager said that a lot of the other stores he knows about also got small shipments of the book. Of course, lot of fat good the book will do when we don't even have some of the models to buy for it.

Even during the big contrast paint bundle online thing, it was botched for North America, so 2 minutes in it showed 'sold out' despite all the paints being available. Just a mess. There was apparently even another distribution issue that the CEO and CFO were involved in to get fixed.

These, plus like 2 or 3 instances of the warehouse robots being borked due to system issues and whatnot... GW is really struggling to keep their own product flowing, and for a company that relies on their own product getting into people's hands, they seem to be tripping on a lot of things. Not all of them are their own fault, but some of them seem to be.

Snugiraffe wrote:

drbored wrote:


My shop also got a woefully small number of the Chaos Marine codex in stock compared to previous releases. Manager says its due to the paper shortage, but I honestly wonder if GW thought that they really might not sell all that many.

Drove 50 miles to the closest GW on Saturday to pick up my pre-ordered English copy of the Codex cause I wanted to make sure I had it before I took my family on holiday to a place that's even further away from anything 40k than where I live. More fool me. There are four GWs in the greater Berlin area, not one of them actually had an English copy (guy in the shop phoned around for me) and in total they got five German copies. There's deffo a shortage of something, though paper might not have been the only thing grumble grumble incompetent buffoons grumble.

Did GW finally run out of money? lol

The copies from the place I ordered it from were all dinged up on the corners, so they're getting replacements in rather than send those out.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
I think y'all overestimate the power. I don't think its going to be very amazing outside a couple niche builds.

I don't really care if it's powerful.

I only care that it's another Chaos Codex that has taken more than it has given.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The copies from the place I ordered it from were all dinged up on the corners, so they're getting replacements in rather than send those out.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
I think y'all overestimate the power. I don't think its going to be very amazing outside a couple niche builds.

I don't really care if it's powerful.

I only care that it's another Chaos Codex that has taken more than it has given.

I'm not sure it's fair to say it hasn't given a lot, the issue is that the stuff it has given (baked in legion stuff, functional marks, improved units) are all stuff that the faction had before and had been stripped out. If you only started 8th onward this codex is a break even at worst, its just a net loss for older/longer players.

If only there was a solution that would allow GW to produce rules without suffering from paper shortages, shipping issues and inventory mismanagement...

 Jidmah wrote:
If only there was a solution that would allow GW to produce rules without suffering from paper shortages, shipping issues and inventory mismanagement...

But that would distract from all of GWs fool proof business strategies! Such as starting streaming services, and selling models without rules!

Yes, weapon options in many cases are more restrictive than before, but excessive options go hand in hand with bad balance. If you wanted the army not to be bottom of the barrel then you kind of have to accept the loss of some of those options as a casualty of the efforts to better balance the rules

30K Liber Traitor book says otherwise.

They eviscerated what Chaos in 40K has. All I needed to see was that nearly every Chaos player in my local meta posted their armies for sale since Friday. Only three out of 12 are keeping their army. Actions speak louder than words.

And who said anything about excessive options?

Take the Exalted Champion. He no longer has options!!! Just one set loadout that cannot be changed. At all.

And that's just one example or so many, none of which were 'excessive'.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Sorry i call bs, when the baseline legionaires can't even double up on a special or heavy to do a job anymore then that is NOT customizable but just stupid.

Is it stupid? Or is it fluffy because the guys fighting a 10,000 year long war without a solid and consistent industrial base don't have enough weapons to go around to make sure everyone is consistently armed? For all this talk about how the army is supposed to be "chaotic", I feel like people are actually complaining that the army isn't ordered enough. Make no mistake - doubling up on weapons is not chaos, its order and organization, the exact opposite of chaos.

Anyway, Legionnaires having constraints on the options they can take doesn't make the entire book less customizable, it makes one unit *maybe* less customizable, if you ignore the fact that they still have plenty of options that allow you to tailor them to different rolls and that they have additional customization options that they didn't have before like the ability to make a model a psyker and likewise being one of the few units that can do Icon + Mark.

Chaos doesn't mean randumb or outright short on brainhalfes, people that accept this are half the reason why GW keeps getting away with such gak.. And the darkmech exists, as does slave labour. And what does it matter if i can mark and icon a squad of legionaires as i should, when i can't do so for possessed? Why can't i strap a balefire book ontop of a chosen champion?
oh and lets not kid ourselves the limit on not doubling up on heavies is because GW fethed up with a certain weapon that comes with havocs 1 / 5, and gw insiting that double shooting is a acceptable stratagem. its not.

see above, i own 50 of the new CSM sculpts, even more if you count my chosen conversions, all of which are now illegal set ups and no i ain't switching things out for squads that were purposely specialised to do something.

I'm up to over 150 of the new sculpts myself. Yknow, if we're using that as a metric for how much someones opinion matters.

Good for you, i am sure that you are happy since you have shown repeatedly that stupid nonsense is acceptable to you as long as Daddy GW tells you to say yes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Togusa wrote:

Yes, weapon options in many cases are more restrictive than before, but excessive options go hand in hand with bad balance. If you wanted the army not to be bottom of the barrel then you kind of have to accept the loss of some of those options as a casualty of the efforts to better balance the rules

30K Liber Traitor book says otherwise.

They eviscerated what Chaos in 40K has. All I needed to see was that nearly every Chaos player in my local meta posted their armies for sale since Friday. Only three out of 12 are keeping their army. Actions speak louder than words.

it's also a ridicoulus claim, because GW would have the option to fine tune a whole lot of things including but not limited stats of weapons and points and profiles, they just choose not to, in order to sell a solution to a problem they themselves created with the next edition. Remember this one was praised as more CP for everyone compared to the former and now we are at less CP.

H.B.M.C. wrote:And who said anything about excessive options?

Take the Exalted Champion. He no longer has options!!! Just one set loadout that cannot be changed. At all.

And that's just one example or so many, none of which were 'excessive'.

But we can customize them with traits and Stratagems.

Lord forbid we create datasheets that could pick a model of transportation, with an associated pricetag, better to make that cost CP which varies HEAVILY in opportunity cost, truly it is a measurement unit that works WONDERS.

we now got what another X relics and stratagems for x legions, but that is good bloat? meanwhile handing the champion a jumpack and twin lighning claws is somehow bad bloat? i am sure the former is far superior and has no issues at all compared to the later... nope that couldn't be, it isn't as we had relics that were just always picked, nope we didn't have that, same with traits, right?

/S.

As a complete aside? Is this the first MTO plastic model for 40K? I think LOTR may have had some?

MTO is super hit and miss tbh. Like, was anyone really asking for these Sorcerer figures (who we've had already?) I guess it's down to what moulds are available, and off the top of my head I can't think of any other figures they could do. Maybe the old limited edition CSM Army Champion?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
As a complete aside? Is this the first MTO plastic model for 40K? I think LOTR may have had some?

No, the plastic 3rd ed Dark Eldar and Marine sprues were MTOed a little while ago.

God knows why they picked those either.

On the plus side, the sorcerers have already been MTOed once in 2019. So if we can have MTOs more than once, can we please have the Diaz Deamonettes and Seekers again please. Those still fetch a bundle on Ebay even after their MTO.

Or some of the other obvious MTOs that have never been done - the metal chaos icon toppers, the Praetorian XXIV, the metal Legion of the Damned, Eldar Bonesingers, Angkor Phrok, Gorkamorka grots, pretty much any of the models from the Blackstone Fortress expansions, OG Necromunda bulkheads, a bunch of WFB stuff (especially Brettonia and Tomb Kings)...

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

drbored wrote:
Much more important to show off ancient Skaven models.

And illegal/invalid Sorcerers.

Hey! Hey! Guys! They are giving us a (limited) opportunity to get an Exalted Champion with the official totally bestest and most playtested(TM) loadout! What more do you want?/s

My bloody Traitor Guard to be playable with the new CSM Codex, just like how GW promised.

Voss wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

drbored wrote:
Much more important to show off ancient Skaven models.

And illegal/invalid Sorcerers.

I also don't think people know how bad those sorcerers are as models (I have the sword one somewhere). They're squat and even for old marines, the proportions are even worse than normal.
These are weird guys to bring back for a MTO, for a whole host of reasons.

Yeah, the Sorcerers are 2nd ed models that predate even the 3rd ed Marine anatomy. They are slightly chunkier and have no necks, so they look compressed compared to 3rd ed Marine models, let alone modern revised anatomy.

 The Phazer wrote:
On the plus side, the sorcerers have already been MTOed once in 2019. So if we can have MTOs more than once, can we please have the Diaz Deamonettes and Seekers again please. Those still fetch a bundle on Ebay even after their MTO.

Or some of the other obvious MTOs that have never been done - the metal chaos icon toppers, the Praetorian XXIV, the metal Legion of the Damned, Eldar Bonesingers, Angkor Phrok, Gorkamorka grots, pretty much any of the models from the Blackstone Fortress expansions, OG Necromunda bulkheads, a bunch of WFB stuff (especially Brettonia and Tomb Kings)...

I'd throw a lot of money at GW if they did a Tomb Kings made to order, which is the number one reason why they won't do it.

At the very least, the exalted champion doesn't have half his foot fused to the base, so that swapping him to a larger base isn't an issue. (Strange that the sculpted base has a dead necron, since he was released around the time of DV, but good on GW for variety.)

The arms not being fused also make it easier for conversion (though once again, the model will be noticeably smaller than current CSMs, so why bother?)

Still, makes you wonder why a one week MTO model is codex worthy, but a jump pack chaos lord who is only on "range rotation" got the axe? It's honestly harder to kitbash an exalted champion, because although it's easy to find axe and knife arms, 90% of CSM melee weapons are left handed, and you still need to attach the combi bolter. Its much easier to make a jumppack lord....

chaos0xomega wrote:

Yeah, that's pretty subjective, and has a big "Depends on the Legion" qualifier in it. This codex absolutely gutted Night Lords. The Legion trait is slightly better than the old one, but it's incredibly unbalanced depending on which faction you're playing against. It'll be fairly ludicrous against some, and completely useless against others. And that's just bad design. Couple that with all of our best stratagems either being nerfed or just flat out removed, and the fact that some of the most thematic unit and wargear options for the Legion also went bye bye, and you have a big, greasy hair right in the middle of the "chicken nuggies and a side of fries" that is the 9th edition CSM codex for anyone who plays Night Lords. And it looks even worse compared to the "exquisite ethnic cuisine" laid out on our plate by the HH writers. Seriously, I'd like anyone to give me a reason why any Night Lords player shouldn't just take a walk from this dumpster fire for the greener pastures of HH and the Liber Hereticus.

I don't think its quite that subjective. Yes, the book may have gutted Night Lords (thats a stretch, Rob from Goonhammer is a big NL fan and has quite a different opinion on the matter), but that just makes Night Lords bad (if you buy into that), it doesn't make the entire book bad - which is my main point here. Everyone is freaking out because influencers are generally positive on the book and jumping to silly conspiracy nonsense to try to explain it. They are generally positive because its actually generally a good book - a couple of weak units, underpowered strategems, a dud subfaction, and a couple of fethed up datasheets with limited options doesn't change that. Pretty much every codex has those same issues, its nothing new, not everything in a Codex is going to be great, but that doesn't mean that on the whole the Codex isn't great.

Yeah, that guy said that gw had "done right by Night Lords". But then he turned right around and said "Capping out at -3 isn't terrible, but it does mean that you'll struggle to get your fun effects off against Ld9+ targets, which make up an infuriatingly large percentage of the game's units for no particular reason". So even your example of a "positive reviewer" recognizes the problem.

And it's very subjective. Everyone isn't looking for the same things. Some of us would much rather have actual options and customization rather than shoot/fight twice stratagems. It especially makes a difference whether or not you play the "dud subfaction".

 GaroRobe wrote:

At the very least, the exalted champion doesn't have half his foot fused to the base, so that swapping him to a larger base isn't an issue. (Strange that the sculpted base has a dead necron, since he was released around the time of DV, but good on GW for variety.)

The arms not being fused also make it easier for conversion (though once again, the model will be noticeably smaller than current CSMs, so why bother?)

Still, makes you wonder why a one week MTO model is codex worthy, but a jump pack chaos lord who is only on "range rotation" got the axe? It's honestly harder to kitbash an exalted champion, because although it's easy to find axe and knife arms, 90% of CSM melee weapons are left handed, and you still need to attach the combi bolter. Its much easier to make a jumppack lord....

Likely because they have model plans or know that the model was in excessive circulation. The AdMech book features the Technoarchaeologist from Combat Arena/BSF: Escalation...but not the Servitor that came with them. It's a heck of a bit more of an issue to make a conversion when two of the loadout pieces(Servo-Arc Claw and Eradication Pistol) are not available anywhere else.

All of that said:
It wouldn't be that difficult to make an Exalted Champion. There's a power axe in the main CSM box for the Aspiring Champion. There's also one in the yet to be released Chosen kit. The combi-bolter is probably the hardest part to be sure.