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 Argive wrote:
Infiltrators have a DS denial bubble right ?

Interesting rule interaction. Is there a way to resolve (can't deploy within 12" vs can deploy even in engagement range)?

Edit. I think I found it in the Rare Rules section. Interesting play from the Marine player. Definitely a tactic I'll need to be on the lookout for.

Im no marine player but those infilitrators have always semed to me like having good value at zoning out. Think they have a scout deployment as well.

They do and their rule preventing units setting up within 12" takes precedence. I've not encountered that situation while using a Wraithgate and it had not occurred to me.

 Sarigar wrote:
They do and their rule preventing units setting up within 12" takes precedence. I've not encountered that situation while using a Wraithgate and it had not occurred to me.

In terms of technicality is a disembark or a re-enforcement?

Reinforcement.

Someone tried to resolve it on Reddit: "People here are conflating rules. There's two distinct statuses - Reserves and Reinforcements.
Reserves - Any unit that is held back from initial deployment and then placed on the table later. Standard Terminators, drop pods and manta strike apply to this.
Reinforcements - Any unit that that is set up on the battlefield except for units within transports. It is specifically FAQ'd to include anything with the wording "removed from the battlefield and then set up again." Terminators fall under this too, but things like 'Da Jump' or Tide of Traitors or Teleport Homers are reinforcements as well.
All reserves are reinforcements but not all reinforcements are reserves, just like all squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares.
Omni-scramblers work against reinforcements, which means both regular reserves and 'reposition' reinforcements. As a general rule, if anything just appears next to them without actually moving the intervening distance, then they're locked out from 12."

Although this is contradicted by the Codex:

"Webway Strike: Each time an AELDARI unit from your army arrives from Strategic Reserves, you can choose to set it up anywhere on the battlefield that is wholly within 6" of both of the Wraithbone Arches of a friendly WEBWAY GATE unit. If you do so, that AELDARI unit can be set up within 9" of enemy models, and can be set up within Engagement Range of enemy models. If an AELDARI unit is set up within Engagement Range of any enemy models in this way, it counts as having made a charge move this turn (Overwatch attacks cannot be made against that unit), and until the end of the turn, that unit can target any enemy unit it is within Engagement Range of with melee attacks, even though it did not declare a charge this turn."

So roll a dice to see which interpretation works that turn?

CB

 Captain Brown wrote:
Someone tried to resolve it on Reddit: "People here are conflating rules. There's two distinct statuses - Reserves and Reinforcements.
Reserves - Any unit that is held back from initial deployment and then placed on the table later. Standard Terminators, drop pods and manta strike apply to this.
Reinforcements - Any unit that that is set up on the battlefield except for units within transports. It is specifically FAQ'd to include anything with the wording "removed from the battlefield and then set up again." Terminators fall under this too, but things like 'Da Jump' or Tide of Traitors or Teleport Homers are reinforcements as well.
All reserves are reinforcements but not all reinforcements are reserves, just like all squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares.
Omni-scramblers work against reinforcements, which means both regular reserves and 'reposition' reinforcements. As a general rule, if anything just appears next to them without actually moving the intervening distance, then they're locked out from 12."

Although this is contradicted by the Codex:

"Webway Strike: Each time an AELDARI unit from your army arrives from Strategic Reserves, you can choose to set it up anywhere on the battlefield that is wholly within 6" of both of the Wraithbone Arches of a friendly WEBWAY GATE unit. If you do so, that AELDARI unit can be set up within 9" of enemy models, and can be set up within Engagement Range of enemy models. If an AELDARI unit is set up within Engagement Range of any enemy models in this way, it counts as having made a charge move this turn (Overwatch attacks cannot be made against that unit), and until the end of the turn, that unit can target any enemy unit it is within Engagement Range of with melee attacks, even though it did not declare a charge this turn."

So roll a dice to see which interpretation works that turn?

CB

Rare Rules #26 appears to address this interaction and the Infiltrators ability takes precedence. I don't see where there is a need for a roll off in this case.

So I am easing my way back into 40k and have an opinion question.

Seeing that Dire Avengers got moved back to the Elites slot, would it be more efficient to look into 2x Patrol over a Battalion to cut down on the Troops tax? Or would switching to a Patrol + Vanguard and nearly cutting out Troops entirely in favor of around 4x 6 model DA squads with Asurmen be alright?

I know that this question sits in sort of a vacuum without seeing a whole list. At this stage I am looking to figure out my "core" of stuff and build around it.

This would be Ulthwe CW for what its worth. That part is set for me as that is what I have painted.

 Marius Xerxes wrote:
So I am easing my way back into 40k and have an opinion question.

Seeing that Dire Avengers got moved back to the Elites slot, would it be more efficient to look into 2x Patrol over a Battalion to cut down on the Troops tax? Or would switching to a Patrol + Vanguard and nearly cutting out Troops entirely in favor of around 4x 6 model DA squads with Asurmen be alright?

I know that this question sits in sort of a vacuum without seeing a whole list. At this stage I am looking to figure out my "core" of stuff and build around it.

This would be Ulthwe CW for what its worth. That part is set for me as that is what I have painted.

If you're using the newest tourney pack, I think a battalion is pretty important there. If not, then a patrol and like an outrider is pretty standard

 Marius Xerxes wrote:
So I am easing my way back into 40k and have an opinion question.

Seeing that Dire Avengers got moved back to the Elites slot, would it be more efficient to look into 2x Patrol over a Battalion to cut down on the Troops tax? Or would switching to a Patrol + Vanguard and nearly cutting out Troops entirely in favor of around 4x 6 model DA squads with Asurmen be alright?

Just remember, as DA are no longer Troops, the Rule of 3 applies to them so you can only have 3 squads of DA max.

Guardian defenders aren't bad in ulthwe, three as a way to fill out a battalion is probably worth it for me.
The +1 to hit ulthwe strat is pretty decent for getting that bit extra from your guardians and windriders.
You can go for a bigger single squad if you just go for a patrol and drop them out of the webway for a very effective guardian bomb.

stratigo wrote:If you're using the newest tourney pack, I think a battalion is pretty important there. If not, then a patrol and like an outrider is pretty standard

Got it. I would be using the Warzone Nephilim pack, yes. Is this for CP reasons? To start with a few more basically?

SaganGree wrote:Just remember, as DA are no longer Troops, the Rule of 3 applies to them so you can only have 3 squads of DA max.

Thank you for the reminder. I was list building and remembered the rule of three for other selections but totally spaced on DA having that issue now as well!

kingheff wrote:Guardian defenders aren't bad in ulthwe, three as a way to fill out a battalion is probably worth it for me.
The +1 to hit ulthwe strat is pretty decent for getting that bit extra from your guardians and windriders.
You can go for a bigger single squad if you just go for a patrol and drop them out of the webway for a very effective guardian bomb.

I had started off with three squads of 10 in a battalion. But the points investment seemed less efficient than going with 3x Rangers. Then I started looking outside of a battalion because Troops started to feel more like a tax altogether when compared to the options in other slots.

I think storm guardian blob with serpent shield as an annoying objective holder is really good. DA are so much better at shooting than guardians I dont see the point in normal guardians for the points.

It's now 260 PTS for 20 avengers with 66 shots or 270 PTS for 30 defenders with 60 shots. The avengers have the better AP and the invulnerable save but you gain 8 wounds and obsec with the guardians. I think defenders are definitely worth it in ulthwe or hail lists but everyone's mileage may vary of course. 😉

Dire Avengers win vs Guardians and other shuriken platforms for several other reasons:
1. Wrath of Khaine is an amazing secondary if you go hard into Aspect Warriors
2. You can spend 15 points to give a unit of Avengers DOUBLE OBSEC
3. You can shoot and do actions with Avengers.

So not only are Avengers the better unit in terms of lethality per point, but they also contribute to your mission play and scoring HARD.
30 Avengers should be the basis of every semi-competitive+ list.


Separate Topic:
I've been putting up some fairly reasonable tournament results one 3-0, one 2-1 with a triple phoenix lord build using Baharroth, Karrandras, and either Asurmen or Jain Zar.
Not only are they obsec, slap in combat, and are unkillable if you put them into the right situations. But they also trigger Wrath of Khaine.
So it's fun, because you get to play herohammer, but also a competitive build.

I'm inconclusive whether wraithblades, or more aspects are the correct support. I'm leaning blades because too many units is bad if you're put on the clock.

 Aelthran wrote:
Dire Avengers win vs Guardians and other shuriken platforms for several other reasons:
1. Wrath of Khaine is an amazing secondary if you go hard into Aspect Warriors
2. You can spend 15 points to give a unit of Avengers DOUBLE OBSEC
3. You can shoot and do actions with Avengers.

So not only are Avengers the better unit in terms of lethality per point, but they also contribute to your mission play and scoring HARD.
30 Avengers should be the basis of every semi-competitive+ list.


Separate Topic:
I've been putting up some fairly reasonable tournament results one 3-0, one 2-1 with a triple phoenix lord build using Baharroth, Karrandras, and either Asurmen or Jain Zar.
Not only are they obsec, slap in combat, and are unkillable if you put them into the right situations. But they also trigger Wrath of Khaine.
So it's fun, because you get to play herohammer, but also a competitive build.

I'm inconclusive whether wraithblades, or more aspects are the correct support. I'm leaning blades because too many units is bad if you're put on the clock.

Thank you for the insight! I had totally looked over the PL's giving themself Obj Sec! I was already looking at fitting Asurmen into my list. That only adds to it.

If you don't mind my asking, what, if anything, do you feel you sacrifice by always bringing 30 Avengers? What else are solid options in the Elite slot paired with that? How do you deliver the Avengers? Serpents or Webway?

Thirty avengers is really contingent on hail of doom

And a battalion is for cp, yes

stratigo wrote:
Thirty avengers is really contingent on hail of doom

And a battalion is for cp, yes

True... but Avengers are by far the most point efficient model in the Elite slot, imo. Especially with how important actions are in the secondary game, being able to shoot and take an action without outside help, makes them an auto include for me. Don't get me wrong, you can go with other elites over DAs but you have to build specifically for it. On a side note... I wonder if 18 warlocks would be fun....

Honestly I think hail of doom is the way to play still. Armor of contempt ruins shuriken without hitting those 6s

While Hail of Doom makes Avengers great, there's no denying that, I am not of the belief that it is necessary. My biggest issue with hail of doom is that it rewards going all in. Units like windrider bikes are incredible and also benefit from Hail, but with secondaries being what they are I don't think its easy to put so much into killing power which is not scoring me points on Wrath of Khaine. So you take hail and your avengers get better, but nothing else benefits, at least in aspect heavy builds.

Personally I'm liking Masterful Shots paired with Savage Blades. So both avengers and hawks benefit from the removal of light cover, and all of your melee gets marginally better with the extra AP on the charge. This spreads around your benefits much more. Against armor of contempt you're putting marines on a 4+ at worst not counting 6's to wound or jinx. And from a support perspective it just encourages doom over guide. Aaaand against banshees marines get nothing, nada.

The only other elite slots which I think are really needed are Howling Banshees, and warlocks. Now not saying there aren't other amazing elite choices, looking at you scorpions and wraithlords, but if we're talking what's on the chopping block when points/slots get tight...

In terms of delivery for avengers, I would not consider a wave serpent an option, and I think webway gates are only good if you build around them (mostly because they make hidden path worse, and avengers don't really need to arrive close to the enemy to function). So personally, I must start with 3cp so I can webway one of the avengers and have the option to reserve the other two. This way the avengers can come in where needed, overwhelm weak flanks and backfields, but also do an action such as RND while they're at it. Sometimes however I've just got the one squad in the webway, and I'll play two on the table. If they're on the table I'll often fire and fade one early in the game while I'm still skirmishing and not presenting targets to put out some early damage without giving the opponent a chance to respond.

Note: All of this is biased towards me being a control player, not an aggro.

SaganGree wrote:

stratigo wrote:
Thirty avengers is really contingent on hail of doom

And a battalion is for cp, yes

True... but Avengers are by far the most point efficient model in the Elite slot, imo. Especially with how important actions are in the secondary game, being able to shoot and take an action without outside help, makes them an auto include for me. Don't get me wrong, you can go with other elites over DAs but you have to build specifically for it. On a side note... I wonder if 18 warlocks would be fun....

I think you can only take 3 warlocks per conclave now?

Up to 6 if on foot. Up to 3 if on bike.

Idk about foot warlocks as something you go all out on, but I have tried 3 man bike conclaves and those were pretty solid. Used them to cast my support powers (mostly quicken since I can use fate dice without fear of dying from perils)(and protect), and screen my backfield. Then late game coming out after most of the big guns are down to clear objectives with shuriken and smites. I find their melee prowess to be intensely disappointing however.

I don't know what foot warlocks really do since they are hyper fragile to small arms, and won't get catapults. Really it seems like you're maximizing melee weapons per point, but as I mentioned above, I don't believe this is an optimal strategy. If I "had" to do this strategy I would consider Savage Blades + Ambush of Blades + Jinx to bring them up to AP -4..... which now that I've written it out certainly seems like it could have uses

RE:Ambush of Blades requires Core or Character which a unit of 6 Warlocks lacks. However, Savage Blades and Jinx is interesting. A unit of 6 Warlocks is only 120 points. Only 12 attacks, but interesting if built around a melee centric army. I've been less than enthused of late with Craftworld builds, but this piqued my curiosity.

 Sarigar wrote:
RE:Ambush of Blades requires Core or Character which a unit of 6 Warlocks lacks. However, Savage Blades and Jinx is interesting. A unit of 6 Warlocks is only 120 points. Only 12 attacks, but interesting if built around a melee centric army. I've been less than enthused of late with Craftworld builds, but this piqued my curiosity.

Ahh, fair point, I was shooting from the hip on that one. Probably wasn't worth the cp for the warlord trait anyway.
I think if you're hiding the warlocks all game and casting powers until someone gets close and you're just using them for some additional counter charge then its a fine unit. Nothing to write home about, but worth a shot I guess. The ppm isn't backbreaking after all. You could also use them to gain access to some of the lesser used powers.

Playing a Saim Hann list what do you guys think would be the greatest secondary objectives for waves of Windriders and shining spears?

so I want to play this



but I only own 3 d-cannons and dont have enough platforms or similar to proxy them. im thinking either running one battery of three or taking them all out. im actually not too sold on them if I can't have all 6.

what could take their place? its 400 points. could be a ton of war walkers with scatters for the shots or maybe lances for the antitank that the d-cannons represent. Or maybe something crazy like 2 falcons with lance and pulselasers. they sort of combo well if you use the spare points for some avengers or whatever.

just spitballing here. any suggestions?

Hard to beat fire prisms with -5 AP and ignore invulns with linked fire. With vectored engines you can move them back into cover once per game and keep them alive. And with strands of fate auto hitting and wounding if needed is amazing. They are 185 each I think upgraded. In the age of invulns and armor of contempt it’s the most powerful weapon in our arsenal for blasting super tough units off the map


Automatically Appended Next Post:
D cannons can work but they are short range and best run with 6 or more. I’ve used 9 before and utterly murdered with them lmao

yeah, I thought about them. But with the new cp rules I feel 2 for linked fire is pretty steep. But ok. You might be right, more often than not you only use it a few times. Also, no matter how many vectored engines you have, you can still only do fire n fade OPG as per the latest nerf, right?

Correct. But you only need to linked fire once probably to kill their biggest threat with invulns.