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On anecdotes, I had a friend and a few acquaintances who played Warmachine. However, having played MTG with them and hearing them talk, I knew better than to play WMH with them. The whole appeal of the game was to give power gamers an excuse to be TFG. I remember hearing a lot of “if everything’s broken, then nothing is broken” and “it makes you bring your A game” and the like. No one seemed to enjoy their games unless they won, they never talked about the background at all, and rarely about the look of the minis. Apparently WMH appealed to a very specific mindset back then. And now it will have that reputation for ever.


As for the minis, I’d try them out for a reasonable price. I enjoy a lot of WMH’s designs. Their prices, though, are forbidding. Perhaps this will be an opportunity for me, as last edition change I was able to buy a bunch of the previous edition starters at attractive prices.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Open question on that note.

Do you think there is enough good will left for the game and models, to make the possibility of someone else buying the IP should PP completely blow it and go under?

Anyone buying the game will have to deal with the game’s reputation, the game’s legion of disaffected ex-fans, the game’s glut of unsold miniatures/gargantuan second-hand market, and a market full of better, successful games built later using the lessons of WMH’s failure.

It strikes me as kind of funny. People are saying that $200 is a lot of money to start an army but if GW puts out a patrol for $140 that's just business as usual. GW charges $200+ for a box set of units at Christmas time that can't even be played as a stand alone force most of the time. Double standard much?

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
It strikes me as kind of funny. People are saying that $200 is a lot of money to start an army but if GW puts out a patrol for $140 that's just business as usual. GW charges $200+ for a box set of units at Christmas time that can't even be played as a stand alone force most of the time. Double standard much?

GW has certainly upped the buy-in cost over the last year, esp since they started retiring the old Getting Started sets and introduced Vanguard sets which do contain more models, but at a higher price.

I think the issue with Warmachine is that the Buy In set is on its own. GW at least has as few avenues (Warcry, Underworlds Killteam) that give some options for cheaper buy-in. Furthermore Warmachine hasn't got a big fanbase, its almost hitting the market fresh. High buy-in costs are a big worry for that because its a lot harder to get your friend to start up a new game for $200 flat entry cost.

GW can get away with it because they've sheer momentum in the market. Even if those higher priced sets aren't bought up by newbies, they are bought up by established fans in droves.



It's a worry because games like Malifaux, Infinity, Dystopian Wars - all and more all have really low entry costs to get into them. Half or less than the buy-in for the proposed Warmachine.
So its not so much that the market can't take $200 sets, it 100% can and GW and many others prove it (Dystopian Wars, Dropfleet/ Dropzone - all have high priced big sets - even Infinity is now pushing into that market with £80-90 boxed sets of models). The issue is can the market take a $200 buy-in set for a game that's basically trying to re-establish itself in the market and rebuild its customer base.

The expression " A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush" exist for a reason and in this case those other birds aren't just in the bush there in someone elses hands. In other words pissing off your existing customer base to try to chase customers already playing GW and similar is just moronic. Second can someone point me to this canceled Warcaster kickstarter that keeps being mentioned because I'm pretty sure its one of those internet fables like half the stuff being posted in this thread. Whats funny is if that was the case it would just reinforce the stupidity of their actions as they make WM more like Warcaster.

As to overreads point people don't seem to grok the huge inbuilt advantage GW has just by their market penetration. If I go to the game store 45 minutes west of me, I might be able to get in a game of BTech, If I go to the game store an hour south of me I might be able to get in a game of infinity but both of them as well as the other game store 45 minutes south all have just about a guaranteed opportunity to get in a game of 40k. A decent number of people play 40k because people play 40k so despite company behavior if you want to game 40k is your best shot. Privateer doesn't have that luxury.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
It strikes me as kind of funny. People are saying that $200 is a lot of money to start an army but if GW puts out a patrol for $140 that's just business as usual. GW charges $200+ for a box set of units at Christmas time that can't even be played as a stand alone force most of the time. Double standard much?

Not really. The initial buy in for Warmachine (ie, a starter box consisting of a Warcaster and 2-4 warjacks, depending on faction) was $50. Depending on how fast you wanted to scale up, you could add another jack, a solo and a unit for around another $100 and have a basic army ready to go. (early days of mark 1, mind, and yes, depending on faction you could build a far more expensive force to fit the standard point value). Over time, prices, points and size of the 'standard battle' all shifted dramatically, to the point that a single unit was $100+ (cavalry was such a 'fun' addition to the game).

And now here we are back at the beginning and a starter force is 4x more expensive than the old starting point, and more expensive than a fairly 'complete' and functional army on the low end of the points scale. And with cheaper material and cheaper machines to make it, with quality in question. (And their foray into plastic leaves a lot of doubts about their ability to quality pieces in another new medium).

Jerram wrote:
The expression " A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush" exist for a reason and in this case those other birds aren't just in the bush there in someone elses hands. In other words pissing off your existing customer base to try to chase customers already playing GW and similar is just moronic. Second can someone point me to this canceled Warcaster kickstarter that keeps being mentioned because I'm pretty sure its one of those internet fables like half the stuff being posted in this thread. Whats funny is if that was the case it would just reinforce the stupidity of their actions as they make WM more like Warcaster.

As to overreads point people don't seem to grok the huge inbuilt advantage GW has just by their market penetration. If I go to the game store 45 minutes west of me, I might be able to get in a game of BTech, If I go to the game store an hour south of me I might be able to get in a game of infinity but both of them as well as the other game store 45 minutes south all have just about a guaranteed opportunity to get in a game of 40k. A decent number of people play 40k because people play 40k so despite company behavior if you want to game 40k is your best shot. Privateer doesn't have that luxury.

It wasn’t Warcaster that was cancelled, it was the move to turn Riot Quest into a full fledged board game.
As usual, PP doesn’t understand gamers in any genre based on the offering.
To say that it was poorly marketed is an understatement.
So it’s not some internet fable, simply the wrong game. And I wouldn’t suggest calling folks in this thread uninformed or trying to rock the boat. It’s quite clear we’re all fans here and want PP to succeed.
They’re just not doing a very good job of that anymore.

The cancelled Riot Quest speaks volumes about how little PP knows about marketing.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/privateerpress/riot-quest-board-game-edition?ref=nav_search&result=project&term=Riot%20quest

Don't get me wrong. I think $200 is a large amount of money. I haven't seen what PP is selling in their starter sets. I presume 1 Warcaster, 2-3 Hvys (or 3-5 Light) jacks, an infantry unit (or 2) and, a solo (or 2). Going off old PP prices that comes close to what you'd pay, except if you got the 2 player boxset. The starter with Caster and Jacks about 50. An extra jack about 35. A max unit around 45 and a solo 12. Total about 137 in 2017 dollars.

Again I have no idea what's in a new starter but I'm willing to wait and see.

I'm more unhappy with the fact that the "Hordes" side of the game is being ignored until at least 2024.

That one I know about but that's very different from a cancelled Warcaster that was said. I think that demonstrates PP just doesn't understand their customer base, I think that's been demonstrated multiple times since the triple whammies during the launch of Mk3.


Hordes joins Mk4 in August of 23, not that its significantly better. Of course Im really not sure what kind of game environment they think they're going to have before then anyways. I'm not sure I've ever seen such a piss poor roadmap even from Lockbonortheon.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
If GW bought it (it’s not a rumour. Stop that. Step away from Reddit and 4chan this instant!)…would that be the wargames equivalent of Sonic on Nintendo?

GW isn't a very aggressive company when it comes to expanding to other IP, the last big brand-new IP venture they made was lord of the rings two decades ago. AoS is more like a sequel to their existing IP.

I would sooner expect a big faceless multinational conglomerate to buy them up like asmodee/embracer group or some chinese mega company, they love aggressive expansion and gobbling up other IP.

It's probably to GW's disadvantage they are like that tbh. They could have capitalised on the family friendly board game boom by making or buying their own settlers of catann boardgame or something like it, and it would totally be in their wheelhouse as physical games company.

In this case it would be smart for GW to buy up PP or Warmachine even if they don't use it, just sitting on it would be smart as it would prevent Asmodee/Embracer group aggressively expanding to compete with them more directly. Asmodee/embracer do seem to have taken an interest in GW's business model considering they opened their own black library.

derpherp wrote:

In this case it would be smart for GW to buy up PP or Warmachine even if they don't use it, just sitting on it would be smart as it would prevent Asmodee/Embracer group aggressively expanding to compete with them more directly. Asmodee/embracer do seem to have taken an interest in GW's business model considering they opened their own black library.

What, besides Dark Horse?

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
It strikes me as kind of funny. People are saying that $200 is a lot of money to start an army but if GW puts out a patrol for $140 that's just business as usual. GW charges $200+ for a box set of units at Christmas time that can't even be played as a stand alone force most of the time. Double standard much?

I mean, at least some of us who think $200 is too much for a starter also think GW prices are insane, so no, not really.

The $200 is a whole army for MK4 right? So this is them just trying to deal with SKU bloat in a different way. Why have a $80 starter and 5-10 other SKUs to buy when you can just get everything at once I'm sure is their thinking.

It also simplifies their whole production as they never have excess stock of single figures that didn't sell well as that, likely won't exist. So less warehouse space as well.

I'm not sure the benefits on cost savings for PP will end up outweighing the people that won't try the game to the steep buy in though.

 AduroT wrote:
Guildball definitely stole a little bit of Warmachine’s steam. It used their Focus mechanic and build a game around that, then added it’s own flare. It’s first big outing was an appearance at Warmachine Weekend. I forget if that was officially part of the event or just totally coincidentally happening at the same hotel on the same weekend in this other side room, but PP was not happy about it. The slowdown led to them panic releasing MK3 early to try and get back ahead of it, and well we know how the MK3 release went.

I heard it straight from the mouth of a former member of the PP design team that the rushed release of Warmachine Mk3 was done to try to scoop 40k 8th. Privateer Press wanted a big summer release with major hype behind it to try to grow their market share against 40k, with the hopes of "breaking through" and challenging GWs market dominance directly in real terms (i.e. not just in the imagination of internet fanbois). Rumors were pointing to GW gearing up to release a big new edition of 40k in the summer of 2017 and the powers that be at PP knew that Mk3 would be dead on arrival and fall by the wayside if they launched it the same summer as a new edition of 40k, so they pushed to release it the summer prior instead and rushed the development process (or more accurately, reconfigured the development process so they could release a half-baked incomplete new edition that would need at least another year of development to revise all the stats and rules necessary for players to be able to fully enjoy the game with their favorite factions and warcasters, etc.).

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Don't get me wrong. I think $200 is a large amount of money. I haven't seen what PP is selling in their starter sets. I presume 1 Warcaster, 2-3 Hvys (or 3-5 Light) jacks, an infantry unit (or 2) and, a solo (or 2). Going off old PP prices that comes close to what you'd pay, except if you got the 2 player boxset. The starter with Caster and Jacks about 50. An extra jack about 35. A max unit around 45 and a solo 12. Total about 137 in 2017 dollars.

Again I have no idea what's in a new starter but I'm willing to wait and see.

I'm more unhappy with the fact that the "Hordes" side of the game is being ignored until at least 2024.

Officially, the typical army starter is going to be more like 1 warcaster, 2 warjacks, 2 large units (6 models each - typically these are "line" or "standard" infantry type units), 2 small units (3 models each - usually these are going to be medium based "heavy infantry" units or support infantry units), 1 solo. This is based on the Orgoth starter, it will vary from Army to Army (the makeup of a Man O War/medium infantry heavy army for example will cause this to look different, but the expectation is that most if not all boxes will have 1 warcaster and 2 warjacks, with the rest being units and solos).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Monkeysloth wrote:
The $200 is a whole army for MK4 right? So this is them just trying to deal with SKU bloat in a different way. Why have a $80 starter and 5-10 other SKUs to buy when you can just get everything at once I'm sure is their thinking.

It also simplifies their whole production as they never have excess stock of single figures that didn't sell well as that, likely won't exist. So less warehouse space as well.

I'm not sure the benefits on cost savings for PP will end up outweighing the people that won't try the game to the steep buy in though.

Yes and no. Mk4 has three standard levels of play, "Skirmish" @ 50 pts, "Pitched Battle" @ 75 points, and "Grand Melee" or "Total War" @ 100 points (two different play formats at 100 points). The starter box gets you a small army for Skirmish play at 50 points. The general assumption is that "standard" play (i.e. steamroller play) is going to be the Pitched Battle at the 75 point level, as you can't field battle engines, colossals, or gargantuans in Skirmish at 50 points.

chaos0xomega wrote:


I heard it straight from the mouth of a former member of the PP design team that the rushed release of Warmachine Mk3 was done to try to scoop 40k 8th. Privateer Press wanted a big summer release with major hype behind it to try to grow their market share against 40k, with the hopes of "breaking through" and challenging GWs market dominance directly in real terms (i.e. not just in the imagination of internet fanbois). Rumors were pointing to GW gearing up to release a big new edition of 40k in the summer of 2017 and the powers that be at PP knew that Mk3 would be dead on arrival and fall by the wayside if they launched it the same summer as a new edition of 40k, so they pushed to release it the summer prior instead and rushed the development process (or more accurately, reconfigured the development process so they could release a half-baked incomplete new edition that would need at least another year of development to revise all the stats and rules necessary for players to be able to fully enjoy the game with their favorite factions and warcasters, etc.).

Honestly, I think they were right that releasing around the same time as 8th edition would have not been ideal but obviously, as hindsight being 20/20, rushing turned out to be much, much worse. Everyone always wants to do their new releases around gencon or middle of summer so there's always too much competition. Wonder if trying to release around the Holidays after 8th editions release (and not announcing at Gencon) would have worked well?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Monkeysloth wrote:
The $200 is a whole army for MK4 right? So this is them just trying to deal with SKU bloat in a different way. Why have a $80 starter and 5-10 other SKUs to buy when you can just get everything at once I'm sure is their thinking.

It also simplifies their whole production as they never have excess stock of single figures that didn't sell well as that, likely won't exist. So less warehouse space as well.

I'm not sure the benefits on cost savings for PP will end up outweighing the people that won't try the game to the steep buy in though.

Yes and no. Mk4 has three standard levels of play, "Skirmish" @ 50 pts, "Pitched Battle" @ 75 points, and "Grand Melee" or "Total War" @ 100 points (two different play formats at 100 points). The starter box gets you a small army for Skirmish play at 50 points. The general assumption is that "standard" play (i.e. steamroller play) is going to be the Pitched Battle at the 75 point level, as you can't field battle engines, colossals, or gargantuans in Skirmish at 50 points.

Oof, ya, that's pricy. Not really sure what they're thinking there. If that was a really nice 2 player battle box $200 wouldn't be too bad. Knight models does some really nice stuff at that prince range for Batman with punchout terrain peices.

 Monkeysloth wrote:
The $200 is a whole army for MK4 right? So this is them just trying to deal with SKU bloat in a different way. Why have a $80 starter and 5-10 other SKUs to buy when you can just get everything at once I'm sure is their thinking.

It also simplifies their whole production as they never have excess stock of single figures that didn't sell well as that, likely won't exist. So less warehouse space as well.

I'm not sure the benefits on cost savings for PP will end up outweighing the people that won't try the game to the steep buy in though.

Its definitely simpler for them. The 4 armies coming out over the next year will have exactly 6 SKUs each. Starter box ($200), Expansion box ($175), and then a third warcaster, the two warjacks from the first box individually, and a huge based (80mm) solo for each (because reasons). Also 6 mercs that will each work for 2 armies. That's it. That's the product line. 30 SKUs. If you want just one of the units or solos from one of the boxes, they'll eventually put them up as direct-only from their website (with the typical PP double-charge shipping cost, which is weird anyway, since I have paid for shipping from any company for years now), and the cost will not reflect the cost of buying them as part of the box sets. They're quite honest about upcharging people for them if you don't want the $375 in boxed sets. Even if you only want the second warcaster for your army, its all the models or pay a premium.

How this is going to work in the future is a mystery, since they mentioned that cadres will exist that can work for multiple armies in the same factions, but so far the plan is everything but the third warcaster and the two warjacks will be box-only or eventually direct from PP with an upcharge.

 Monkeysloth wrote:
The $200 is a whole army for MK4 right? So this is them just trying to deal with SKU bloat in a different way. Why have a $80 starter and 5-10 other SKUs to buy when you can just get everything at once I'm sure is their thinking.

It also simplifies their whole production as they never have excess stock of single figures that didn't sell well as that, likely won't exist. So less warehouse space as well.

I'm not sure the benefits on cost savings for PP will end up outweighing the people that won't try the game to the steep buy in though.

no, 200 is just the starter 50p at 22 models, and there lies the problems, how are you going to convince someone who has never seen or heard of this game to place 200usd on the counter for a game he/she might NOT enjoy?
cus after that, you have to pay 175usd for the army expansion that takes the force to 75p (another 15 models) and finaly add in a seperate warjack at 35-45usd to bring the force up to the targeted field of 100p.


Beginner bracket by logic should be 20-25p and be in the range of 50-70usd, and the only exuse they give is that they want to limit the SKUs in order for shops to carry the whole mk4 product line, So instead of the traditional custom slow grow you are getting a preset product.

And in todays world, fewer and fewer is going to be able to afford entry points for games that is above 70usd unless it is a two player box.

So, in short, there's not even going to be any real variation in what you field or face without some serious cash output or already owning Legacy stuff(which may not even have their rules available at launch and are excluded from most of the new features).

 Platuan4th wrote:
So, in short, there's not even going to be any real variation in what you field or face without some serious cash output or already owning Legacy stuff(which may not even have their rules available at launch and are excluded from most of the new features).

There will be minor variations in warjacks and casters as they will eventualy sell 1 or 2 variations of the expanion box and 2-3 months after the box deals has been released one can order induvidual models from PP webshop, but not the level of choice that mk1-mk3 has today, and that is how PP wants it to be in mk4 Primal. Less models variation, easier to remember what the models do for the opponent is their reasoning.

And yes, legacy mode is not the primary fokus of MK4, Primal is.

The unit preview shows the new Cygnar warjacks each have 64 variants. Maybe a bunch of them won’t be seen as worthwhile, and it’s not equivalent to having 64 different warjack units, but it is equivalent to a bunch of ‘old’ jack selections rolled into one.

I hope the models allow for different stances…

Racking spells, command cards, the expansion SKU talked about as giving you options, and some units (hopefully not just the new 80mm solos) can be taken by multiple armies/cadres/things in a faction all give additional variability between tabletop armies.

I’m not saying it’s super awesome, but it’s better than it appears at first.

I expect things to change over time, if things work out, as their roadmap plus some ‘Hordes factions’ probably puts them out to 2024. At that point it’ll likely be more themed armies for existing factions with more crossover units.

The $200 army is too much, they should break that SKU into two. A 25pts force (Warcaster, 2 Warjacks, and 3-6 dudes). An affordable way to get into the game. Then have the rest of what is currently in the SKU as a separate expansion box. OK it will add 4 extra SKU's, but it makes the game have a lower entry point, which is a far better way to entice people, also there are some people (myself included) who only want to play Warmachine as a small Skirmish game.

Offering a smaller way to start the game should be a no brainer... the $200 starter sets have me puzzled. Just think to do demo games, would mean buying 2, so $400. I recently picked up 2 MKIII battlegroups at £20 each, so £40 to do demo games.

 Monkeysloth wrote:
The $200 is a whole army for MK4 right? So this is them just trying to deal with SKU bloat in a different way. Why have a $80 starter and 5-10 other SKUs to buy when you can just get everything at once I'm sure is their thinking.

It also simplifies their whole production as they never have excess stock of single figures that didn't sell well as that, likely won't exist. So less warehouse space as well.

I'm not sure the benefits on cost savings for PP will end up outweighing the people that won't try the game to the steep buy in though.

I feel like the $200 army boxes are OK - but they really should come up with some sort of cheaper buy-in. PP needs a low cost way to get the new material minis in people's hands (for people rightly skeptical of the quality - given PP track record) and a way to let a newbie pick up the game and try it out with a friend at a much lower commitment level than "we both buy a $200 army straight off."

Maybe just something like a $100 box that contains two super tiny armies (Like say a warcaster, solo and two light jacks for each side) - but the box is merc themed so you'd be able to use the included units with whatever army box you do wind up buying should you like the game. (assuming Mercs is still going to be a thing and you can swap units into an army anymore).

It is hard to sell such an investment to new players, especially as they can see what other companies offer for a much smaller sum (A Song of Ice and Fire starters come to mind). Games need cheap starters and cheap ways of bulking the army out with grunts, they can't consist exclusively of very expensive character-like pieces.

I’m struggling to find images of the starter sets. Can anyone provide a link?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’m struggling to find images of the starter sets. Can anyone provide a link?

There is no images of mk4 starters yet if that is what you seek, just a description of them in the press release that is linked in OP under the SKU section. (roadmap is allso in the press release)

Ah fair. That’ll explain why I can find them!

Yeah, this was not a strong launch of a product, even in beta form.

But, on price, honestly I've been paying far more from GW for far less models in the Necromunda line.

And, if talk is to be believed, Army lists within factions no longer include a bunch of free extra models/units. So at least initially, fewer models counts as more points on the table. That's always been a bit of WM's thing.

I think the whole Line of Sight media dropping discreet coverage of Warmachine may have been the straw that broke the camel's back in terms of marketing, so they had to push this out the door before they had even renders of both starter sets, or production quality level prints to send out, or even time for people who received previews to fully paint them.

Every time there's a problem, the answer seems to be: it'll be better at GenCon. So maybe wait until GenCon? This may be getting ahead of GenCon to try and get some of the pre-con news cycle to themselves. At gencon, media embargoes to previewers can drop and they show their cleaned and painted models. PP can run demos and show off starters, etc.

200$ Starter is ridiculous, they should start with Sets under 100$....

They do not know the competitors on the Market...

Is it a $200 starter? Or is it a $400 starter?

After all, if I spend $200, and no one else locally does….what exactly has been started?

Knock them on the price, but GW does get their starter sets right, as they contain enough to self demo the game.

This also feeds back to my much earlier speculation regarding the salt PP face. And again I’m not saying it as fact or proof etc. But Mk1 was considerably cheaper to get into than GW,,which fed into the Not GW Appeal of the game.

The Heresy boxed set is of course $99 more expensive. But comes with a ridiculous number of models, all but the Terminators are brand new and all are pretty damned spanky.

There’s enough in there for two people to at least learn the ropes, and really only one of them need sink cash to see if it’s for them.

MkIV seems to be asking me to not only drop $200, but possibly double that, or persuade a friend to drop their own $200, just to get started.

It does seem somewhat ambitious.

Screw starter sets at this point in time with, new production cast model, new materials and unproven quality they should sell an individual jack box for people to check what is this magnets and 3D printing all about.

No way people regardless of old and new clients is getting into a starter of this price blindfolded.

Reviews in gencon may be well fine and dandy but in the EU they better up their game and start attending and invest on events.

Its a completely new product so should be handled as such.

You can say many things about other companies starters but most of the times you are familiar on what you are going to get that is not the case here.

I think releasing $200 starters is fine for the existing audience who already know they're going all in. GW does it all the time. The problem is that if they want to grow the game, surely by this point they've learnt people are reluctant to even through $10 at a system which isn't GW if they're wary none around them will be playing it?

I don't know, PP aren't the brightest sparks but I don't know if they're that naïve. Metal became untenable so they must have their finger on the price pulse at least a little. Warcaster had a pretty good spread of different starter sets at different prices around... $60-75 iirc? I'd be surprised if they didn't do something in that range eventually, or maybe Warcaster's lack of success (outside Kickstarter) is what made them think they can just lean on the diehard whales.